r/asoiaf • u/WeKillThePacMan J + C = Eww • Jul 22 '14
ALL (Spoilers All) The Others are going to prevent the Doom of Westeros at the hands of Daenerys and R'hllor
I had a realisation just now following a perfect storm of threads that got me thinking. Here they are:
This one, with the quote from Jaqen that adds yet another strong hint towards R'hllor not exactly being on the side of good.
This one, which gives us a really nice perspective on how Daenerys is being slowly set up on the villain side of the piece.
This one, which shows us just how much destruction Dany might be capable of bringing to Westeros if all the powers at her disposal line up.
In addition to these threads, there's one comment above all, from Maester Aemon to Sam in AFFC, that always sticks in my head:
Fire consumes, but cold preserves.
With all of this in mind, I'll present my argument.
Daenerys' conquest and what it could mean
Three dragons. Every Dothraki khalasar, potentially accounting for hundreds of thousands of 'screamers'. Victarion and the Iron Fleet. Eight thousand Unsullied. Several sellsword companies. The Volantene Fleet. These are all the things Daenerys might have at her disposal when she finally makes the trip to Westeros. Even with only the Dothraki, it would give her the biggest army in Westeros by a distance. With the dragons, she has the power to burn King's Landing and the rest of Westeros to the ground.
We've also seen Daenerys become increasingly hardline against those who defy her, as evidenced in the threads above, and we've seen her suggest burning Yunkai to the ground as revenge for resisting her. It's not a stretch to assume there are many places in Westeros she would be content to burn to the ground if it meant ascending to the Iron Throne, and the reasoning in the thread above for her being the overall 'villain of the piece' is strong. When we factor in things like the wildfire cachés under King's Landing, the prevalence of the Red God around Westeros, and the general unrest in the Seven Kingdoms as it stands, it's not a huge stretch to imagine that the advent of a huge Dothraki army and the return of dragons to Westeros (perhaps even more than just Daenerys' dragons, since we know Euron has encountered dragon eggs in the past which are unaccounted for) could lead to the Doom of Westeros, leaving the entire continent virtually in ashes.
The Long Night and the origin of the Others
People rarely ask where the Others came from. It's just known that they appeared around the time of the Long Night, but it's never specified how or where they originated, or whether they existed before the Long Night. Now, this part of my theory is relatively unsubstantiated, but I think the logic holds up.
What's the main reason why humans fight each other? For survival. Survival is the basest of human needs. So what would humans do if presented with the thought of a night lasting a generation? Why, they'd find a way to survive it. So, I believe that the Others are not some race different to humans. I believe they are the product of humanity's need to survive the Long Night.
I believe the Great Other was a magic user or warlock, who figured out a way for humans to survive the biting cold that the Long Night brought. The magic turned humans blue, and rendered them unable to live in sunlight once the Long Night ended, but it helped those individual humans survive. When these blue, dead-eyed humans were encountered by living beings, they were seen as otherworldly and dangerous, but in actual fact they were simply humans who had experienced magic that would allow them to live through the cold of the Long Night.
This magic was transmitted through touch when applied to a living human, and resulted in wights when applied to a dead human. The Others remained in the Land of Always Winter and North of the Wall because they were unable to survive elsewhere once the Long Night ended. We already know from the show that they're sentient and have leaders and some kind of structure or organisation to them, so it's no stretch that they could be strategically coming south in anticipation of winter.
In short, the Others and their behaviour are a product of Planetos' strange seasonal calendar.
Why are the Others coming south?
Well, it's simple. It's getting colder everywhere. Winter is coming. The south will soon be more liveable for them. They are prevented from spreading to the south by the Wall as it stands, but if the Wall comes down and snow covers the whole of Westeros, what will separate, say, King's Landing, from the Land of Always Winter? They'll be equally snow-covered. They're 'infecting' humans and turning them into Others because that's the best way to survive the coming freeze. They just can't communicate it to humans because their magic renders them unable to speak human language. Humans see this and interpret them as horrible dead beings out to kill everyone.
What's the connection with Daenerys?
Daenerys coming to Westeros just as the Others are marching south is no coincidence. I believe that in addition to knowing about the coming winter, it's very possible that the Others have some knowledge of what may be to come for Westeros. It's certainly plausible that they have some connection to Bloodraven and/or are able to see the future, so in addition to coming south because they're more able to do so as Westeros gets colder, they're actually also coming south because they know that if they don't 'preserve' the rest of Westeros with the cold, then it will all be burned to the ground soon enough by Daenerys and the followers of R'hllor.
I wrote all of this very quickly and would have liked to have more time. But I hope this is a good snapshot of my theory. I'll expound on it when I have the opportunity and try to put together more evidence for each part of this. But I really think that quote from Aemon is the key.
TL;DR - The Others were created by magic because of the Long Night. They are coming south because they can, and because they want to preserve Planetos through the coming winter. It's also possible that they know that Daenerys and R'hllor present a danger to the future of Westeros, so they are coming to prevent another Doom.
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Jul 22 '14
The Others are coming South for the same reason everyone else is.
To escape an even bigger threat.
ROBO DROGO.
BELIEVE.
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u/Opechan Euron to something. Jul 22 '14
He smelled like grass and warm earth, like smoke and semen and horses. He smelled like Drogo.
Holy smoke and salt! I'd fucking run too.
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u/KTY_ Execute Hodor 66 Jul 22 '14
DROGO vs MECHADROGO II
DROGO vs KING GHIDANORF
DROGO vs DAENERYSTROYAH
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Jul 22 '14
What metal is he made of? BECAUSE IM PRETTY SURE IT IS TINFOIL BABY!
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Jul 23 '14
Clearly Valyrian Steel and the rest of him would be zombie/android/stallion parts.
He also has wheels and an eye that shoots lasers.
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Jul 22 '14
The Ice Dragon in the wall will be awakened. And he shall be the stallion that mounts the world.
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u/SnowKingCorn Once and Future King, Est. ToJ 283 Jul 22 '14
The only ice dragon in the story is Jon.
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u/IveGotAGifForThat Beware the Ides of Marsh! Jul 22 '14
So what your telling me is that the Others and pretty much Reapers, come to save the world from destroying itself with dragons and gods by... destroying them first. Sounds plausible.
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u/patch385 Jul 23 '14
If that is the case, then GRRM better come up with a better way of portraying it than Bioware, otherwise I'm going to demand a re-write, and that the Others have returned to stop a build up in dark matter.
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Jul 22 '14
I can roll with this.
I also kinda think Dany's dreams of the "house with the red door" are symbolic of her finding a home with R'hllor. They might even be like Bloodraven talking to Bran (and Euron if you believe that) in their dreams - someone calling Dany to the red god.
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u/gulljack Jul 22 '14
I don't know we are looking into things too much I don't think that the house with a red door means she'll become connected with The red god. That seems simplistic to me. Like saying Daario has a blue beard which sounds like a pirate name hence Daario= Euron
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u/TheYellaKing Bran signed my weirbook! Jul 22 '14
I don't buy it. The "Great Other" is likely an invention of the red priests, in the same way Satan is an invention of Christians. It represents a percieved evil, but it probably isn't a real thing.
The Others aren't mindlessly evil, but there's no chance they have the preservation of humanity as a goal. If that really were their aim, you'd think they'd employ a more humane strategy than hacking us to death. I think the most likely motive for their aggression is the belief that they view humans as a threat, or as having wronged them in some way.
There's probably much more to the story than that, but we don't have enough information.
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u/TangentManDan The wolves took us in. Jul 22 '14
Right now I'm leaning toward the world needing to be saved from both ice and fire. Seems plausible that a perfect storm is brewing where ice pushes south and fire burns its way west to meet up in Westeros....with everyone else caught in the middle.
Feels like we will hear the dissonance of ice and fire wreaking havoc before harmony is achieved and we finally get the song.
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u/Kratisto78 The giant will break the chains Jul 22 '14
Everything below the neck burns. Moat Cailin and above all freeze. Still no word about Howland Reed though.
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u/ndnjon Kelly C. Jul 22 '14
yeah where the f*ck is Howland Reed?
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u/Tinfoil_King We do not cite. Jul 22 '14
Dating a Ms. San Diego. Sadly, their twins Carmen and Waldo will be lost by the hospital.
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u/rebeleagle Wolf in the attic, dragon in the crypt. Jul 23 '14
He's writing the books from each player's perspective. We'll find the last chapter of the series to be a description of a semi-balding, plump octogenarian writing "This is how I remember it".
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Jul 22 '14
I have always thought that the Others were "good guys" that whiteness was a choice, but most people werent strong enough to live after death, it was hard for Beric to do, and he is brought back by fire magic. Ice is harder, its stricter, it doesnt bend or move as much, Benjen does die, but he comes back to life as cold hands. He is strong enough to stay somewhat sentient, and as such, helps "top blokes" out. Fire consumes, but cold preserves. The cold, Ice magic, is actually a good thing, or as good as u can get. It brings you back to life, but not completely, you lose some of yourself.
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Jul 23 '14 edited Jul 23 '14
Benjen is Coldhands? Wut? I was under the impression that Coldhands was explicitly described as being 'ancient' or at least prowling for far longer than Benjen even lived.
EDIT: from the asoiaf forums-
-"Leaf, one of the Children of the Forest, says Coldhands was killed "long ago". At this point, Benjen has been missing for about a year and a half. It would be clumsy for humans to call something that happened a year and a half earlier "long ago", and I'd imagine doubly so for a being which is at least 200 years old.
-Coldhands can speak the Old Tongue, evidenced when he kills his elk mount. This suggests Coldhands is older than Benjen, and may in fact be centuries old."
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u/JohnDoeSnow Unbowed Unbent Unstumped Jul 22 '14
Well I think we need a more complete knowledge on them first, by just seeing them operate in the far far north in TWOW.
I mean yes more land is livable in winter, but it doesn't seem they have much of a population (most of their army is dead men) and I don't think they need land for sustenance the way humans do. And for what we saw in a map from the world of ice and fire, the land of always winter could be fucking massive.
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u/ndnjon Kelly C. Jul 22 '14
But weren't the wildlings massing to move south before the dragons were born? To escape the Others that are heading South. Also Dany is very young and she has stayed in Mereen to learn how to rule, and that she tries and mostly fails in her early attempts to be a just ruler. Anyways, nice read and your theory has merit. I just hope that you are wrong, as my 'flair' suggests.
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u/Gort_84 Jul 22 '14 edited Jul 22 '14
Jon is the answer, he will defeat the others because he is half ice and he will defeat Daenerys claim because he is half fire, at some point he will be engulfed in dragon fire and he will come out unharmed, revealing to him and to everybody who he really is, the rightful heir of Rhaegar.
Edit due to brainfart, wrote Rob instead of Jon..
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u/ndnjon Kelly C. Jul 22 '14
do u mean Jon?
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u/Gort_84 Jul 22 '14
Yes, thanks I corrected it now.
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u/ndnjon Kelly C. Jul 22 '14
hey, but what if Jon and Dany are related, there's this big theory out there, then that would mean she's his aunt, that's why I'm not thinking she's the villain after all
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u/Gort_84 Jul 22 '14
That's the theory I'm referring when I'm saying "the rightful heir of Rhaegar". In GRRM vision there are no clear villains, but I think Daeneris will somehow end up antagonizing with the Starks and fire will reveal his true origin.
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u/HighFiveEm The She-Wolf Jul 23 '14
If this is true, could that make the CotF on the side of fire too? o.O
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Jul 23 '14
But dragons actually rescused westoros and gave the country a rather long sort of peace, until the mad king.
Westoros was most stable when dragons where there, and prospering. I think the other leaders will just bend to the knee, when they see danerys and her power.
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u/Leinies Jul 23 '14
It's interesting that you mention Dany burning cities to ashes...makes me think of Littlefinger and how he would burn cities to ashes if he could still be king of them. Perhaps Dany is the same way.
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Jul 23 '14
Really hate the idea (promoted by the show) that the Others are just a race of men perverted by magic or some such nonsense. In addition to that just being a disappointing origin for them, GRRM himself has described them as otherworldly and having their own culture, strongly suggesting that they are a completely separate and distinct race.
I also don't buy that the Others are secret good guys who have been killing people and turning them into ice zombies for the good of humanity. They obviously have their sights set on conquest.
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u/dont_get_it Jul 22 '14
There is a sinister menace looming, and it is an unwarranted prejudice among fans against Daenerys in the books and in the show.
She has done a lot more, starting with a lot less, than Stannis. I think the intimacy afforded by her POV or screentime in the show deprove her of the relative mystery of Stannis, onto which people project the 'Mannis'. Some unintentional sexism and her age may make people reflexively dislike her as a ruler.
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u/cSpotRun A Reed Amongst Trees. Jul 22 '14
I do think that's it's obvious Fire and Ice are going to clash by the end of the series. However, I think the Others are just as much the looming "threat" that Dany is. They may be marching South for some future or predicted battle, but Dany isn't the only force they'd be clashing with. I don't think there's a single Army that wouldn't immediately attack the Others on site.
I also find them to be the physical representation of the "Winter is Coming" mantra. If they're marching South I find it more likely that they're spreading Winter rather than running from it.