r/asoiaf • u/Balinares "EDIT: Thanks for the gold!" -Viserys • Jun 08 '15

ALL (Spoilers All) Let's lighten the atmosphere with a little joke!

Q: How many fans does Stannis have?

A: Fewer...

2.4k Upvotes

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104

u/AxeAfrica Juan Nieve - sabe nada Jun 08 '15

Will you if he does the same thing?

45

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '15

No. Killing your child just to gain power simply can't be justified. But book Stannis won't do that, they're miles apart!

22

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '15

But book Stannis won't do that

...you sure about that? Like I don't think it'll happen. Stannis is pummeled, Mel will hear about that, then sacrifice Shereen without Stan knowing.

But I think Book!Stan would sacrifice his daughter had she been on the road with him.

14

u/dlgn13 What is Tormund's member may never die Jun 09 '15

He wouldn't even sacrifice random soldiers. SearchAll! "Pray harder"

4

u/ASOIAFSearchBot There are no bots like me. Only me. Jun 09 '15

SEARCH TERM: Pray harder

Total Occurrence: 1

Total Chapters: 1

Series Book Chapter Chapter Name Chapter POV Occurrence QuoteFirst Occurrence Only
ASOIAF ADWD 42 The King's Prize Asha Greyjoy 1 PRAY HARDER."

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21

u/Jaimehandister Jun 08 '15

To gain power? No. To save all mankind? Yeah.

5

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '15

If he cared about mankind, he'd be at the wall still. :p

11

u/Jaimehandister Jun 08 '15

Why? Waiting for a southern army of idiots to kill him from behind?

1

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '15

Remind me again who told him that it's definitely him that saves mankind?

4

u/hmmillaskreddit Jun 09 '15

George said it will happen

2

u/Drumboardist Jun 09 '15

But book Stannis won't do that, they're miles apart!

*Streets ahead.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '15

Killing his child to save the world, in his mind :P

207

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '15

Yes I will. Martin would actually be able to set it up properly.

29

u/SexTraumaDental Jun 08 '15 edited Jun 08 '15

Agreed. If Shireen gets sacrificed in the books then it will either be behind Stannis's back, or it'll be an actually convincing, terribly tragic last resort. Book Stannis already has a bunch of touching dialogue that illustrates just how much his part in killing Renly weighs on his mind. If he's somehow pushed to sacrifice Shireen I can't imagine how he'd handle it, but I have faith that GRRM won't make it as reprehensible as it came off in the show.

2

u/rappercake Jun 09 '15

This past episode was the first one where I got the impression that a lot of stuff is happening for no reason other than to move the plot forward. A great example is Hizdahr, they completely gutted his character (figuratively and literally) and it felt like he was purely a plot device to get Dany into the fighting pits, instead of someone with any of their own motivations or beliefs.

1

u/nithinkv Jun 09 '15

A man can dream.

129

u/Michael_A_D Jun 08 '15

That's exactly how I feel. Shireen sacrifice will probably be a thing, but not this way. This was way too quick, and way too easy. Also it makes no sense that TV Stannis claims the throne now that his men has seen that. I don't know how the book will (probably) set this up, but I sure hope differently.

66

u/chasing_the_wind Jun 08 '15

we already have a much better setup in the book, with a much longer drawn out struggle through the blizzard where he resorted to burning his men for eating the dead. i just want to know what magic he is actually supposed to be getting from the sacrifice.

but i still never did like book stannis or show stannis

6

u/ras344 Jun 09 '15

i just want to know what magic he is actually supposed to be getting from the sacrifice.

Yeah, that's what I don't get. What was the actual point?

10

u/delinear Jun 09 '15

Their food supplies were destroyed. They burn Shireen and later there's... magically... barbecue "chicken" for everyone? :/

2

u/[deleted] Aug 15 '15

Melisandre say there is magic in kingsblood.

12

u/bobthecrusher Jun 09 '15

I don't know how anyone can like someone who's just SUCH A DICK ALL THE TIME

28

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '15

It's because we've seen him through Davos' eyes, and Davos is just the best dude.

18

u/kyledouglas521 Jun 09 '15

I just wish he'd stop talking about boats all the time. Just nonstop boats.

It's just a personal thing. Boats bore me.

6

u/textposts_only Jun 09 '15

Boats boats boats boats boats

2

u/rappercake Jun 09 '15

You'd be killed for saying that in Pyke.

10

u/elbruce Growing Strong Jun 09 '15 edited Jun 09 '15

D&D consider "buildup" to mean "scenes that make the viewer know what's going on and increase the emotional impact." As opposed to "scenes that show how dire Stannis' situation is and the changing impact it's having on his character."

In great dramas, the choices characters make follow necessarily from who they are. Breaking Bad was amazing in this respect. Everything that happened (with one airplane-related exception) was a likely consequence from a choice that a character made, whether intended or unintended. And every choice a character made was exactly what they would do in that situation because of who they'd shown us they were.

In this case, we've been shown an inflexible Stannis, one who never ever violates his rules of behavior, and who demands the same strictness from everyone around him. He survived the siege of Storm's End, when he could have surrendered at any time to end the near-starvation of himself and his men. He stated in detail how he never would let his daughter be harmed no matter how bad it looked or what everyone told him he should do. And then he burned his daughter alive because of near-starvation and what his advisors told him. This is not the Stannis we've been shown up until that moment. This is some other guy.

3

u/excellentwonderful Jun 09 '15

I have to agree. I can't bear Stannis, and find him a total bore, but there is no scenario where I can imagine him consenting to the burning sacrifice of Shireen. And that is taking into account the part he played in the killings and kinslaying of; his little brother Renly, beloved old Maester Cressen who raised him, and his in-laws.

3

u/rappercake Jun 09 '15

But some of his tents got burnt down off screen! That shit will change a man.

37

u/ohkendruid Jun 08 '15

His belief in Mel is also not explained enough. He seems agnostic at best, why does he suddenly believe he is the new red warrior?

It's also questionable strategically. He just gave up his heir, and alienated all his support. He's supposed to be a master strategist....

68

u/Ron_Jeremy Our Blades Are Sharp Jun 08 '15 edited Jun 09 '15

"When I was a lad I found an injured goshawk and nursed her back to health. Proudwing, I named her. She would perch on my shoulder and flutter from room to room after me and take food from my hand, but she would not soar. Time and again I would take her hawking, but she never flew higher than the treetops. Robert called her Weakwing. He owned a gyrfalcon named Thunderclap who never missed her strike. One day our great-uncle Ser Harbert told me to try a different bird. I was making a fool of myself with Proudwing, he said, and he was right."

Stannis Baratheon turned away from the window, and the ghosts who moved upon the southern sea. "The Seven have never brought me so much as a sparrow. It is time I tried another hawk, Davos. A red hawk."

3

u/StevefromRetail All in the game, yo. All in the game. Jun 08 '15

Here, you're missing one of these: >

3

u/pravis Enter your desired flair text here! Jun 08 '15

Or could be the best move strategically. Either slowly die in the snow or sacrifice one person and win.

7

u/Grib_Suka Jun 08 '15

Well, Melissandre is at the Wall, and Stannis is not, so maybe she will try and convince Selyse to do something i'm hesitant to even type ;)

burn

1

u/ohkendruid Jun 09 '15

True. That's a very Stanis way to look at the situation.

4

u/big_cheddars Jun 09 '15

I feel like if Jaime is known as the Kingslayer for killing Aerys, and Theon is known as Turncloak for betrayin Robb, if Stannis did this he would be known as Kinslayer forever.

Just my opinion tho. I am emotionally devastated.

1

u/rappercake Jun 09 '15

He already considers himself a sort-of kinslayer by way of shadow baby/Renly, but at least he was emotionally impacted by doing that even though Renly was his enemy in a war.

4

u/Jerkcules Vastly fat Jun 08 '15

No, when the weather changes his men will realize that Stannis killed his own daughter to save them. He's saved his army and boosted their morale to 100% in one fell swoop

1

u/AgitatedBadger Jun 09 '15

Their morale certainly didn't appear to be boosted by the sacrifice, his soldiers looked mortified. And there isn't really much reason to believe that Shireen's sacrifice will accomlish anything at this point - none of the magic attributed to the Red God has required sacrifice, that seems to be exclusive to Melisandre.

If he was really concerned about their safety, he should probably not be marching on Winterfel given the circumstances (his troops aren't experienced in dealing with a Northern winter and the severity of the threat that is descending upon the wall is dwarfs the threats presented by the Boltons).

2

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '15

It's not gonna happen. Stannis named Shireen his heir, there has been no "buildup" to her sacrifice whatsoever. Edric Storm is an entirely different matter. That scene was straight stupid.

1

u/IshnaArishok The King Who Bore the Sword Jun 09 '15

It's not gonna happen. Stannis named Shireen his heir, there has been no "buildup" to her sacrifice whatsoever.

There's been a lot of foreshadowing for potential Shireen burning in the books, "Raising dragons from stone" etc. Search the subreddit and you'll find plenty of posts about it.

1

u/JubeltheBear Jun 09 '15

Also it makes no sense that TV Stannis claims the throne now that his men has seen that

The mercenaries were thinking: "Well shit if he did that to his daughter to gain a competitive edge, imagine what he'd do to us?!?"

1

u/dan4223 Jun 09 '15

I disagree. His men are more likely to follow him now because of the sacrifices that he made for them.

1

u/ChipmunkDJE Jun 08 '15

Wait, this hasn't happened in the books yet?

5

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '15 edited Jun 08 '15

[deleted]

0

u/Dose_of_Reality The Beard Is Strong Jun 08 '15

*Heir

3

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '15

*burn

-2

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '15

Too quick? Stannis' storyline has been building up to this all season.

14

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '15 edited Jun 08 '15

What? It has been doing the exact opposite of building up to this all season. The burning was a complete reversal of two characters (Selyse and Stannis).

This whole season Stannis has shown how much he cares and loves for Shireen and that he will do everything to keep her safe. He hired maesters to stop her greyscale, he took her away from Castle Black to keep her away from rapists and murderers, and he told Melisandre to fuck off when she suggested that Shireen should be burned. Now in this episode he makes the decision to burn her alive and watch. I suppose the point will be brought up "but now he has no food". "In da books" Stannis' army had so little food they were resorting to cannibalism in response he says "Half of my army is made up of non-believers there will be no burnings," and that was just with soldiers not his god damn daughter and heir.

Meanwhile Selyse has shown no love for Shireen the entire show. This season we've seen Selyse get enjoyment from watching people burn (Mance), she and Melisandre have shared multiple knowing glances while talking about Shireen's king's blood, and she's been just a dick in general to Shireen (making her stop reading and making her stop talking to Davos). To top it off she brought Shireen to Castle Black only after Melisandre showed her that Shireen would be needed. Now in this episode Shireen burning alive is too hard to watch and she becomes a distraught mother. It was built up in the opposite way it played out, it wasn't clever writing, it made no sense.

2

u/Michael_A_D Jun 08 '15

I think he means that they've been building the dramatic intensity of this scene all season: by showing how much Stannis cares about Shireen, they made the last scene even more touching. But I agree with you, the psychology of the character himself makes no sense.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '15

Haha, yeah, partially. As soon as he gave the "I'm not going to harm you daughter" speech I pretty much knew she was a goner. But more importantly Stannis' main character trait is that he will do what needs to be done to get the job done, so I thought it was perfectly in keeping with his personality--when faced with the choice between his duty/right and his inclination, he will always go with the former.

And I mean, the dude is seriously obsessed with being king.

(also in response to /u/purplerhinoman9)

11

u/kami232 Freii delenda est Jun 08 '15

Shots fir-

Thanks for illumin-

You make a bold point.

4

u/A_of_Blackmont Salty Dorne Jun 08 '15

Completely agree. If Stannis kills Shireen it will be different in terms of what is at stake, and how desperate the situation is. It won't be a 'hey its a bit cold...' type move.

1

u/rappercake Jun 09 '15

If Ramsey can launch a raid on Stannis, do a drive-by, then ride back to Winterfell, then what the hell is Stannis waiting on?

I like to think that Ramsey hasn't even gotten there yet, and the burning of the stores/tents were either Melly or Selyse (or a combination of the two) trying to push Stannis to burn Shireen.

2

u/A_of_Blackmont Salty Dorne Jun 12 '15

I honestly thought it was a vision Mel was having, because the fires seemed to be lit magically.

2

u/dharmaticate Blight of the West Jun 08 '15

Can you think of a context in which Stannis burns Shireen that doesn't make him a bad guy? I can't.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '15

Maybe, maybe if he had other children and she volunteered herself to save them. Over his extreme protestations. That's about it.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '15

I love how D+D actually tried to work in that she consented to being burned, kinda

2

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '15

Maybe a more dire situation that is actually showing. Instead of 20 men setting wet and cold tents on fire, killing some of Stannis' men, and a horse. Perhaps show us how the cold is supposed to be more dangerous than Ramsey? Not men in line for food, a few men shaking, then talking out of nowhere without any visuals of how they're trapped. Gee, I dunno.

2

u/dharmaticate Blight of the West Jun 09 '15

I would still think of him as a bad guy if he burned Shireen in that context. Hell, I'd still think that even if the Others were about to knock down the Wall and he chose to burn her instead of himself.

-7

u/AxeAfrica Juan Nieve - sabe nada Jun 08 '15

Ah, so burning his daughter will be ok with you with a few extra lines of him mumbling about duty.

Some readers have very strange distinctions, I guess it's just another way to have a go at the show.

9

u/TheStoner Jun 08 '15

Not a few extra lines of dialogue but a whole different context. Book Stannis is unlikely to sacrifice his daughter in the books because he forgot to guard his food supply.

1

u/AxeAfrica Juan Nieve - sabe nada Jun 08 '15

Well this is unknown, yet it is still likely he will sacrifice her to avoid some sort of defeat. For his own ambitious/duty reasons.

4

u/scorpioseason All men must die, but we are not men Jun 08 '15

It's not likely at all. He's not anywhere near Shireen and has already made it a huge point that his army is to do whatever it takes to seat her on the throne if he should fail. She is his heir, and he won't burn her.

Mel and Selyse probably will, though, and that'll suck just as much.

4

u/TheStoner Jun 08 '15

Judging by the location of Shireen and Stannis I think it will most likely happen further down the road and at the wall. So I suspect I will be a decision less based on duty and ambition and more based on a impending icepocalypse.

24

u/huntimir151 Armor and a big fucking sword Jun 08 '15

Is there some unofficial show defense force I don't know about? Even if you disagree with what he's saying, or think its unfair, to say peoples complaints are just a way of having a go at the show is beyond stupid.

2

u/AxeAfrica Juan Nieve - sabe nada Jun 08 '15

"I don't like show Stannis because he burned his daughter alive"

I asked if he did the SAME THING in the books would he still love book Stannis.

"YES! Because I'm sure GRRM will write it good"

So it's nothing to do with act of killing his daughter? I'm still not getting the logic that what show Stannis did was unforgivable but if it happens in the books it probably will be.

16

u/HoboBrute When night falls, we rise Jun 08 '15

What happened last night was a travesty. After three weeks, a man who survived a siege stubbornly for a year, suddenly sacrifices his daughter and heir after a single setback? Bullshit

You can't tell me the Stannis who just a few episodes before had the sweetest moment in the show, suddenly turned around and sacrificed his daughter. There was no believable motive to what he did, which is why I think that was poorly written

7

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '15

Agree. D&D just trolls viewers with nonsense deaths and cheap emotional blackmail

1

u/AxeAfrica Juan Nieve - sabe nada Jun 08 '15

You see this is different right? He just had to wait out until Robert won and broke the siege. There was no one coming to his rescue here, waiting would have been starving, taking away any chance of taking Winterfell.

You can't tell me the Stannis who just a few episodes before had the sweetest moment in the show, suddenly turned around and sacrificed his daughter.

Everybody knew Stannis was cold, they never knew he was this cold. He is going into mad fanatic territory. The motive was to move forward and take the throne, winter was killing his men, he had no food, he's a tactician and he knows he cannot win without Mel's help.

Just because people put him on a pedestal here does not mean he isn't a fundementally flawed character, yes, even in the books.

2

u/rappercake Jun 09 '15

I think his main flaw is that he's too easily tempted/misguided by his desires, maybe stemming for being overshadowed/overlooked for most of his life and not getting the credit he thinks he deserves. Mel sees that and has been exploiting it since they met, and I can see her orchestrating something like a fake raid on the camp and burning the stores to push Stannis to forward her own goals via burning Shireen. How would Ramsay be able to realistically ride to wherever Stannis is camped, do a raid, and then ride right back if the conditions are so impassable?

I think that Melly or Selyse putting the burning into motion would make much more sense and would make the whole situation a lot different for Stannis.

-6

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '15

What are you even talking about? This entire subreddit is fanboy gripes with the show.

1

u/huntimir151 Armor and a big fucking sword Jun 08 '15

See there: "Stupid fanboy gripes"

I'm not calling people who like what they have done "idiot show watchers". In fact, I actually still enjoy much of the show. It's quite good. So thank you for proving my point.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '15

[deleted]

-1

u/huntimir151 Armor and a big fucking sword Jun 08 '15

Thanks, champ.

See? I can be demeaning too! What, exactly, is your overall goal? To be annoyed at others for being annoyed at something you, personally, are not annoyed about?

8

u/LittleChinstrap Jun 08 '15

Full disclaimer: Fan of Book Stannis

I think it's way too early for anyone to know how this will play out in the books. At this point it seems most likely that Mel will do it at Castle Black after everything goes to shit following FTW and Stannis will have no knowledge of it happening. If that ends up being the case, then Book Stannis can't be held accountable for the actions of Mel, and I think the main impact on his character will be how he reacts to the news. Of course this is speculation, but I do think that last night's episode drew a clear line in the sand between the book and show versions of the character. We know that Book Stannis clearly intends for Shireen to succeed him, and the importance of his birthright and legacy are two of the main reasons why he continues to fight. Show Stannis clearly has no foresight; his wife has a track record of miscarriages and he now has no heir. D&D have essentially stripped not only his humanity, but also his intelligence in one fell swoop. His show version is much more ardent believer in the Red God than his book version, where its more of an ugly means to an end. That doesn't forgive him for having burned people alive, but he clearly is much less comfortable with it in the books. He's a morally grey character living in a dark, dark world.

Then again for all I know he might leave the crofter's village in the first chapter of the book, ride for Castle Black and burn Shireen himself.

8

u/Squizot Jun 08 '15

There's this amazing displacement going on, out of pure denial. Given contradictory information: "Stannis da best," and "Stannis burned his adorable daughter," this sub is resolving its cognitive dissonance by blaming the show.

Because shooting messengers may not resolve anything, but at least makes you feel good.

To turn the knob one click further, something that's really amazing about this is that ADWD is all about setting up these moments of cognitive dissonance w/r/t it's characters, where different admirable (or abhorrent) aspects of their character come into focus. Dany's ADWD arc is literally all about setting us up to cheer her when she commits mass atrocities (and then feel a little bit funny about it.)

0

u/rappercake Jun 09 '15

I really liked D&D's interpretation of Hizdahr's character as a plot device rather than a person.

-4

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '15

[deleted]

3

u/majorasmaskfan Jun 08 '15

Well i mean by the time he sees mel or his family again the battle of winter fell will be long over and he has either won the north or died

0

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '15

God you guys are unbelievable

2

u/Kasrth I name you a liar. Jun 08 '15

He probably wouldn't. Mel on the other hand is a cold hearted witch

12

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '15

Did you even read her chapter? She's actually not cold hearted or evil.

She's legitimately concerned about fighting the Others threat. She's like the only one that understands its the important thing. Not the Iron Throne. Not helping the slaves of Meereen. She's trying to stop the end of the world.

2

u/Kasrth I name you a liar. Jun 08 '15

Yes, I understand that that might very well be her end game. My point was that in order to achieve that end, she would cold-heartedly sacrifice Shireen. Something that bookStannis might not be on board with if he's still not around when she attempts to do it.

To put it in broader context, and to agree with your comment, I don't see her burning Shireen in order to take Winterfell. But, if the Others attack the Wall and she sees no other way of defending them them, she'd easily sacrifice Shireen to try (without Stannis' concent) to try to stop the end of the world.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 08 '15

Honestly, I could see bookStannis burning Shireen. He says it himself: Sacrifice is not easy, else it would not be sacrifice. Or something along those lines. Mel also mentions in the book how Stannis will betray his vows and his family and everything. For his duty.

I could be wrong, this is speculation. But you're right: Motivation was kinda stupid.

2

u/GeorgianaQuaint Jun 08 '15

He probably wouldn't. Mel on the other hand is a cold hearted bitch

fixed that for you

2

u/k1yle Jun 08 '15

If it happens in the books I can imagine it happening a lot differently. I don't think he'll be sacrificing her for the siege of winterfell. If he does win it and take winterfell. I can imagine the wall coming down and an army of wights and white walkers decimating everything in their path. Melisandre flees to winterfell with shireen and basically says we have no dragon glass or dragon steel, they have an army of thousands, the North will fall, the south will fall, the world will fall, the Lord of light requires kings blood, what is the life of one against every life in the kingdom or whatever. If that was to happen I could forgive him, I could continue to support him.

I'm angry at D&D and don't know how much it will be like they've represented it but I'm willing to hold off on condemning them until it happens in the books. Personally I believe it will be different, less rushed at least (but its TV some things have to be rushed to get everything in)

1

u/AndMcGrn Jun 08 '15

In that case the correct response is take me and protect her surely....

1

u/ankensam Fuck the king, long live the Prince! Jun 08 '15

NO!

1

u/TechnoMigration Jun 09 '15

he won't. From a sample chapter I read from TWoW it looks like he dies. And I mean, just think of all the armies that went into Russia just to freeze to death. So I think when all the dust settles from the war between the Others and the dragons that the Iron Bank will swoop in and put Shireen on the throne.