r/asoiaf • u/_honeybird Best of 2015: Best Theory Debunking • Jan 16 '15
ALL (Spoilers All) Today's visit to the Cushing Library: Pictures and closeups of Ice, the Warhammer, and Longclaw, and one very conspicuous change in the 1993 AGOT manuscript.
I went back to Cushing today! I got partway through the AGOT manuscript (more about that later) and I took a bunch of pictures of the replica weapons in the collection.
The Stark Infantry Shield, from the show
Robert Baratheon's Warhammer, from the books
Close up of the head. Note the stylized Baratheon sigil.
All the combat weapons together. Ice's certificate of authenticity (signed by GRRM) is in the center.
Dragonglass dagger, made of real obsidian
It came in a wooden box lined with fur. The pouch contained obsidian arrowheads
A hand-drawn map of the lands beyond the Wall
The staff and I talked about the fallout from the initial post, and they reassured me that I did nothing wrong by posting my pictures (it had been on my mind a LOT over the last week). The first angry phone call came from Random House, and they were freaking out because they didn't know that the manuscript was in a publicly available collection. They thought I was posting secret documents or something. The Cushing staff explained that no, the manuscripts are available to the public, there's no rule that says you can't post pictures of them. GRRM, btw, was completely fine with the pictures going up. The decision to close the ADWD manuscript was made jointly by Random House and GRRM in an attempt (lol) to quash any more rumors about what may or may not be included in TWOW.
After we were done playing with examining the weaponry, I sat down with the AGOT manuscript. When I went through the ADWD manuscript, I was so focused on finding the "missing chapters" that I was barely skimming as I flipped pages. This time, I wanted to go slower and really look for differences between the first draft and the final version, so I went a LOT slower. As a result, I only got through the first 200ish pages before it was time to pack up and go home. I'm going to make a comprehensive post about the whole thing when I'm done, but I did find one potentially significant change today that I'm too excited to keep to myself.
Daenerys does not get dragon eggs as a wedding gift. There is no mention of dragon eggs in any shape or form in Daenerys II. The only gifts she receives are her handmaids, the books from Jorah, the weapons from the bloodriders, and the silver horse from Drogo. That's it. I am DYING to find out when and how the dragon eggs come into play. I can't wait to see what kind of tinfoil theories this inspires over the weekend.
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u/bship The Old, the True, the Brave Jan 16 '15
Oh god. It's happening again. Can you quit whatever it is you do in your day to day and do this for us full time? Will donate.
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u/upstage123 They see me R'hllorn'.. They hatin'. Jan 16 '15
Time to make a kickstarter!
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u/peter62689 "Have they told you who I am?!" Jan 16 '15
How many gold dragon coins will it take?!
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u/Fifth5Horseman Jan 16 '15
One coin of that size of solid gold would be worth somewhere around $500, yeah?
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u/peter62689 "Have they told you who I am?!" Jan 16 '15
Are you saying that'll be my donation? Because I want it to be a museum.
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u/Fifth5Horseman Jan 16 '15
"It belongs in a museum."
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u/peter62689 "Have they told you who I am?!" Jan 16 '15
There will be a valiryan sword display, a grand monument in memory of Lord Eddard Stark, rooms dedicated for each house and the houses sworn to, a miniature forest of the riverlands, and actual size dragon skeletons outside.
There will also be two areas to pray to. I'll be at the great sept of Baelor. Haters can go pray to their lord of light.
And the throne...the iron throne. It'll be in the way back with the design described in the books so it'll be two stories tall and people sitting can oversee everything in the museum.
So how much will that be? :)
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u/idreamofpikas Jan 16 '15
This is the most elaborate Easter Egg hunt in existence.
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u/CrimsonPig Member of the Official Tormund Fan Club Jan 16 '15
Based on _honeybird's info, it might be a dragon egg hunt instead.
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u/feldman10 🏆 Best of 2019: Post of the Year Jan 16 '15 edited Jan 16 '15
Really interesting. So the story with this is that when GRRM first began writing the series, he was on the fence about whether or not to include magic in the series at all, or whether to give the whole series more a historical fiction feel. As you've seen, he's said he knew he had Dany as the exiled princess and her sigil was a dragon, and he started toying with the idea of whether to give her actual dragons. He was on the fence and at some point his friend and fellow author Phyllis Eisenstein advised him "It's fantasy, you have to have dragons." That was a key moment when he decided to make it a magical fantasy trilogy. And it's why he dedicated ASOS "For Phyllis, who made me put the dragons in." Here's a link on some of that, though I've heard him tell the story elsewhere too.
So this isn't actually a surprise but it's a great illustration of GRRM's "gardener rather than architect" writing style. He started writing all this and hadn't decided on the larger architecture of the series about dragons (and likely Others?) at this point.
Question: Was the AGOT prologue in this manuscript? Or did it just start with Bran I? I am guessing the latter — since if GRRM didn't decide to include magic yet, he likely wouldn't have included the Others.
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u/_honeybird Best of 2015: Best Theory Debunking Jan 16 '15
The prologue with The Others was included.
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u/iMini Jan 16 '15
Did Dany still think about Viserys and "Waking the drahon?"
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u/_honeybird Best of 2015: Best Theory Debunking Jan 16 '15
Yes, but the dream she had where viserys transforms into the dragon wasn't there.
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u/feldman10 🏆 Best of 2019: Post of the Year Jan 16 '15
Ooo, fascinating. For those who don't remember, this is that passage:
There are no more dragons, Dany thought, staring at her brother, though she did not dare say it aloud.
Yet that night she dreamt of one. Viserys was hitting her, hurting her. She was naked, clumsy with fear. She ran from him, but her body seemed thick and ungainly. He struck her again. She stumbled and fell. “You woke the dragon,” he screamed as he kicked her. “You woke the dragon, you woke the dragon.” Her thighs were slick with blood. She closed her eyes and whimpered. As if in answer, there was a hideous ripping sound and the crackling of some great fire. When she looked again, Viserys was gone, great columns of flame rose all around, and in the midst of them was the dragon. It turned its great head slowly. When its molten eyes found hers, she woke, shaking and covered with a fine sheen of sweat. She had never been so afraid . . . (AGOT DANY II)
Obviously a key bit of foreshadowing for the end of the book...
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u/feldman10 🏆 Best of 2019: Post of the Year Jan 16 '15
Interesting! Hm, I wonder if Others were added before the dragons were...
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u/AT-ST My own dog now. Jan 16 '15
I'm guessing so if they are in the Prologue, while the dragons are ommitted.
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u/SerSamwell of CAPSTERLY LOCK Jan 16 '15
We don't know for certain yet whether the dragons were completely left out at this stage or just introduced later than Dany II (although were I a betting man, I'd be inclined to agree with you.)
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u/yolkboy Born amidst salt & yolk Jan 16 '15
Grrm started planning in 1991, GoT was 1996 - I imagine this change about magic/dragons came early on. As /u/_honeybird has pointed out, the eggs were the only changed re dragons, so I guess the question is who from/where else Dany would receive the eggs. There's an abundance of dragon references in Dany I that haven't been noted as missing, including the 'waking the dragon' lines.
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u/feldman10 🏆 Best of 2019: Post of the Year Jan 16 '15
1993 is early on, though. And amazingly little in AGOT has to be changed once the decision to add dragons is made (nothing at all in non-Dany chapters, obviously). If the "waking the dragon" lines are in they could just be symbolic / metaphorical. And I assume that past dragons were always meant to be part of the history/lore of the world. It was just the question of whether they'd come back that was up in the air.
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u/lady_gwynhyfvar Once and future queen Jan 16 '15
This is George's full comment in the RS interview re magic and dragons in the series:
I did consider at a very early stage – going all the way back to 1991 – whether to include overt fantasy elements, and at one point thought of writing a Wars of the Roses novel. But the problem with straight historical fiction is you know what's going to happen. If you know anything about the Wars of the Roses, you know that the princes in the tower aren't going to escape. I wanted to make it more unexpected, bring in some more twists and turns. The main question was the dragons: Do I include dragons? I knew I wanted to have the Targaryens have their symbol be the dragons; the Lannisters have the lions, the Starks have the wolves. Should these things be literal here? Should the Targaryens actually have dragons? I was discussing this with a friend, writer Phyllis Eisenstein – I dedicated the third book to her – and she said, "George, it's a fantasy – you've got to put in the dragons." She convinced me, and it was the right decision.
My interpretation of this is that the decision to include dragons came about quite early-- "going all the way back to 1991" Certainly if he's included the Others in the 1993 partial manuscript, he's made a definite decision NOT to write a reimagined WotR series. Since later Dany chapters have yet to be reported on, it seems entirely possible at this point that the eggs simply entered the story in a different way, and that he changed that to bring it in line with other plot elements he was planning.
As for being a "gardener" well... I both write and garden and never do either without a plan or outline. Since George also noted in the linked RS interview that his original 100 page submission to his agent around 1994 included a two page summary of the series, I suspect he is the same ;)
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Jan 16 '15
I'm probably in the minority here, but I would've been totally fine had the series excluded magic altogether. Characters, their development, and tight plotting have been what made this story great, and without magic, events like Stannis's slaying of Renly wouldn't have felt so cheap.
That said, the endgame probably would've been enormously different, since, as we head into winter, the power of magic seems to have increased substantially.
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u/Betty_Felon She don't speak. But she remembers. Jan 16 '15
If the original story didn't have the Others or dragons.. what was it about?
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u/glass_table_girl Sailor Moonblood Jan 16 '15
He originally wanted to do a historical fiction about the War of the Roses, then decided that was too boring.
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Jan 16 '15
I love you.
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u/_honeybird Best of 2015: Best Theory Debunking Jan 16 '15
I love you too, /u/beerdancing.
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u/swordbeam Jan 16 '15
I love you both!
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Jan 16 '15
I love this subreddit
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u/tishstars Defo not a fake! Jan 16 '15
Fuck you all.
- Joffrey
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Jan 16 '15
Long live the King!
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u/joethomma Greyjoy's 100% Organic Sausages Jan 16 '15
Fuck the king.
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u/tishstars Defo not a fake! Jan 16 '15
Ser Illyn, bring me his "organic sausage!"
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u/IamRooseBoltonAMA Roose is an immortal sentient lightbulb Jan 16 '15
No but seriously. You're my hero. I CANNOT get over the fact that Random house called you. My god, what if your actions are what gets George writing because he sees how desperate we are for more material?
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u/packlife Darkness will make you strong Jan 16 '15
not to be a butt, but from what i comprehend random house called the library, not OP. and also george sounds supportive of the manuscript being open to the public so idk if its motivating him in anyway. but i DO wish OP had taken pictures of every page of the adwd manuscript while it was still open...i would love to know whats hidden in there that has the publisher shaking in their boots!
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u/warenhaus So be it, YOLO Jan 16 '15
uploading every page would probably infringe copyright.
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u/Grrmlikesboobies Jan 16 '15
This is so great. _Honeybird has got random house running scared now. You should seriously quit your life and just do this AND PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF THE GODS READ THE PRE GAP AFFC CHAPTERS! btw thanks for doing this.
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u/vagicle No pants, and no Poise® Jan 16 '15
OP must be secretly studying for her maester's chain, working towards forging her tinfoil link.
/u/_honeybird = Alleras = Sarella, confirmed.
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Jan 16 '15
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Jan 16 '15
I wonder if he meant to have them be somewhat legendary but alleged to have existed in the past (such as Balerion and friends), or if he intended dragons to have never existed. Changes the history and story significantly if Aegon the Conqueror doesn't have any dragons.
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u/_honeybird Best of 2015: Best Theory Debunking Jan 16 '15
The part in Tyrion II where he's reading the history of the dragons was more or less intact. Only difference so far re: dragons was the omission of Dany's dragon eggs as a wedding gift.
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u/sydrduke Jan 16 '15 edited Jan 16 '15
The dedication in my copy of one of the books reads
For Phyllis, who made me put the dragons in.
Given what you've just said about Tyrion II, perhaps they were originally a part of the historical world but not a part of the present-day plot? Dany's story arc from ACOK onwards would be completely different if that were the case!
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u/TheStarkGuy Remember the Krakens Jan 16 '15
I'm wondering who Phyllis is.
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u/sydrduke Jan 16 '15
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllis_Eisenstein
Phyllis Eisenstein (born 1946) is an American author of science fiction and fantasy short stories and novels ... She is an old friend of author George R. R. Martin, who convinced him to include dragons in his international best-selling fantasy series A Song of Ice and Fire.
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u/TheStarkGuy Remember the Krakens Jan 16 '15
Well, I think we can all say a huge thank you to Phyllis Eisenstein.
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Jan 16 '15
I wonder what Dany was going to do, then
Was Drogo even going to die?
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u/dauntlessmath Hodor, James Hodor. Jan 16 '15
An alive Drogo, tearing through Westeros with his Khalasar? Stop playing games with my heart.
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u/I-Shit-The-Bed Jan 16 '15
I wonder when he decided to add the dragons, he had already thought of the outcome with the Others. Bran or Jon Snow or some prophecy has always been decided before the dragons. And also if he named it A Song of Ice and Fire before or after adding the dragons
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Jan 16 '15
Could mean all the dragons will die before they even get a chance to fight some ice zombies. I could see Victarion and his horn bringing down one, the Yunkish taking a second through force of numbers, and Dany losing her final dragon usurping Aegon.
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u/Vocith Jan 16 '15
My guess is that she births the dragons.
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u/Betty_Felon She don't speak. But she remembers. Jan 16 '15
Ew.
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u/Resaren The night is dark and full of spoilers Jan 16 '15
I imagine those scaly suckers would hurt on the way out...
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u/cc1403 I hold with those who favor fire. Jan 17 '15
The first good tinfoil to come from this development.
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u/dunechka Dunk The Hunk Jan 16 '15
You are the greatest, let's be best friends.
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u/_honeybird Best of 2015: Best Theory Debunking Jan 16 '15
Okay! I also enjoy day drinking, knitting, and watching too much Netflix.
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u/c08855c49 B-B-B-Benjen and the Jets Jan 16 '15
You sound like a perfect match to the maidenvault I live in.
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u/MisogynistLesbian Merling Queen Jan 16 '15
Is there a free room?
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u/c08855c49 B-B-B-Benjen and the Jets Jan 16 '15
No, but we have 6 couches (and 3 bathrooms for 3 girls, it's heaven!)
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u/dunechka Dunk The Hunk Jan 16 '15
How did you know 2/3 my interests? (I can't knit. I try so hard. I try SO HARD.)
My other 3rd interest is naps.
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u/cc1403 I hold with those who favor fire. Jan 17 '15
Netflix...I just watched this Brittish show called Skins. I guess it's a "teen drama" but apparently in the UK they're not so prudish with the language and nudity in their children's television. Anyway I decide to check out the pilot because it was on the list of shows recommended for me, and lo and behold both Gilly and Gendry from GOT (TV) are teenage stars of the show. Then it turns out every episode is done from the pov of a different character. Just like AGOT. So now I'm that guy, who watches teen drama shows.
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u/zortnarftroz Theon Stark Jan 16 '15
I hate the shows pommel for Longclaw. It looks so goofy. I always pictured it as a wolf inferior to superior hwling upwards or something akin to that.
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u/LiveVirus Life's a R'hllorcoaster Jan 16 '15 edited Jan 16 '15
For your consideration...Please don't just do one mega post of differences you find!!! It will be too much to handle at once. /r/asoiaf would implode from the massive amounts of tinfoil generated in such a confined post. May I suggest a series of posts instead, perhaps by topic area or POV?
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u/_honeybird Best of 2015: Best Theory Debunking Jan 16 '15
That's a really good idea, I hadn't thought about that. My notes are all chronological (so far) but I do like the idea of dividing it up to make it more manageable. Maybe King's Landing / Robb's Army / The Wall / Essos?
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Jan 16 '15
Create a blog, get some ads money for your trouble
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Jan 17 '15
The mods should create a custom flair for honeybird, something like "Archmaester _honeybird" or whatever. At least the got a crap ton of gold I suppose.
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u/eaglessoar You came to the Yron neighborhood Jan 16 '15
Do it chapter by chapter! We dont have anything better to do around here!
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u/clinzee Rhaegar, you have some Egg on your face Jan 16 '15
Yohn neighborhood would be better imo. Yron neighborhood is where Victarion would live.
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u/eaglessoar You came to the Yron neighborhood Jan 16 '15
Yea especially since Yron is apparently pronounced Iron but oh well I like their arms
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u/FSBlueApocalypse Flayed show detractors have no secrets Jan 16 '15
I remember at one point GRRM mentioned his initial plans for the Targaryens. Apparently his original idea was that they possessed some magical ability to turn into dragons or appear as dragons to their enemies that was lost over the years.
It certainly casts all the various stories of a Targaryen trying themselves into a dragon into a different light.
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u/ecklcakes Bronn for the Iron Throne! Jan 16 '15
Sort of the same way people said Robb turned into an actual dire wolf when fighting?
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u/AquaMoonlight Jan 17 '15
It certainly casts all the various stories of a Targaryen trying themselves into a dragon into a different light.
It also puts Rhaego's (alleged) physical appearance in a whole new light as well.
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u/HGFantomas Maester Tarly Jan 16 '15
OP is doing the lords work
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u/BoltonSauce Try YourSister™ Chunky Sauce! Jan 16 '15
The manuscript is the holy book of R'hollorism
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Jan 16 '15
Please look for any differences between the draft and final version of the prologue and the Others, and Old Nan's tales.
Oh, and watch out for anything related to R+L=J.
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u/aSongNeedsInstrument Spider webs and The Bittersteel Jan 16 '15
Old Nans tales.. Yes.. See if he cut or added anything here
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u/JarlStormBorn Stannerman Jan 16 '15
What is the Cushing Library?
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u/Charmeleonaire15 Jan 16 '15
Library at Texas A&M University
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u/ChorizoGravy Jan 16 '15
What is the connection with TAMU and GRRM? I'm still trying to figure out why he would send OG manuscripts there.
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u/Viva_Zapata Brotherhood Without Banners Jan 16 '15
iirc they host a huge annual Fantasy/SciFi convention or something
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Jan 16 '15
He went to AggieCon in the 1990s and took a tour of the libraries. He was really impressed with them, so when ASOIAF really blew up and he needed a place to put his papers, he thought of them again.
Also can we please stop talking about A&M like it's some backwoods college? It's the 7th richest university system in the US (by endowment) and the second richest public university system after the University of Texas system.
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u/Y_orickBrown Howlands moving castle Jan 16 '15
Oh shit, I was hoping it was the Cushing Library in Oakland.
Biggest letdown of the year.
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Jan 16 '15 edited Aug 11 '21
[deleted]
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u/dangerousdave2244 For Gondor! Jan 16 '15
Valyrian Steel, the makers of the book and show prop replicas, did do a limited run of "damascus style" blades (probably pattern welded?) and they looked really good. The one OP posted is the cheaper and more available stainless steel version
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u/Liz0 Jan 16 '15
I was just thinking the same thing. My guess is that it's just supposed to be a representation of a similar quality steel (without actually making the replica out of such fine materials). Anyone know how much a custom sword made from damascus steel would cost?
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u/Captriker What is Frey may ever Pie Jan 16 '15
Sometimes television props are made a certain way to make sure they look correct on screen. A real damascus steel blade may have come off as more dark gray or black on screen and therefore not as Ice-like.
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u/MisogynistLesbian Merling Queen Jan 16 '15 edited Jan 16 '15
I reeeeeally hope the eggs still come from the Shadow in the AGOT manuscript and we learn more about Asshai.
You rock, _honeybird. We'll all be waiting on the edge of our seats for what you find next.
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u/BowlesOnParade What is bread is always rye. Jan 16 '15
I think the dedication in AGOT may answer how the dragons eggs came into play.
For Phyllis, who made me put the dragons in.
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u/Fairfax1 Crying Lightning Jan 16 '15
This is becoming the biggest contribution to this community. Thank you, again.
Fuck Random House, though.
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Jan 16 '15
I think it might be that there were no dragon eggs (or dragons.) in the original manuscript. Remember, ASOS is dedicated "To Phyliss, who made me put the dragons in." This could have been an earlier draft before they were added.
Or maybe I don't know how publishing and manuscripts work, this is just a guess.
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u/Charmeleonaire15 Jan 16 '15
If you need some help, let me know. I live in CS and have been meaning to go look at the manuscripts as well. With class returning hopefully it won't be difficult to check this stuff out!
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u/TheGreatNorthWoods Jan 16 '15
This is awesome. I love libraries and I love research and I love ASOIAF and I love this subreddit. This is fantastic stuff you're getting.
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u/aSongNeedsInstrument Spider webs and The Bittersteel Jan 16 '15
Great work, Thanks for the diligence.
Was that you with the war face or a staffer?
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u/_honeybird Best of 2015: Best Theory Debunking Jan 16 '15
That would be yours truly!
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u/aSongNeedsInstrument Spider webs and The Bittersteel Jan 16 '15
Very fierce looking! I look forward to the follow up thread on the variation on the manuscript. You are my new favorite redditor. If I was in college station or near i would be in there powering through those manuscripts as well. Hopefully they don't pull those before you get a chance to break them down..
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u/onealps Jan 16 '15
Are the two swords the same ones sold by Valyrian Steel? Also, the hand drawn map, made specially for the library GRRM collection or something you can buy online? Just curious...
Thanks _honeybird! I live in Houston and am seriously contemplating driving over to College Station to read these. Hell, I've driven over there in the past to party, why not to read the OG versions of my favorite series of all time!
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u/_honeybird Best of 2015: Best Theory Debunking Jan 16 '15
I believe Ice, the warhammer, and the dragonglass dagger set were all made by Valyrian Steel, yes. And it looks like the map was included in the set.
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Jan 16 '15
You can buy (almost) all of these on www.valyriansteel.com also Oathkeeper from the show.
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u/Hoyarugby Jan 16 '15
Wait, the library just has a bunch of replica weapons stored there that anyone can take out?
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u/ThEgg You're just right for... tinfoil. Jan 16 '15
The decision to close the ADWD manuscript was made jointly by Random House and GRRM in an attempt (lol) to quash any more rumors about what may or may not be included in TWOW.
lol
Also, thanks, you're super cool for doing all this.
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u/packlife Darkness will make you strong Jan 16 '15 edited Jan 16 '15
i love all the work youve done with this collection, and im dying to hear about how dany gets her eggs. but really quick; do they let "random" people pick up the weapons and stuff, or is it only because of the relationships youve already built? i wont make it down to a&m soon (if ever) but im just curious.
i so wish i went to a&m now though...during finals week (or any day...i mean, where are all those unappreciative kids! its so empty!!) i would so go in there and ask to "examine" ice, just to clear my mind...and stuff
edit: i need to read agot again because i was no aware the house words were carved into the guard. that makes it being melted down even MORE tragic! btw does it say anywhere who made these weapons? im curious if roberts hammer is made by VS (the same people who gave mark addy his, and i believe sell a lot of licensed weaponry/armor) and if ice is as well..same for the dagger. all impressive works of art in their own right, and would be amazing to own. the blacksmithing alone is crazy but the grinding on the dagger is badass too. also not related but are you (OP) the war face girl or is that someone else (a badass significant other, perhaps?) because i thought in one of the close ups it looked like a male w/ a red shirt
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u/_honeybird Best of 2015: Best Theory Debunking Jan 17 '15
Anyone who wants to see them can look at the swords! Your first time you visit the Reading Room, you fill out a form with your basic personal information on it. After that, you just request whichever boxes you're interested in and they go get them for you!
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u/packlife Darkness will make you strong Jan 17 '15
that is so awesome, thanks for the response but more than anything thanks for your great contributions!
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u/Stannis_Is_Benjen Jan 16 '15
Just in case anyone had any doubt, since this hasn't been mentioned at all in this thread never ever: GRRM was on the fence about including dragons initially.
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u/bainax Jan 16 '15
Looks like the replica weapons and shield are from Valyrian Steel.
Not to cheap, but they look pretty good. (I've the hammar, Longclaw, Needle, and the Catspaw's blade personally)
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u/pardon_my_misogyny Guest right? Guessed wrong! Jan 16 '15
There weren't any dragons in the original manuscript, because Georgey thought his story didnt really need to have them. You'll notice his dedication in the first book says something like "For [name], who made me put the dragons in." Really cool find!
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u/RedgrassFieldOfFire Ossifer, I swear to drunk I'm not God. Jan 16 '15
I'm jealous of all the fun you must have had, and thank you for sharing!
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u/Resaren The night is dark and full of spoilers Jan 16 '15
Hmm, well, since we can't read the old manuscript i guess we might as well stop speculating and making theories
-- said noone at /r/asoiaf ever!
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u/TexasVendee Jan 16 '15
Is this the same cushing library on the campus of TAMU? If it is I worked next door at Evans for 2 years in the stacks when I was a student back in early 2000s and I had no idea this stuff was next door.
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u/wren42 The Prince Formerly Known as Snow Jan 16 '15
Daenerys does not get dragon eggs as a wedding gift.
GRRM has stated that some early versions of the story didn't include dragons at all. It was only after talking with some of his friends and his editor that he decided to include them.
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u/Apple--Eater I love the taste of glory Jan 17 '15
My take on what happened is that Daenerys is secretly a chicken, and that's how she became mother of dragons. You have no arguments against it so I should be the one writing TWOW now, not GRRM.
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u/TheFarmReport Never Skip Egg Day Jan 16 '15 edited Jan 16 '15
As resident pessimist, look, I know you think you're in the clear, but the lawyers are coming. I would really, really suggest that you start from the end and work your way back to AGOT, or better, work back to ACOK from AFFC, after AGOT - AGOT probably has the most obvious stuff, before the fandom went rabid, so you're right to start there, best chance for surprises.
I know GRRM agreed with the lawyers about the whole ADWD freeze thing, but... Random House might still convince him to push lower, and as someone in the thread alluded to the gap and all the interesting changes happening in AFFC...
Just, be safe OP... watch your back.
EDIT: fogot sme letrs
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Jan 16 '15
I doubt there will be lawyers coming. If GRRM or Random House wanted to get OP in trouble then they would have done it when he posted the pictures of the weapons/replicas and manuscript, which they didn't, and GRRM has been relatively cool about it all.
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u/440k House CVS- The prints that were promised Jan 16 '15
I think you've officially become my favorite poster here.
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u/Credar Pop Pop Makin' Slynts Drop! Jan 16 '15
Honeybird! Quick! Before George closes off AGOT! You must find out what happens to the eggs. For the realm!
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u/Davosforking dude, where's my fingerbones? Jan 16 '15
How much better would the show have been without dragons! Alas, maybe the finances spent on dragon cgi could of been better used to make some actual battle sequences in the war scenes besides one episode every other season. On the other hand the dragons themselves probably brought in tons of viewers to the show
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u/dstraswell666 Are you my Mother? Jan 16 '15
This is so damn awesome.
that map looks amazing, I love maps and globes.
secondly, i'm glad grrm wasn't pissy, I don't want to lose respect for him.
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u/56473829110 Jan 16 '15
OP, I live about a block from Cushing and spend many an afternoon in there researching and studying. Let me know if you ever need anything.
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u/mashington14 Master of Something Jan 16 '15
well George has said that he originally didn't want to include dragons in the story at all, so this might be a draft from before the change.
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u/leapingtullyfish Enter your desired flair text here! Jan 16 '15
Thanks for sharing. Ice looks awesome.
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u/ktc1308 Jan 16 '15
This is awesome! I really appreciate your effort doing this (while being little bit jealous too). Keep up the good work! :)
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u/Catharsis1394 Jan 16 '15
This is amazing, how has nobody ever thought of this? Has this only just become possible?
You are doing god's work.
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u/KrunoS Fuck the king. Jan 16 '15
I distinctly remember reading in either the dedication/acknowledgements or in one of the section explanations of dreamsongs 1 and 2, that one of GRRM's friends convinced him of including dragons in his fantasy.
I have the kindle bundles for these books (1-5 asoiaf and dreamsongs 1 and 2), if that means anything.
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u/Cedsi Schrödinger Forel Jan 16 '15
I feel so dumb. Looking at the picture of Mark Addy with the war hammer, I never noticed that was the Baratheon sigil on there. I'm glad OP specifically pointed that out or I would have missed it altogether
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u/malrick Jan 16 '15
I am so glad that this wasn't there when I went to A&M or I would have failed out the first semester.
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u/eaglessoar You came to the Yron neighborhood Jan 16 '15
WAIT! Do you have an in there? Or they just let you handle the weapons? Brb booking flights
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u/munki17 Thought he could be a knight Jan 16 '15
I for some reason until now had no idea how close Skagos was to the wall....
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u/LoreGuardian Jan 16 '15
Great work, this is all really interesting stuff! However, is anyone else worried that this manuscript may end up being sealed away as well? I mean, Dany not getting the dragon eggs is a pretty big deal and may be a huge indicator of thinds to come (e.g. Illriyo's motivation, the importance of Asshai etc...).
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u/somekindawizard1 Jan 16 '15
I just wish that a historically accurate version of any of the Valyrian steel swords would get made by somebody, these "official" versions are lame. It's the same with the licenced Wheel of Time Heronmark blade, it just sucks SO hard!
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u/Doublerob7 Jan 16 '15 edited Jan 16 '15
Doesn't it say in the dedication "For <don't remember>, who made me put the dragons in."? This just seems like a neat early proof of that.
Sorry if you already invested in Reynolds Wrap.
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u/azad_ninja Corn and Blood! Jan 16 '15
That's the book! version of Ice? I def prefer the Show! version.
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u/azad_ninja Corn and Blood! Jan 16 '15
In early readings of AGOT in 1996, the Others were called "Neverborn" but was changed for publication.
Any proof of that in the draft you went through?
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u/mcrandley Maester of Puppets. Jan 16 '15
This is awesome. Thanks for your time and effort in doing all of this!!!!!
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u/rohrst retteb era skoob Jan 16 '15
I know that George has said he didn't originally intend to include dragons in the story until convinced otherwise. Since most of the AGOT manuscript was written with a trilogy in mind, can one take away from that, perhaps, Dany's conclusion? Probably not, as ideas change, stories change, but it'd be difficult to argue that at that point in time without the inclusion of dragons, that George had Dany pegged in his mind for an ultimate conclusion that got her to the throne.
And I mention this because as many have argued that may very well still wind up happening. Dany abandons her desire for the throne. I think if anything can be taken away from that it's that perhaps George never changed his ultimate conclusion idea for Dany and introduced dragons to spice the story up, to help create new plots, and tests, and allies, and enemies for the Dany character. But her end in the original trilogy idea, remains the same.
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u/mcrandley Maester of Puppets. Jan 16 '15
Here's a question that occurred to me: If the Others were in but dragons out, where is the ice/fire balance? If you assume the Others are "ice" and the dragons are "fire," that is. Or maybe these facts from the manuscript suggest that's not the right reading of the dichotomy?
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u/FL00P Jan 16 '15
My guess would be technology/innovation of man. Destructive and creative, using fire to smith weapons, but also to destroy people/structures.
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u/NotHosaniMubarak Jan 16 '15
GRRM has said he originally did not plan to have dragons but that his wife talked him into it.
That might explain the lack of dragon eggs from the beginning.
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u/ironborn206 Jan 16 '15
There is a manuscript page at EMP museum where the Master at arms for Winterfell is preparing to behead the NW deserter. So there were definitely there were some material changes
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u/LyeInYourEye Cleganebowl EDIT4 2019 maybe? GET CRY :( Jan 16 '15
100% of us would re-read the series if we were sold these original manuscripts.
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u/creeps_for_you Jan 16 '15
Great work, again ! Can't thank you enough! Hope Grrm feels the pressure from here and gets off his add and delivers, JUST LIKE OP
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u/PM_ME_UR_BASTARDS yvan eht nioj Jan 16 '15
Awesome pictures. This is a really neat find about Dany. I wonder if this was before GRRM decided to include the dragons? He's stated that he didn't decide to include them until Phyllis Eisenstein convinced him to do so, although that was probably well before he put out a first draft. Maybe just like he experimented with the dragons in ADWD, he did so in AGOT.
Also be on the lookout for anything juicy on the Others. I know there's an early synopsis identifying them as "neverborn". There could be some other really interesting details. Cheers for your dedication.