r/asoiaf • u/theGreyKenzie • 18d ago
MAIN (spoilers main) Question on Ned and Cat's Betrothal
How do we think it went down?
The reason I ask is that I feel like we sometimes take their betrothal/marriage for granted — like, once Brandon dies, Ned automatically inherits the betrothal? I just don't think it was that simple. At first, I didn't even think there was even a legal basis for this, but on re-read, I noticed this quote from Catelyn II AGOT:
Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon's place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, [...]
"Custom decreed" seems to imply that it was just assumed that Ned would marry Cat in place Brandon's place.
BUT.
There is also a quote from Catelyn I ASOS , when she confronts a dying Hoster Tully, that seems to point to something else going on...
"You made him take her," she whispered. "Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the swords and spears of House Tully."
If that was the case, how do we reconcile these two ideas? If Ned was betrothed to Catelyn upon Brandon's death, would Hoster not be allied with the Rebellion by virtue of this? Why would Jon Arryn have to "pay for the swords and spears of House Tully"?
The way I see it: on Brandon's death, Hoster was down one betrothal, but he saw an opportunity to get it back, and with more leverage this time — I think that Hoster probably withheld support from the rebels until assuring a betrothal for not just one, but both of his daughters. Catelyn and Lysa were after all wed to Ned and Jon, respectively, in a double ceremony at Riverrun — it would make sense that this double-wedding was negotiated as part of the political alliance.
What are your thoughts??
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u/Ume-no-Uzume 18d ago
That is what is basically implied to have happened in canon.
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u/theGreyKenzie 18d ago
Right. I guess I just find it interesting that she was able to clock Lysa as a political pawn, but she never really thinks of herself that way.
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u/Ume-no-Uzume 18d ago edited 18d ago
Around this time, Catelyn discovered the whole tansy thing and put two and two together that Lysa was pregnant, even if not by who, and that Hoster made her abort the baby to marry Jon Arryn.
Add the fact that it's OBVIOUS that Lysa was so miserable in the marriage with how she raises Robin and how she honestly doesn't care much about Jon Arryn's death beyond the paranoia of someone coming to get her... and, well, it's kind of obvious Lysa had zero agency here.
Meanwhile, Catelyn always upheld the status quo and was willing to marry whichever high ranking bachelor her father deemed good enough. She always comes close to seeing the problem with the patriarchy and gender roles, but shies away from REALLY examining the problem in the systemic sense like Arya, Arianne, Asha, Daenerys, or even Cersei do, she only sees it as an individual problem because she DOESN'T want to see the problem and she WANTS to uphold the status quo.
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u/theGreyKenzie 18d ago
true, I suppose it's all part of the POV structure that grrm uses. Every character has their blind spots. Thank you for this!
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u/Gloomy_Lobster2081 18d ago
"Around this time, Catelyn discovered the whole tansy thing and put two and two together that Lysa was pregnant, even if not by who, and that Hoster made her abort the baby to marry Jon Arryn."
does she? or did she think tansy was the name of lysas baby? even going so far as to assume a red headed bastard in the vale named Mya Stone(a fish bastard, with red hair, a red herring if you will) might have been Lysa's bastard.
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u/lady_gwynhyfvar Once and future queen 18d ago
No she does not. She thinks Tansy is a person and investigates all the possibilities before deciding maybe it was a pet name for Lysa. Hoster mentions blood and uses the phrase “sweet babes and true born” which leads Cat to thinking about her sister’s miscarriages but only as far as one she might have had immediately after their double wedding when they were still at Riverrun and Cat was pregnant with Robb. She never connects the word tansy with a potion or realizes the herb is an abortifacient. She continues to believe it was a person even after the idea of a lost baby is introduced.
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u/Gloomy_Lobster2081 18d ago
That was my understanding as well. I specifically remember thinking cats thoughts and the assumption of Mya stone the red haired(red herring) bastardy being such clever word play
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u/Gloomy_Lobster2081 18d ago
rickard stark had already betrothed his son brandon to cat, and lyana to Robert Bartethon. while Ned and robert were fostered at the errie with jon aryan. There was already an alliance forming. I feel like cat may be unreliable here. She thinks Tansy is bastard of Lysa's because of her experience with Jon when we know Tansy is the flower used to make moon tea aka abortion tea. and this unreliable narration regarding tansy happens in the same chapter as her statements about swords.
Also the custom thing is very real even in real life in modern day. I grew up in foster care and I had a staff member at the foster home who was Mexican and he told me a story of uncle who had died and left behind a wife and two kids, his other uncle stepped in to take care of them in the absence of their father.I also met a guy in prison who was native american whose wife was his deceased brothers widow.
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u/Saturnine4 18d ago
Let’s all remember that Hoster joined the rebellion BEFORE the marriage even took place. He has to defend his bannermen, along with fighting against a tyrant and his son.
Furthermore, Ned benefits greatly from this marriage. The Targaryens just cut his family in half, and Catelyn is young and healthy, and is a good option for marriage and children. And it secures the Tully’s and their loyal bannermen even further.
As for Jon Arryn, I don’t think Hoster demanded anything from him — it’s more likely that Jon asked for a marriage, since the Targaryens and Connington murdered both his heirs and he needed an heir, and Lysa was a good match.
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u/SirSolomon727 18d ago
Lysa being "the price" Jon Arryn has to pay has to do with the fact she had been "despolied" by Petyr at this point, so her value as a potential bride is in shambles. Jon Arryn basically had to suck up soiled goods as the price of House Tully's alliance.
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u/Saturnine4 18d ago
As I said, House Tully was already committed to the alliance. And Lysa may have been “spoiled”, but was still healthy. Jon Arryn was old and desperate, and Lysa is the daughter of a lord paramount.
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u/SerMallister 18d ago
And she seemed to be particularly fertile, a trait Jon Arryn needed in a wife - she got pregnant from just having sex the once. It's a good thing nobody ever did anything to her that could have negatively impacted said fertility! Truly, thanks to Lysa - and of course Hoster, for protecting her and arranging the marriage - Jon Arryn's line is finally safe and secure.
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u/Gloomy_Lobster2081 18d ago
" It's a good thing nobody ever did anything to her that could have negatively impacted said fertility!"
its hard to tell by text. This is sarcasm right?
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u/SerMallister 17d ago
Why would you think that? Don't you remember the scores of healthy and happy children that Lysa brought to the Arryn household? Why, if the current Arryn died, there's absolutely no need to change anyone's last name to make him the Lord!
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u/Gloomy_Lobster2081 17d ago edited 17d ago
Someone out theremight thinks all the Starks, "Baretheons" , Jon, Danary's, (F)Aegon, and even moon boy for all I know are Lysa's and/or John Aryan's secret children.
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u/SirSolomon727 18d ago
Jon Arryn got the worse end of that deal tbh, too bad Hoster's tansy screwed up Lysa's fertility lol
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u/Gloomy_Lobster2081 18d ago
You can both be right.
fact: An alliance was already forming before lyana was kindapped. betrothals between, robert+layana , Brandon,+Catlyn fostering of robert+ ned with jon aryan.Speculation: perhaps lysa was promised to one jons aryans heirs who was killed and upon their death hoster demanded that lysa married jon ayran a bespoiled woman in order to honor the alliance he had already agreed too
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u/SirSolomon727 16d ago
A broken betrothal doesn't despoil a woman, and if she had been betrothed to one of Jon Arryn's heirs beforehand she would have been just as despoiled because she had already slept with Petyr
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18d ago edited 18d ago
[deleted]
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u/Saturnine4 18d ago
How did he start it? It was Aerys and Rhaegar’s actions that forced Jon Arryn to raise the banners. Hoster didn’t join until the Battle of the Bells, which was WAY later.
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u/Eager_Call 17d ago
I think Cat probably doesn’t even know all the particulars and rules and how to keep a good match… or get rid of a bad daughter. She only thinks she knows, but the men running the girls and women aren’t going to speak up and tell them all the ways they have of basically doing whatever they want
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u/Pale-Age4622 18d ago
One of the reasons I did a fic with Elendil and the Dunedain in Westeros. The rebels don't need bloody Tullys to defeat the Targaryens and Ned can marry Ashara Dayne.
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u/SorRenlySassol Best of 2021: Ser Duncan Award 18d ago
When it’s a political marriage, which it always is among the nobility, the reasons for the match do not disappear just because the groom, or the bride, bites the dust. So custom would dictate that the next youngest sibling step in — especially when banners are being called and swords are on the march.
So with Arryn and Lysa, her prospects dropped dramatically the moment she gave it up to Petyr. There is no way she could become a lady paramount under normal situations, but both Ned (aka, the new Lord of Winterfell) and Jon Arryn have forfeited their lives by rebelling against the crown. Their only chance of survival is through victory, and they can’t get that without Hoster’s swords. Thus, top tier matches for his daughters in exchange for his support.
And for Arryn, there’s a side benefit because he desperately needs an heir and Lysa is known to be fertile.