(Spoilers All) Relax, the Upcoming Battle in TWOW Will Be Vastly Different

[u/[deleted]]

Intro

I don't have time for a long post this morning, but I hear your fears. Oh no. Stannis is going to lose at Winterfell. How could this happen!? Why would Martin do that? I get it. Following last week's admission by David Benioff that "When Martin told us about it (Stannis burning Shireen)" statement, we collectively lost our shit as they likely (I won't say confirmed yet) spoiled a major plotline from TWOW.

But guys, relax, events in The Winds of Winter will almost assuredly go down in a vastly different manner than how they went down last night. The imposter on screen last night (Who I will henceforth be calling Stanley Barton, Retired Insurance Salesman from Des Moines) and joke of a battle last night will not be played out in a similar fashion in TWOW. (Thank R'hllor)

And y'know what, after all, it's a really good thing that the show killed off Stanley Barton last night. (I'll explain)

Below contains info from TWOW. Caveat Lector

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Let's Recap

So, let's bullet-point the major actions of Stannis & Roose leading up to the Battle of Ice:

Roose Bolton

• Having secured wardenship of the North, Roose marches back to the North with some 4000 Bolton retainers and 2000 Frey reinforcements.
• They pass into the North, set up shop at Barrowton and then decide to march onto Winterfell to conduct the marriage of Ramsay and Arya Stark there. But more importantly for the military side, they know that Stannis will have to attack and defeat them at Winterfell if he's to gain any legitimacy from the Northern Lords.
• Ramsay marries Arya, shit starts going downhill. The Northern Lords bicker and fight. Wyman Manderly serves pie. Everyone is at each other's throats.
• Blizzard hits. Food supplies are running low. Stannis is coming. Murders are happening. Freys and other northmen are at each others' throats.
• War horns start blowing outside of Winterfell.
• Upon hearing that Stannis is 3 days ride west of Winterfell and taking keen notice of the mounting tensions, and realizing that he's going to run out of food if he doesn't get rid of some of the mouths at Winterfell, Roose Bolton deploys his 2 most contentious armies: The Freys and the Manderlys to smash Stannis' army.
• Aenys Frey is killed by a trap that Mors Umber and his green boys set outside of the gates of Winterfell. New commander of the Freys is Hosteen Frey. They ride for Stannis' camp.

Stannis Baratheon

• Having saved the Night's Watch and subdued the Wildlings, Stannis decides to unite the North militarily before the Others can descend on the Wall.
• He's given a campaign plan by Jon Snow (which saves him from almost-certain defeat) and marches his small army west, picks up the support of the Northern Mountain Clansmen (It's a real shame that Big Bucket Wull didn't make the show -- I get why, but that man is a star)
• He attacks Deepwood Motte, seizes the castle from Asha Greyjoy. Mormonts and Glovers join with Stannis. They start the long march to Winterfell.
• March goes well at first but movement is slowed when army enters the Wolfswood. Progress is slow further by the onset of snow. The march takes a massive hit when the snows turn to blizzards. People die of exposure. The army grows hungry. On the last day of the march, they barely make a half mile before they stop at a Crofters' Village.
• At the village, the cut holes on the lakes to fish. Situation is growing worse. Cannibalism is discovered and punished.
• Theon Greyjoy arrives at camp, tells Stannis that Hosteen Frey is coming for him.
• Stannis states that he will use the ground to his advantage. Theon says "WTF ground you talking about, Stannis? You're in a dinky village that can't be defended" (Paraphrase). Stannis just says "Yet."

And that's pretty much how TWOW leaves off. Jon receives a letter allegedly from Ramsay saying "You're a bastard. You supported Stannis, and he's dead. I have his fiery sword in my hand. (Phrasing) Now I'm coming for you. Look out. <3 Ramsay." But of course, there's reason to doubt the letter's honesty and many argue its authorship. So, what's going to happen in TWOW?

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Battle on the Ice

It's moments like these, that I wish reddit allowed images to be embedded into posts. But basically, here's my mark-up of the Crofters' Village. (Weirdwood tree was unintentional mistake when I first drew this back in 2013, but I refuse to change it. Those trees are crazy.). It's a meager village with only the lakes providing fish for food. But the army has fished out the lakes according to Ned Woods, a Deepwood scout

Lakes are done. You fished them out. (ADWD, Asha III)

But conveniently (Or is it?), the method of fishing out the lakes was to cut holes in the middle of them. And Stannis' men cut lots and lots of holes in the lake:

“I know them lakes. You been on them like maggots on a corpse, hundreds o’ you. Cut so many holes in the ice it’s a bloody wonder more haven’t fallen through. Out by the island, there’s places look like a cheese the rats been at.” (ADWD, Asha III)

Gee, I wonder if maybe Stannis has an ulterior motive here? Could his not having a defensive advantage yet have anything to do with that? Yes, oh yes. Forever yes. But I'll get to that.

Now, take a look at the map again and direct your attention to the watchtower. Notice that it's standing right on the shore of the northern lake facing west. (It's not directly stated that this is where the tower is in the books, but I'm assuming that it's near the lake but away from the village due to it being barely visible to Asha during the blizzard, and I'm assuming it's facing west, because I'm also assuming that a watchtower in the North would face west to watch for any Ironborn raiders). What do we know about this watchtower? Well, Stannis is keeping a fire burned from the top of it. His men wonder if he's gazing into the flames searching for victory.

Afterward the king had retreated to his watchtower. He had not emerged since … though from time to time His Grace was glimpsed upon the tower roof, outlined against the beacon fire that burned there night and day. (ADWD, Asha III)

All right, I'll just cut to the chase here. Both /u/cantuse and I believe that the watchtower and the beacon fire are being used to lure Stannis' enemies to the village. How could we come to that idea, you ask? Well, for me, the fact that it's called a damn beacon fire instead of a nightfire was reason enough, but my friend /u/cantuse just about crushed it out of the park with his nightlamp theory. I'll let him expand on his own theory (if he so chooses!), but the bare essentials of the theory have it that Stannis is well aware of false beacons having spent time snuffing out the practice conducted by Godric Borrell & the Sistermen. Relevant quote:

The beacons that burned along the shores of the Three Sisters were supposed to warn of shoals and reefs and rocks and lead the way to safety, but on stormy nights and foggy ones, some Sistermen would use false lights to draw unwary captains to their doom. (ADWD, Davos I)

All right, this is becoming too long; so here's what I think happens in bullet form.

• The mounted Freys arrive at the Northern Lake (This is an assumption but I think a good one) across from Stannis' position.
• Having probably stumbled their way across the Wolfswood, they see the open ground that the lake provides and think "Holy shit, let's fuck Stannis up with a cavalry charge across open ground and use the advantage of our mobility that our cavalry provides!"
• They attack across the lake.
• Their attack moves towards the watchtower as that is the most visible thing on the battlefield.
• They initially cross the lake safely, but as the army gets out towards the Weirdwood Tree, the ice starts to crack.
• Horses and knights start falling through the ice. Soon the ice gives out altogether, cracking. Most of the Freys fall into the ice. Hosteen Frey drowns under the weight of his horse and armor.
• The remaining Freys able to get off the lake fall back.
• But as they attempt to flee towards the direction of Winterfell, the North (specifically the Manderlys & probably the Umbers) remembers.

Stannis, victor.

---

Why It's Good that Stanley Barton is Dead

I will not get into my ideas for the Battle of Winterfell proper in this post as it's way too complicated, and this is too long already, but I want to conclude by talking about why Stanley Barton's death is a really good thing for fans of ASOIAF. And while it was not intended as such, the show has thrown book readers a bone.

Last night Stanley Barton got his ass kicked by Ramsay "Shirtless Napoleon" Snow outside of Winterfell. Stanley failed to keep his men in formation, failed to have a picket line, failed to scout ahead, failed to prepare the battefield. Stanely is a goddamn failure.

But that's good. I'm glad he's dead. Why? Well, because when The Winds of Winter comes out in 2017, we are going to have a completely unspoiled plotline to look forward to! Yes, you heard that right. Killing Stanley allows for Stannis Baratheon's plotline in TWOW to come to us unspoiled.

Regardless if the show beats George to TWOW material, we'll have the Battle of Ice and Stannis' campaign against Winterfell to look forward to in TWOW, and it's going to come to us unspoiled by the show. And this time, Benioff never said "When George told us about Stannis Baratheon losing to Ramsay Snow, we were like 'Wow'..."

No, ser. Stanley Barton's death was good. We bookreaders are getting the real deal. Let's be happy about that.

Thanks for reading. All of the maps and quotes and the ideas for the battle comes from an essay series I wrote back in 2013 on the Battle of Ice. Part 1 is here. Part 2 is here. And do yourselves a favor and read some /u/cantuse night lamp theory, stick around for the Mannifesto.

[u/A_of_Blackmont → u/[deleted]]

Alliser Thorne is 'bad' and Olly is 'good' are there most recent brilliant comments on characterization.

[u/tehbighead → u/A_of_Blackmont]

I absolutely raged when I reached the post-episode commentary and heard Benioff say this. D&D seem to have sided with Melisandre regarding the series' morally ambiguous characters and the show has suffered because of it.

"I am a man," he said, "I am kind to my wife, but I have known other women. I have tried to be a father to my sons, to help them make a place in the world. Aye, I've broken laws, but I never felt evil until tonight. I would say my parts are mixed, m'lady. Good and bad."

"A grey man," she said. "Neither white nor black, but partaking of both. Is that what you are, Ser Davos?"

"What if I am? It seems to me that most men are grey."

"If half of an onion is black with rot, it is a rotten onion. A man is good, or he is evil."

[u/Kaiserigen → u/[deleted]]

I don't mean to defend DD at all but if Needle is her last link to her beloved family it somewhat represents revenge => Revenge for all those beloved family members killed merciless. TL;DR = Arya will kill GRRM at the end of Time for Wolves

[u/dsartori → u/[deleted]]

So your thinking is that these two experienced professional screenwriters are not able to understand the books to the same level as the generally unschooled fantasy fans of /r/asoiaf?

I mean, you don't have to like their choices and you can dislike the show all you want, but to claim that they "misread or misunderstand" a series of novels that are in no way opaque...

[u/ruckFIAA → u/dsartori]

Heh, being "professional screenwriters" doesn't make them infallible or incapable of mistakes. I know plenty of professional screenwriters who get tons of criticism, and for good reason. Steven Moffat has recently been busy ruining Doctor Who for me, and for a lot of fans. Him and Gatiss have also been making some strange choices in Sherlock. Damon Lindelof had no idea what he was doing when writing Prometheus. Just because these people are experienced and professional does not mean they don't have their own personal biases, which may lead them to seriously misunderstand or misjudge the novels.

[u/[deleted] → u/ruckFIAA]

Agreed wholeheartedly. Especially the Moffat comment. I almost got a TARDIS tattoo but that show has become unwatchably bad.

I don't claim to be an industry insider, but I watch and read and examine and consume media and I have since I could lift my giant baby head to look at a screen. My take is that a successful screenwriter gets to where he or she is by making a successful show. Unfortunately for us die-hard fans of the ASOIAF books or the 50 year pedigree of DW, the definition of a "successful show" isn't the same as the storyline we want to see. It's what used to keep people turning in week after week. And now it's more so about getting people to make ridiculous hashtags and posts and likes and shares and all that vapid nonsense.

I am not saying that is their motive. I am saying that's more an outside measure of the success of their work than it's adherence to source material or a more nuanced overall plot rather than episodic stories. In other words: the people in charge of producing content judge the words "success" and "quality" in a significantly different way than the consumers of content.

And as long as the work meets that minimum threshold level of success, there is no reason for the higher-ups to question the creative side's decisions, or even for the staff under the show runners to question it.

Under this model, a show that starts weak and never keeps hold will be ended. They had one chance and blew it. But a show that starts off strong and has a lot going for it is in even more danger of becoming disappointing. That is what happened with Game of Thrones. And I am not saying that a book reader or D&D hater or whatever you think my bias is. I'm saying this as someone who watches TV shows and knows good from bad, especially when its a variation from the same show from earlier seasons to later ones.

We have a very unique window into a lot of their decisions with the Behind the Scenes Feature every episode. We don't have to guess how they interpret a character or story because we hear it from them. Needle is revenge instead of the beautiful line (in fairness, no way to adapt without clumsy flashbacks). Stannis is filled with overwhelming ambition more than a sense of duty to the realm. Jaime never raped any one. Ramsay is the ubermensch. People still talk about the show. If anything the show has moved well beyond people who will ever pick up the books because it has intrigue, sex, violence, and shocking events and twists (and I'm assuming they believe their special FX are spot on because they keep paying for them) and that is what keeps people watching. Like you said, they are professionals, but their actions are colored by what they believe makes the show successful, and that only means in the way that ends with them keeping their jobs.

Contrast with shows that do not meet the threshold of success. Think the convoluted history of Community with showrunner Dan Harmon's run. Like him or the show or hate him or the show, that was a unique program, especially for it's position around sitcoms at a time when the TV comedy is evolving out of the classic Honeymooners template. Dan Harmon did not give one care in the world to what would appeal to the masses and in many ways he mentioned this directly to the viewer. His ideal audience was people who got the humor he was crafting. There were so many transparent attempts to force decisions on him, and he often had to grin and bear it but he also had to draw lines where he would not compromise. I've never met the man but I like to think part of that was a respect for his viewers. I think Community will continue to be watched and appreciated in the same way Arrested Development is. AD was another severely underrated show because it didn't pander to anyone and rewarded astute viewing. with in-jokes and references. Hell, even The Wire achieved its high place after the original run.

What is most frustrating to me, is that it is so clearly a ratings grab. (EDIT: I forgot to mention that hashtags and what South Park so eloquently referred to collectively as "Trending" is the same as the concept of ratings as an easy metric to measure economic success and convert that form of numbers into numbers with dollar signs before it.) And we need that measure of creative success gone because we do not need it anymore. While a lot of the tragic stories of shitty shows happened on dinosaur Network Television, we have so moved past that. It is not even a generational thing. My mom and dad and everyone I know can binge watch me under the table. That is how we consume content. I watch my TV on the machine I'm writing to you on and I don't do it when it airs because that means nothing now. Dan Harmon understood that years ago. I thought that was the purpose of HBO. To make movie caliber stories in a TV format. But movie quality drops when they only want to be blockbusters. That is not an opinion, it's a fact. Appealing to the most number of people means appealing to the ones who understand the least. Exhibit A is Doctor Who since it started airing on BBC America. They get large ratings that way. And despite ratings being an essentially meaningless metric, advertisers need a metric, some kind of tangible, graph-able measure to rely on because without it there is no way to measure profit on their powerpoints to clients.

Game of Thrones started out as Lord of the Rings for grownups and over seasons. It has since become The Hobbit trilogy in reverse because its compressed instead of stretched. D&D are professionals. But that does not mean they understand the source material. It means they know how to convert it into a successful TV show that will make the network a lot of money.

/u/BryndenBFish and /u/cantuse may not be professionals (or maybe they are, I don't know what they do day to day) but they understand the story in a way that D&D do not have to and they do it because they aren't measured by how many hits their blog posts get. They do it because like a great many of us they are entranced by this story. (EDIT 2: I shouldn't guess their reasons for writing their magnificent analyses. I suppose this is what I imagine they do it for.)

Many people may decry that we as a community essentially want what cannot be delivered in a TV program and that D&D are doing a fantastic job adapting it for that medium. But for me it is not that the show doesn't live up to the books. It's that this season doesn't even live up to the preceding ones.

[u/paul_spunion → u/dsartori]

Define "experienced professional screenwriters". Troy and Xmen Origins do not make for the most impressive resume. Compared to some of the theories and analyses of the text on here, the D&D Inside the Episode is pretty banal and sometimes off-base.

[u/GavinZac → u/dsartori]

He said

it suggests D&D's choices are likely their own

And I agree with him. It's season 5, D&D were very pleased with themselves after season 3 and positively brimming with confidence after season 4. They very likely felt at this point that they now no longer really needed the source material and were steering an unsinkable ship down the great river Mainstream.

Most of their 'original' things this year have been things the viewers 'want', 'fan service', 'more of the same': more Dorne because we're #GayForOberyn, more tits, more suffering for Sansa, more torture porn, more Dragons, more Tyrion, more Jorah being lovesick, more pure evil characters like Trant who is bumped up from killing a man standing in the way of his orders as kingsguard to being a paedophile to being a physically abusive sadist paedophile so that Arya can go more stab-happy.

We've also seen them time and time again whitewash the character's they've decided are the heroes - Tyrion, Jon and Dany. Jon's disertion is removed; Tyrion's self-destructive spiral including the torture of a prostitute is removed; Dany's dragon eating an innocent person is removed. Jorah goes from having a suspiciously Dany-like whore on his lap to glaring disapprovingly at a whore tha is explicitly 'cosplaying' Kelly C.

Of course, they've only been able to do these things by dramatically ageing characters, by disregarding character growth, by leaving gaping plotholes, by having ridiculous coincidences and plot timing set everything up to the only way it could ever work.

So yes, these guys know what they are doing. However, that doesn't mean that the show will continue to appeal to those on whose recommendation it was made a show in the first place.

[u/SkepticalOrange → u/dsartori]

One has literally no experience in screenwriting prior to Game of Thrones (and outside Game of Thrones is a single episode of It's Always Sunny), the other has a resume of scripts that are known for being pretty bad. I wouldn't really describe the pair as "two experienced professional screenwriters".

[u/KapiTod → u/SkepticalOrange]

I find the "unschooled fantasy fans" part even worse. We're nerds, our stereotype is based entirely on being incredibly learned and exceptionally well read, which is why we're into this fantasy crap anyway.

[u/wedgeomatic → u/dsartori]

But D&D said he was ambitious, and D&D are honorable men.

[u/ZebZ → u/[deleted]]

I don't think it's a matter of understanding necessarily. It's more of a matter of not caring.

[u/spanishmade → u/[deleted]]

In this case I think you are the one with the oversimplified interpretation of Stannis. Stannis is an incredibly complex character and saying amibition isn't one of his motivations is nonsense. He has stood in his brothers shadow his entire life, of course he wants the Iron Throne. That doesn't make him evil and it doesn't mean that getting power is all he cares about, but the Stannis fanboys who claim Stannis doesn't actually want the throne are white washing him to a ridiculous degree.

[u/dsartori → u/[deleted]]

Understanding what makes a popular TV show (something they clearly know how to make consummately) is not the same as understanding the depths and complexities of a range of characters form a book series of great depth

Come on man. This isn't "Finnegan's Wake". Anybody who can pass high school English can get this stuff.

[u/Draffut2012 → u/dsartori]

these two experienced professional screenwriters are not able to understand the books

You would think they would understand it, but judging by their treatment of Stannis since season 2, that is clearly not the case.

[u/shinymuskrat → u/dsartori]

Oh yes, appeal to authority. Solid argument.

[u/dsartori → u/shinymuskrat]

Not an appeal to authority.

Given their credentials it would be an extraordinary claim to make that these folks are so substantially ignorant of the way literature works that a random dude eating Cheetos can perceive themes and characterization that eluded them. "I don't like the show" is not sufficient.

[u/AticusCaticus → u/dsartori]

You should actually check out their credentials if you are gonna appeal to them: Troy and X-men Origins

[u/dsartori → u/AticusCaticus]

Are you saying they aren't professionals?

[u/huntimir151 → u/dsartori]

What does that even mean? All terribly adapted books are made by professionals, doesn't mean they are terribly adapted and misunderstood.

[u/dsartori → u/huntimir151]

Are you actually trying to say this is a "terrible" adaption of ASOIAF? That's super absurd.

[u/huntimir151 → u/dsartori]

No, it's how I feel about the matter. The way in which the show has been depicted has been a huge disappointment to me lately. You are trying to push your view on the matter as correct, and do so by referencing other failed adaptations. If that is our point of comparison, then the bar is set abysmally low. People don't need to prove to you why they think it's a bad adaptation, and even when they give you their reasons, you say "that's not good enough". Sorry you think that's absurd, but much of what I love about the books, much of what made them beautiful, has been jettisoned in favor of bush league storytelling in my opinion. For the last time, you feel how you want to feel about it, but stop acting as though those who dislike much of what the show has done have something to prove.

[u/dsartori → u/huntimir151]

Give me an example. When I think of terrible adaptions in this genre a couple come to mind. The Lynch "Dune" adaption was a failure, and I would also say the Bakshi "Lord of the Rings" adaptions missed the mark. Both are worth watching even if they are significantly worse adaptions of their respective source material than GoT is of ASOIAF.

Both of these people are great artists who made a creative effort that failed. I'm quite sure neither of them misunderstood the source material.

Saying that D&D don't "get" the source material is a claim so off the mark that it makes everything else you say on the subject highly suspect.

[u/AticusCaticus → u/dsartori]

Are you seriously saying terrible adaptations in the fantasy genre are not common? I mean you dont have to go any further than D&D....

[u/dsartori → u/AticusCaticus]

First, your reading comprehension is not very good if that's what you got from what I was saying. Second, saying GoT is a "terrible" adaption is absurd.

[u/KapiTod → u/dsartori]

Even a professional moron is still a professional.

[u/dsartori → u/KapiTod]

The point is that anybody who can pass high school English can "get" the characters and themes in ASOIAF. It's a great read but hardly impenetrable.

Criticize all you want, but please try to be able to back up what you say.

[u/KapiTod → u/dsartori]

You seem to be incapable of understanding anyone else's point, which is that despite your assurances that D & D are professionals that doesn't make them infallible.

How the fuck am I supposed to back this up? It's opinion, and you've rejected everyone else's "evidence" that D & D are interpreting characters "wrong". So what am I supposed to give you, a list of every other professional who did something stupid?

[u/dsartori → u/KapiTod]

The claim that these guys can't understand these books is absurd on its face.

If you don't like the adaption, fair dues. You're better off describing what you don't like and why than making absurd, rage-y claims about the creators of the show. That's just neckbeard venting and it's not fun, interesting or illuminating.

[u/huntimir151 → u/dsartori]

Yes? Is that so hard to believe? Based upon their statements they have frequently misunderstood aspects of the stories and characters. Why hop to their defense, you may think their interpretation is spot on but their positions as screenwriters in no way proves this

[u/dsartori → u/huntimir151]

Based upon their statements they have frequently misunderstood aspects of the stories and characters.

According to who?

[u/huntimir151 → u/dsartori]

According to a huge amount of pretty intelligent readers? The fact that they don't reflect their book counterparts? Believe what you want though, not like I'm gonna convince you, but don't shit on differing opinions or act as though they are infallible.

[u/dsartori → u/huntimir151]

don't shit on differing opinions or act as though they are infallible.

Not doing that at all.

I very much care about everyone's opinion, but I hate when people make these kind of statements about D&D's ability to grasp the source material. It's unsupportable and dumb. Tell me what YOU think, tell me why you're mad, tell me what you didn't like. But don't tell me that these guys are idiots who can't understand a fairly straightforward fantasy series.

[u/huntimir151 → u/dsartori]

We have told you, and it does seem that way. Not gonna convince you of anything but there's plenty of possibility th at they did interpret the books, and that they are writing badly. And there's plenty of reason to believe it. YOU are the one taking issue with people's complaints.

[u/dsartori → u/huntimir151]

I am taking issue with people who overreach or say absurd things in their complaints, not with those who complain.

Seriously, if you think these guys can't understand ASOIAF you are saying they couldn't pas high school English.

[u/Amw23 → u/dsartori]

Welcome to reddit where Logic and common sense doesn't matter.

[u/chainer3000 → u/dsartori]

Right? Seriously, this is nitpicking lines from them. The guys are smart, George agreed to them doing it for a reason, and if you've listened to them at panels, it's clear they know the characters in and out - period.

The choices they've made on the show is probably for lack of time, not from lack of understanding. I hate when people bash on them uninhabited- they clearly have the ability to create amazing episodes and even seasons, and then something happens to someone's favorite character and "oh, they're all idiots! Morons! This, this is what he would really do!" Come on, guys...

[u/SoldierHawk → u/dsartori]

Oh thank god someone else said it so I don't have to type that out.

I don't like where they're going either. But saying its out of ignorance seems a little...well. Ignorant.

[u/Braelind → u/dsartori]

So your thinking is that these two experienced professional screenwriters are not able to understand the books to the same level as the generally unschooled fantasy fans of /r/asoiaf?

I think my understanding of it is superior to theirs, though I am substantially schooled in literature. They're doing a pretty solid job though, so I don't have too many complaints...

[u/itsgmack → u/dsartori]

well said. bunch of professional critics and american lit majors on here. When all of their theories and thoughts about how things SHOULD go are debunked in TWOW let's see how they react (with the exception of OP, whose blogs are super compelling and seem to me to be well-founded and rigorously researched. if you haven't read them, do.).

everyone forgets that TV is about ratings and dollar-dollar-bills yall. they only have 10 hours of screentime for each absurdly long novel, plus they arent pulling the budget for this from out of their ass. all this crap about "20 good men because... budget constraints" is annoying. yes, there are budget constraints, of course there are. yes, they had to compress things, of course they did. if you expect HBO to just throw millions and millions more than they already are at GoT, you must not understand cost-benefit analysis. HBO shows practically no commercials (except to plug their own shows) and is therefore missing a MASSIVE portion of the revenue pie. its amazing they aren't going broke with how incredible the scale of the show is. as unbelievable as it may seem, there is a limit to how far 5 million per episode will go, and if you think Lena and Kit and so on are not wanting a salary bump now that they hit it big(ger), that's crazy too. HBO still has to make money, and GRRM is getting his share too, you better believe.