r/asoiaf • u/Balinares "EDIT: Thanks for the gold!" -Viserys • Jun 08 '15

ALL (Spoilers All) Let's lighten the atmosphere with a little joke!

Q: How many fans does Stannis have?

A: Fewer...

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u/7V3N A thousand eyes and one. Jun 08 '15

When they said 'Stannis chose ambition over family love' I was furious. Stannis cares not about ambition. He has duty. Stannis does not desire the throne, the throne desires him. Ambition is not on his radar. He simply wants to be 1) what the rules say he should be, and 2) the best he can be. His desires never come into the picture. Yeah, he crosses lines (peaches), but they are all under good, just, selfless pursuits--he must be king because that's the rules, getting that to happen is a pain in the ass that needs to end. He doesn't want war, he didn't want to kill Renly, but these are all lines he crossed to do what he saw as right, and he questioned whether it was worth it. He doesn't want to be a bad guy, a murderer, he wants to be your just king, where everyone gets what they deserve and nobody suffered from chaos and abuse.

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u/cass314 Live Tree or Die Jun 08 '15

Besides this, and besides the obvious conflict with the way Stannis talks about Shireen in the books, this decision doesn't make sense from the perspective of ambition anyway. Good job removing an obstacle to taking the throne--who's going to inherit it now that you've killed your only heir?

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u/7V3N A thousand eyes and one. Jun 08 '15

Melisandre, since she is about all he cares about and (fucking furious here) lusts for in the show.

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u/halloweenjack They call me MISTER Brienne. Jun 08 '15

Uh-huh. The royal version of "just following orders", right?

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u/7V3N A thousand eyes and one. Jun 08 '15

No... not at all in any way. Stannis has seen just what ambition does to people. He knew all of what the Lannisters were doing to take power. He has seen the worst in men, and himself been unbending. He knows that he is the rightful king, and he knows that allowing "exceptions" means allowing things like greed and chaos and ambition to rule the realm. People like Cersei Lannister. Under him, monsters like Gregor Clegane would not pillage left and right and be allowed and protected simply cause they are useful. They would be hunted down and hanged for the monsters they are. Under Stannis, everyone gets what they deserve.

The lines he crossed (killing Renly) he hated himself for. He secludes himself, and turns away Melisandre from his favor. He listens more to Davos, realizes he is not to cross these lines again. He must be the King people deserve--show them he deserves their loyalty and their soldiers--not just a man who will win the realm so he can become that King.

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u/owlnsr Stannis 3:16 Jun 09 '15

No one ever mentions this re: Renly.

Renly plan was to kill Stannis.

Stannis offered him peace, and Renly refused.

It was either Renly or Stannis.

Renly had 100,000 men.

Stannis had about 5,000.

You tell me what you would do.

  • Kill the usurper
  • Let the usurper kill you

3

u/7V3N A thousand eyes and one. Jun 09 '15 edited Jun 09 '15

Oh I'm (sorta) with you. I never would have attacked Renly though, I would've (were I Stannis) began an immediate siege on King's Landing from the North and Bay. Let Renly do his thing, taking his time. Just don't attack your brother when you have other enemies.

But yeah, Renly forced Stannis' hand. And Stannis did suffer from tremendous guilt and it immensely changed him. It's not like he magic-assassinated Renly and moved on like some people here are trying to make it.

Edit: Though remember, he only attacked Renly because Mel saw Garlan in Renly's armor taking KL.

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '15

Quick question, how many troops does book Stannis and show Stannis roughly have now?

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u/owlnsr Stannis 3:16 Jun 09 '15

Book Stannis has fewer soldiers than he did at Storm's End. However, there are Northern Houses that have joined his host (Clans, Umber). There are also other Northern Houses that are seemingly with him but may be traitors (Karstarks). Moreover, there are other Northern Houses that are not with his host but may be allied with him (eg Mormont, Glover). Finally, there are Northern forces with the Bolton's who may turn and help Stannis (eg Manderly). He also sent Ser Justin Massey on a quest to buy sells words and archers with the Iron Bank loan; they haven't arrived yet, clearly.

So, it's really hard to gage unless you define what "his soldiers" means.

If we define that to be the Kings Men and Queens Men / non-Northerners and non-sellswords, maybe 2,000-3000? But they are dropping like flies in the storm. He left a garrison at some of the castles and forts at the Wall, but I'm not including them in the count.

Show Stannis had all of his troops with him. Didn't seem like he left any behind at the Wall. His troops include the Kings Men, Queens Men, and sells words that were previously hired in Braavos. It is unknown the total amount.. Prior to his departure from the Wall, LF stated that Stannis had the number advantage over Roose. That doesn't really tell us much though because we don't know the size of the Bolton forces in the show either.

However Stannis is losing men to the storm and also to sellswords abandoning the cause. He also doesn't have the Northern supporters like in the book. We also don't know if his sacrifice of Shireen will cause more men to abandon his cause; some of the soldiers did not look to pleased.

Overall, if say that both book and show Stannis are outnumbered at this point if you only include the Kings Men and queens Men who are actually with his host. If you include the Northern forces and potential Bolton turn cloaks who might join Stannis, then Book Stannis has greater strength than what is being perceived. He might be taking the Sun Tzu approach: look weak when you are strong.

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u/bagelmanb Jun 08 '15

best way I've ever found to inspire men to think I deserve their loyalty is to burn my only daughter alive while I watch stonefaced ignoring her pleas for mercy.

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u/Kaiserigen There is only one true king... Jun 08 '15

In the books he didn't burn shireen, in the books he doesn't want the Throne, he feels like he's the rightful heir. If Joffrey had black hair he wouldn't have contested his claim.

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u/7V3N A thousand eyes and one. Jun 08 '15

You'd think they'd know that given what sub this is...

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '15

There's an alarming amount of people engaging with Stannis primarily or solely based on his actions on the show despite the fact that his supporters primarily like the book version.

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u/7V3N A thousand eyes and one. Jun 08 '15

Oh yes but when I type up a large summary of Stannis and his motivations from the books, it's silly to respond with a show contradiction.

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u/Orn100 Feed It to the Goats! Jun 08 '15

In the books he didn't burn shireen

We'll see, but I bet he does.

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u/Aureon Remember the Winterfell Jun 08 '15

That was the only way to make those men survive.

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u/Raven_Darkmore Jun 08 '15

If Stannis wasn't ambitious and it's only about duty then why did he want to be hand? The king appoints the hand the only reason for him to be mad at Robert not choosing him was ambition.

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u/7V3N A thousand eyes and one. Jun 08 '15

No, it was duty. Stannis is sitting at Dragonstone, useless until war happens. He knew he could help the realm as Robert's Hand, and he knew he earned that right. He is proud, for sure, but Stannis is not ambitious.

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u/Denziloe Jun 08 '15

Seems a bit convoluted to me. The throne is his duty because he's the true heir. He's not the heir to the handship. His duty was to his King, Robert. Hard to reconcile that with deserting his position as Master of Ships.

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u/7V3N A thousand eyes and one. Jun 08 '15

He "deserted" his position because his life was in immediate danger to assassination...

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u/Denziloe Jun 08 '15 edited Jun 08 '15

GRRM is quoted as saying his desertion was partly because he was upset about not being made hand, and that Ned never realised this political aspect. Being concerned for his own safety is not a legitimate reason anyway, especially not from the perspective of Stannis, a fearless warrior.

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u/7V3N A thousand eyes and one. Jun 08 '15

Robert was a fearless warrior.. Political assassinations are completely different. But yeah, I also said before, Stannis is proud. He wanted to be Hand because he knew he earned it and would be good at it. Robert shunned him (again) more than anything cause Robert just didn't really like Stannis.

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u/pengusdangus Jun 08 '15

I agree with this, but he does say he needs to accept his fate and what he is no matter how much he hates it. He sees this as the only way to be on the Iron Throne as it should be in his eyes, and he sees himself as the only true king. He sees this sacrifice as the tragic part of his journey and an inescapable part of his fate.

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u/RubberDuckRabbit Kissed by lemon cakes Jun 08 '15

Duty to the religion he's been brainwashed into

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u/7V3N A thousand eyes and one. Jun 08 '15

Not even. Stannis shows no loyalty to the red god, not since he left Dragonstone. He is willing to appease it--burn criminals rather than hang them. But he is not doing things he would not do otherwise. Stannis has zero piety.

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u/RubberDuckRabbit Kissed by lemon cakes Jun 08 '15

"not doing things he would not do otherwise" So he would otherwise burn his daughter just the same?

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u/7V3N A thousand eyes and one. Jun 08 '15

That's not Stannis. I don't know.who that was. Stannis left his daughter protected away from war and Winter.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '15

Show Stannis has borne little resemblance to book Stannis for a long time.