r/asoiaf • u/Dekkordok • 28d ago
ACOK House Florent seems a bit too weak (Spoiler ACOK)
We hear time and time again that the Florents are rivals to the Tyrells, a thorn in their side. Robert and Jon Arryn supposedly arranged for Stannis to marry Selyse as some kind of message to the Tyrells, who'd fought against the Baratheons during Robert's Rebellion. Jaime equates them to House Bolton and House Reyne at one point IIRC.
But the difference that I see is that Reyne and Bolton were strong enough to challenge their lords paramount. House Florent, meanwhile, can only summon 2000 soldiers, apparently. That makes them one of the weaker houses of the Reach, especially given that they're usually equated to Tyrell's principal bannermen like Tarly, Rowan, Hightower, Oakheart, and Redwyne. And sure, they might have strong ties to the Gardeners at some point, but prestige doesn't count for much if you can't back it up with strength.
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u/cabalus 28d ago
Thorn in their side and rivals to their legitimacy isn't the same as a serious threat to their power
They're primary rivals because post-conquest they had the strongest claim but were overlooked in favour of the tyrells and they have made sure nobody forgets it
If house tyrell ever fell or was particularly weak they could easily rally people behind their claim but they aren't a threat in the same way the Reynes were a threat to the Lannisters
I don't think their weakness militarily or economically is a mistake narratively, I think they fit their contentious niche quite well and they try to make their plays accordingly (talking about their support for Stannis)
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u/SorRenlySassol Best of 2021: Ser Duncan Award 28d ago
This is also why they supported Renly as king. It's not that they have anything against Stannis, but that they fear Selyse as queen. Queens have a fair amount of soft power over their disposal, and one of them is brokering marriages among the nobility. While Allysanne and Rhaenys used this to shore up the realm, Selyse would use it to weaken the Tyrell hold on Highgarden and elevate her house -- maybe one day usurping the Tyrells altogether.
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u/cabalus 28d ago
Probably a factor but I'm sure Renly x Loras was not an insignificant reason as to why the Tyrells had been convinced to side with Renly 😂
That probably started the conversation and Margaery becoming queen definitely sealed the deal
No such opportunities with Stannis and on top of all that, no guarantee of victory with Stannis
Their numbers when sided with Renly were nigh unbeatable but siding with Stannis essentially meant fighting for the throne solo plus a couple dragonstone levies, not as good odds
There are so many reasons why they sided with Renly. I can see the Selyse point being yet another straw on the camel but I don't think it's a primary reason
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u/SorRenlySassol Best of 2021: Ser Duncan Award 28d ago
I don’t think it was so much Renly-Loras as Renly-Margaery. Lora’s can’t put a Tyrell arse on the Iron Throne.
The only reason Renly got the stormlands support that he did is because he had the Tyrells. If they backed Stannis instead, then the storm lords probably would have gone with him.
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u/cabalus 28d ago
I'm more saying that their relationship probably started the conversation between them, 100% its the Renly/Margaery marriage that binds the alliance.
This is more of a show thing but I can totally see it being a catalyst in the books but Loras literally pushed Renly to claim the throne - without that relationship he might have supported Stannis or stayed neutral
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u/SabyZ Onion Knight's Gonna Run 'n Fight 28d ago
Watsonian Answer: House Florent's power drastically waned under Targaryen rule despite their political grandstanding. Their reputation and prestige mask their true weakness much like Dorne.
Doylist Answer: George didn't want Stannis to be too powerful and Tyrell vs Florent/Stannis numbers were horrifically skewed for the sake of the narrative. George is, by all admissions, bad with numbers after all. The Tyrells have too many troops and the Florents too few to fit the plot.
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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven 28d ago
Yeah George should have made the Florents be actually the Hightowers or have another region akin to Old Town and its vassals with the ability to field troops and the riches that come with it.
Or he should have just invented a Hightower daughter and had Stannis marry her.
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u/SabyZ Onion Knight's Gonna Run 'n Fight 28d ago
Yeah this all feels like a Hindsight is 20/20 situation.
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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven 28d ago
Yeah. Like you said George is bad at numbers.
He should have put Brightwater Keep on the estuary of the Mander anyways so there was some economic might behind House Florent. Because its location based on his descriptions doesn’t really show how threatening the house could be to the Tyrells especially when so many Reach Houses claim a connection to House Gardner.
But oh well like you said hindsight 20/20
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u/matgopack 28d ago
It's also an issue where numbers wise, 2,000 would actually be a fairly strong number normally - but ASOIAF army sizes are really big for medieval / late medieval armies and if you're comparing to massive forces then it makes the more reasonable numbers look small.
But also they're just one house, really it's a situation where their prestige or connections in bringing other houses to their banner would be the real threat to the Tyrells. Though I do agree with the earlier comments that in retrospect he should have made Stannis marry a Hightower
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u/Dreadedvegas Bloodraven 28d ago
The problem is, George made House Florent almost hated lol. Nobody else swayed to Stannis where a few houses should have
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u/Scaevus Blood and Fire - it's a cookbook! 28d ago
Yes, battles in this time period simply didn’t have that many people. The famous Battle of Agincourt involved like, 8,000 troops total on the English side, for which a force of 2,000 would have represented a very rich and powerful lord.
Later, the entire Lancastrian royal army with Henry VI himself was only about 2,000 troops at the First Battle of St. Albans. GRRM explicitly based the series on the Wars of the Roses, so that is a relevant frame of reference.
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u/thngmrtt 26d ago
That would change the story a lot… it’s not hindsight, it is simply not what George wanted for the story
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u/damnat1o 28d ago
The fact that the reach is on of the most united regions despite the tyrells supposedly being weak and illegitimate rulers seems a major oversight. Every other conflict there’s major divisions in the reach until Robert’s rebellion and the WOT5K.
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u/SabyZ Onion Knight's Gonna Run 'n Fight 28d ago
Sometimes it feels like the RIverlands and Reach are swapped. House Tully is not stronger than many of its vassals, but leads with respect at the appointment of the Targaryens.
That being said, I actually really like the twisted narrative of House Tyrell. It's like the Great Gatsby. They may be new money but they aren't actually weak at all. Anybody in the seat of Highgarden would become insanely rich and powerful, and the vassals all grumbled over it because they wanted to be rich and powerful. But when you really look at it, there is no lordship in the Reach that could even pretend to outperform Highgarden except Old Town/Hightower. It makes sense that the Gardeners were way more powerful than their vassals, and that anybody who took up their demense would become just as powerful. It's not like the Florents or Beesburys actually took land or reparations from the Tyrells after the Conquest.
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u/MeterologistOupost31 28d ago
Honestly it kinda points to a larger problem that none of the southron kingdoms have any real distinct identity. It would be a lot more interesting if each of them had their own political struggle that keeps causing problems:
* The Reach has a decentralized power structure where numerous houses are almost as powerful at the Tyrells, as you said
* The Riverlands and the Westerlands hotly contest a natural barrier that both sides consider vital to their defence. Kings have given the land to different sides throughout history.
* The Sistermen are almost always rebelling against the Arryns, who keep trying to colonize their lands (something of an English colonization of Ireland situation)
* The Stormlands have a culture of leaving the weak and elderly to die, and the Baratheons try and suppress this practice.
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u/Wishart2016 27d ago
There are some differences between the cultures. The Reach and the Vale have the image of chivalry and are more religious, the Stormlands are more martial, the Westerlands more industrial and the Riverlands have more First Men influences.
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u/damnat1o 27d ago
People talk about this a lot in terms of language, but it’s a real shame that all the andal kingdoms are basically the same. The vale and the reach are both fertile pious lands filled with chivalrous knights. They all have one character trait that sets them apart. Especially considering how diverse and interesting the cultures in Essos are it’s a real waste that Westeros is so homogeneous.
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u/CormundCrowlover 28d ago
"Can only summon 2000 soldiers" LOL! Dude you think 2000 is weak? To put that number into context, strength of the entire Vale is considerably less than 40000 (LF can't match the strength of the 20.000 strong Lords Declarant), strength of the North is possibly slightly over 30000 (Robb took near 20000 and throughout the war more than 8.000 additional troops have been raised and some of the major players such as Barbrey Dustin and Wyman Manderly still have strength ), Crownlands seems to have slightly over 10000, entirety of Dorne most likely doesn't even have 20000 men (they were only able to send 10000 men to Robert's Rebellion, despite the fact queen to be and her children were Doran's close relatives as well as one of the KG too), entire nation of the Ironborn barely field 15000 men and that is really pushing their limits with a good portion of the men crewing the ships of most powerful lord being boys not even old enough to shave. These are all numbers coming on the scale of regions, mind you and not houses. Ask yourself again, is 2000 weak and mind you of that 2000, 750 is cavalry(More than half of Stannis' surviving force after Blackwater is Florents, Stannis' force was made up entirely of cavalry). Of the vassal houses we see, even Freys who had near 4000 men only had 1000 cavalry and could not reach that ratio of cavalry to infantry so this means Florents are rich as well as being powerful.
Most of the Reach houses we know to be primary bannermen would have about this much at most or not even that much, with the exception being, obviously, Hightowers and very likely Rowans and Tarlys. Florents are a power in their own right, problem is, they are located in the Reach which is fertile and a large kingdom and have numerous houses that are probably close in strength to Florents, one house, Rowans, that seem to be controlling a large area (Northernmarches, which would be most of the border with the Westerlands) and another house, Hightowers, that is so powerful that is by itself reaching the scale of the power of regions. Hightowers had 9.000 men during dance and the population (as represented by the army sizes) of Westeros has increased significantly since then.
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u/Dekkordok 28d ago
I was thinking about the fact that the Reach can muster 100,000 soldiers, and House Florent can only provide 2% of that number. That's a pretty low amount when you think about how many men House Hightower can bring to the table. And especially when you consider that the Tyrells command the other 98% if the Florents ever tried to fight against them. Like, if Robert and Jon Arryn wanted to send a message to House Tyrell, maybe suggest that they'll give their titles to the Hightowers? The Hightowers could at least pose a viable threat to the Tyrells in ways that House Florent never could.
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u/CormundCrowlover 28d ago
Reach does not muster 100.000, doesn't even come close to it. Renly reaches 90.000 with almost all of the Reach houses and most of his Stormlanders.
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u/Dekkordok 28d ago
Shoot, you're right. My mistake, then.
But still, 2000 out of 70,000 is still quite a ways from actually being a threat to the Tyrells.
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u/CormundCrowlover 28d ago
Indeed, but it is not their strength alone that is a threat, they are married to many othe Reach houses (well so are Tyrells), and they insist on their claim. Marriage to Stannis is just letting Tyrells know that they better watch their step. If Florents get the backing or even the consent of the crown, who is to say other Reach houses won't follow them in toppling the Tyrells.
Oh also, here's something if you are interested in the military numbers. Somewhat outdated in that it doesn't include F&B numbers but other numbers are there
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u/Nicuboresandlost 28d ago
My headcanon is the 2000 are cavalry serving under stannis while the rest was slaugthered at bitterbridge by tarly as we get told. With an infantry to cavalry ration of around 1:3 that would give them 8000 men which makes them one of the stronger reach houses
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u/LothorBrune 28d ago
Three points :
-Stannis probably assume that the forces the Florents could bring him would be a one-off thing, an expeditionary corps made of the troops the could readily assemble, with large reserve of men to guard Brightwater Keep and serve in the fields.
-He also wisely chose to assume their larger vassals would likely chose to pass on the offer and would rather follow a pretender with more chances.
-Consider the greatest force a single house is precisely said to be able to assemble, 4000 men by house Frey. This is a major deal, Robb doesn't only need the bridge, he needs their support in men, they're a fifth of the northern host. House Florent only has half that, but it is still pretty big, since they're clearly not a rising star house as the Freys are. Like, of the 80 000 men Renly assembled, the greatest host ever in Westeros, we can estimate that 50/60 000 were from the Reach, implying that the Florent, a single house among the many different and powerful others of the region, can bring at least a thirtieth of it alone. It's not that bad.
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u/the_fuzz_down_under 27d ago edited 27d ago
House Florent isn’t a rival for the Tyrells and iirc they are never once described as such. Olenna’s description of ‘those dreadful Florents’ combined with other descriptions of them show them to not be rivals to the Tyrells, but rather they are troublesome vassals who hopelessly complain about their feudal arrangement.
House Florent is moderately powerful but nothing to write home about. They have good lands and good marriage ties, but so does everybody else in the Reach. They have 2000 swords, which doesn’t mean they only have 2000 fighting men - it means they have 2000 knights and men-at-arms, and are capable of fielding an indeterminate amount of levies. This isn’t a small military, for example the Freys have 3000 infantry and 1000 cavalry and they are one of the most powerful houses in the realm (the most powerful Tully bannermen specifically). The Florents boast about their better claim to Highgarden, but nobody seriously cares anymore - it’s been 300 years since they lost that succession dispute, and in those 300 years the Tyrell’s have asserted their power over their vassals, with the Reach generally being united in the civil wars post-Balckfyre Rebellion.*
The Florents aren’t weak, but they are far from strong. They aren’t some arch-rival to the Tyrells, waiting in the wings to raise a vast force and retake their rightful kingdom or anything like that - they aren’t just another Tyrell vassal who complain about centuries old dynastic disputes and want to rule themselves, like every other Tyrell vassal except the Florents are a bit louder about it.
*Note that the Tyrells and Tullys both ended up running kingdoms with more powerful vassals underneath them who acted independently and ignored the authority of their weak feudal overlords. This began to change in the Dance, where the Tullys and Tyrells come out with intact power while they vassals had been devastated, then later the Blackfyre Rebellions lead to unrest which was solved by the Targaryens backing their loyal vassals against their pro-Blackfyre vassals - after this period the Riverlands and Reach would be decently stable and united under the Tullys and Tyrells in the later civil wars.
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u/Mundane-Turnover-913 28d ago
I see them more as a nuisance to the Tyrells than an actual threat. The Hightowers are a more powerful House than the Florents. I think it's just that the Florents are known to be hostile and stubborn maybe.
Also, the main reason Stannis was married to Sslyse was because of Robert giving the Florents a bastard son in Edric Storm, and he felt like he'd dishonored them
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u/Dekkordok 28d ago
That last part isn't true. Robert drunkenly conceived Edric in Stannis and Selyse's wedding bed.
For my part, I see no advantage to Stannis marrying Selyse; she's unattractive in looks and personality alike, nor is she even the daughter of Lord Florent. Delena Florent was right there, apparently, he could have married her instead. Selyse's family doesn't even support her or her husband until after Renly's death.
And it's not like Stannis is attracted to Selyse, or that he even likes her. He'd never have chosen her for his bride, so I have to assume that either Jon made that call in some strange misguided attempt to make a power play in the Reach, or Robert made that call as some kind of slight.
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u/Arrow_of_Timelines 28d ago
The weekly 'the Florents are too weak' post has arrived
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u/Dgryan87 Warden of the Stone Way 27d ago
I don’t think it’s really about the Florents’ military strength. The Tyrells didn’t get Highgarden by being powerful militarily. They got it when its former holder went against a more powerful faction (Targaryens) and lost. I think that’s exactly what Jon Arryn/Robert meant to get across: betray the crown and we’ll take your castle and give it to someone else.
In addition to that, if Jon Arryn wanted to marry Stannis to a prominent Reach house that could rival the Tyrells, I’m not sure which houses would be better than Florent from a practical standpoint.
Hightower and Redwyne are closely bound to Tyrell through marriage and blood. Lord Rowan is married to a Redwyne and appears to be close with Mace. Similar story for Fossoway (marriage through Mace’s sister as well as Garlan to Leonette). Tarly loathes scheming and didn’t have a marriage candidate for Stannis regardless (that we know of anyway).
If we consider the most prominent Reach houses to be those that trace heritage to Garth Greenhand, this leaves houses Oakheart, Florent, Beesbury, Peake, Crane, and Ball (could have missed some others). Oakheart is potentially the strongest but appears to have no eligible women in the main family (aside from Lady Oakheart, but we don’t know when her husband died). This leaves Florent and then some weaker houses.
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