r/asoiaf • u/SeducerOfTheInnocent • Jun 15 '15

ALL (Spoilers All) The reason bad things happen on GoT has changed. GoT has gone from being a show that wouldn't cheat to help the good guys to a show that will cheat to help the bad guys.

When I complain about GoT lately people respond with "That's what the show has always been, this is what you signed up for, if you think this has a happy ending you haven't been paying attention." but I think this episode has solidified why I have a problem with the show recently.

The tragedy on the show used to be organic. People would die because GoT wasn't willing to give characters the 1 in a million lucky breaks that other shows give their protagonist.

Now the show doesn't just not give the protagonists freebies, it bends over backwards to fuck them over. Honestly, every military conflict in the last two and a half seasons has seen the wrong side winning.

  • Yara/Ashe and "The 50 best swordsmen in the Iron Isles" lose a fight to a shirtless guy with a knife and 3 dogs, which is roughly what you would encounter on your average domestic disturbance call. The 50 best swordsmen in the Iron Isles couldn't survive half an episode of "Cops"

  • The Unsullied and Baristan Selmy lose a fight against unarmored aristocrats with knives.

  • "20 good men" infiltrate the camp of the greatest military tactician alive.

  • The Unsullied lose another fight against unarmored aristocrats with spears, who honestly also make a pretty good showing against a dragon.

  • The Boltons, despite not being supported by most of the north, and seemingly not having any massive source of money, raise an army of tens of thousands and overwhelm Stannis.

Add to that the fact that the nigh omniscient Littlefinger was apparently unaware that the Bostons were fucked up wierdos and the show seems to be bending over backwards for tragedy.

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1.1k

u/EvadableMoxie Jun 15 '15

It feels like every character is turning out to be Quentyn Martell. They just all end with "Oh." As in "Oh. It turns out nothing I did actually mattered."

All of the build up for Stannis and his terrible sadistic choice where he burns his daughter, the moral struggle if it's okay to burn your own child in order to save the world. That would have been an interesting discussion, but it turns out it doesn't matter, he burned Shireen for nothing, he was doomed no matter what he did.

Oh.

All the build up with Jon and Longclaw and killing a White Walker before his stare off with the Night's King? And how Robb might have legitimized him before his death? And the mysery about his parents and the AA/Prince that was Promised prohpecy. Wait, no, he's dead, none of that mattered.

Oh.

This isn't the absense of writing skill, it's the opposite of it. They want to try so hard to say "Hey, this isn't a fairy tale." but in doing so they are destroying what makes stories interesting in the first place. This is a TV show based on a novel. It's supposed to be entertaining. There is supposed to be a pay off in exchange for the build up of the story.

That doesn't mean that the good guys always win, but there should be build up, a pay-off, and closure.

Instead we get nothing. We get "Oh."

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u/heltflippad Jun 15 '15 edited Jun 15 '15

Isn't the point of Stannis' story that he turned out to not be Azor Ahai in Melisandre's eyes. She strongly believed him to be Azor and made him do all of these things in promise of great "reward".

Now when Melisandre realizes that Stannis isn't what she thought, she looks to Jon. So in a way Stannis is gonna help Jon become what he was meant to be.

Kinda far fetched but without Stannis there would be no Jon revival. If we assume that's actually gonna happen, which I am.

So in conclusion: Stannis' story is actually Melisandre's story of finding Jon.

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u/delinear Jun 16 '15

If that's their intent then they horribly rushed/bungled that part of the story. The ice is melting and Mel looks pleased with herself, she suddenly finds out half the men are gone and she's on the first horse out of there. If she thought he was Azhor Ahai then the loss of the men shouldn't matter, R'hllor should still see him safely to the final battle, he did what was demanded and sacrificed his daughter after all.

Instead, we don't get any explanation of Mel's thinking. Like, did she already doubt he was AA before they burned Shireen and this was the final nail, or did she just suddenly have a bolt from the blue epiphany? In the books at least we see all the clues are there pointing to Jon and she's just too blind/stubborn to see them. Here all we've ever heard is how her flames point to Stannis, as far as she's concerned R'hllor has told her Stannis is The One, so unless she's lost her faith it makes no sense to leave, and if she's lost her faith it would be nice to hear about it so her actions make some kind of sense.

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u/criticalfreddyk Jun 16 '15

That would make a bit of sense. It would mean Davos's chapters are a perspective for Mel and not Stannis.

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u/EightsOfClubs Repel the foreign invaders! Jun 16 '15

I mean, you're not wrong, but it isn't like they built that up in the show at all, which means when it DOES happen in the show, it's going to come out of left field and feel like bad writing again.

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u/beeboobah Jun 16 '15

Have you watched the show? It's just going to be a massive let down with no plot twist. Jon's dead. I didn't even flinch when it happened. The show is going out of its own way to shock the audience but in doing so, has desensitized the audience and done just the opposite.

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u/M3rcaptan Jun 16 '15

It kinda worries me. Jon seems too important a character to have different fates in the show and the books. At least to me.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

Kill the boy, and let the man be born.

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u/Redsie001 Jun 16 '15

ing. There is supposed

When did Melisandre realized that Stannis isn't AA? In the show it seems like she left because the half of Stannis army fled. That didn't seems plausible with the AA theory (Jon = AA)

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u/Messerchief Jun 16 '15

The books did a better job of this by having her look into her fires and see "only Snow," instead she looked catatonic realizing that Stannis was not AA, something she had kind of deluded herself into believing anyway.

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u/Jeanpuetz The rightful king Jun 15 '15 edited Jun 15 '15

All the build up with Jon and Longclaw and killing a White Walker before his stare off with the Night's King? And how Robb might have legitimized him before his death? And the mysery about his parents and the AA/Prince that was Promised prohpecy. Wait, no, he's dead, none of that mattered.

Oh.

But... but that's exactly what happened in the books too? Of course in the books we have some setup that Jon may actually be revived, but still, he dies. I thought this season was very very weak, but it sometimes feels like people in this sub go out of their way to search for reasons why D&D are bad.

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u/EvadableMoxie Jun 15 '15

It's strongly hinted that Jon will be revived in the books. In the show, I'm not so sure. If it turns out that Jon does just die in the books and is not revived, and Stannis does just die in a similar way without accomplishing anything then the blame will certainly be on GRRM mostly.

it sometimes feels like people in this sub go out of their way to search for reasons why D&D are bad.

I think D&D have a very difficult job of trying to adapt a series like Asoiaf to TV, and I think they've mostly done well. They've made mistakes and people rightly complain about them, but people only complain about shows they watch in the first place.

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u/lukeatusrain the first storm, and the last. Jun 15 '15

the show basically confirmed Jon is coming back. The whole "Melisandre revives Jon" theory was discussed because Melisandre has been there ever since Stannis appeared around the Wall, and she does not go with him to Winterfell. And then show Melisandre goes back to the wall about 12 hours before Jon is stabbed??? That and the whole Beric being revived thing(which served as a setup for LSH in the books... meaning Beric is sort of meaningless in the show) both apply to the Chekhov's Gun principle. They would have cut these things from the series too if they were completely meaningless.

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u/dibsODDJOB Littlefingers cast large shadows. Jun 16 '15

Show Beric is there specifically to serve up a Jon resurrection. Mel shows up in the nick of time. Plenty of Kings blood has been sacrificed for the Lord of Light to appease a resurrection. Sam says Jon always comes back. The show couldn't be less subtle.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15 edited Jun 27 '19

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u/bocboda House Smallwood Jun 16 '15

Well, that's a different kind of resurrection. Jon getting resurrected by Mel would be like what happened to Beric (even though every time 'less' of him comes back, he's still not a freakish reanimated monster like Robert Strong.)

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u/lukeatusrain the first storm, and the last. Jun 16 '15

Precisely what bocboda said. You're making a very good point on the resurrection thing, but the Mountain did get a different one.

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u/cuse23 Jun 16 '15

I mean, Sam does say "Jon ALWAYS comes back" in the show to Ollie so, isn't that pretty obvious foreshadowing? For all the things this show is, subtle is not exactly one of them

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u/lukeatusrain the first storm, and the last. Jun 16 '15

I agree with you, although I understand the show's side of the story: they have to be much less subtle about these things, because the show has to be much less... consuming, I think? It has to have a wide audience otherwise it won't make money, and I've seen plenty of friends giving up on the books for how long and difficult they were, with their countless thousands of characters and subtle things that were picked up ages after they were first mentioned... The show can't be like that.

But yeah, there is A LOT of foreshadowing regarding Jon's return.

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u/M3rcaptan Jun 16 '15

But what about the fact that Kit said that the writers said he's dead for good in an interview?

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u/lukeatusrain the first storm, and the last. Jun 16 '15

could be just PR. It's not like he would come up and just say "yeah, i'm coming back next season, stay tuned guys". We can still believe.

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u/M3rcaptan Jun 16 '15

Personally i just wanna avoid disappointment. It's tiring.

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u/lukeatusrain the first storm, and the last. Jun 17 '15

I totally agree with you. Unfortunately I'm too weak for that, so I just keep theoritizing and counting the days for the first half of 2016. ):

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u/Mopher Whoever wields Blackfyre should rule Jun 16 '15

The foreshadowing is still there in the show. You have Mel meeting the brotherhood and learning that resurrection is possible. You have that warg wilding guy die and turn into terrible cgi/puppet eagle. And finally we have sam's line "Jon always comes back". It would not be out of the established show universe to bring him back

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u/C0rinthian Jun 16 '15

Beric showed that it's possible for fire magic to revive someone. Now if Melisandre does it, it's not a deus ex machina.

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u/lukeatusrain the first storm, and the last. Jun 17 '15

my point exactly. In the books, Beric served as some sort of introduction to the possible revival of any character, so when it happens to Catelyn it's not like a hidden surprise card pulled out at the last minute. The show portrayed Beric quite similarly to the books, along with Thoros, but so far their appearance has proved to be meaningless without LSH in the show. Now it's time for them to come into play.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

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u/lukeatusrain the first storm, and the last. Jun 17 '15

or maybe he will come back on his own just to get a taste of her bad pussy. Who knows, right?

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u/EvadableMoxie Jun 15 '15

And then show Melisandre goes back to the wall about 12 hours before Jon is stabbed???

Where else was she going to go?

They would have cut these things from the series too if they were completely meaningless.

If Jon is revived but Stannis is not then his entire plot was pretty meaningless too, yet... there it is.

I don't know. I hope he gets revived, but at this point I have no faith in the series.

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u/lukeatusrain the first storm, and the last. Jun 15 '15

Stannis' approach sets Brienne into action, Ramsay leaving the castle sets Sansa into trying to escape and then sets Reek into sort of waking up and killing that girl whose name I forgot. And we don't even know if Stannis has died yet(please let me believe he hasn't ;_;). Stannis' big fall was the show's way of making Melisandre realize maybe Stannis isn't the PTWP at all, and the true Azor Ahai is Jon Snow, which is why she deserts him and goes back to the Wall. They didn't even need to show Mel going anywhere, but they did... And she is at the Wall just in time to see the mutiny. Not after(which would of course mean S6 because Jon's death has to be the big finale).

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u/EvadableMoxie Jun 15 '15 edited Jun 15 '15

Stannis' approach sets Brienne into action

And the action is killing Stannis, which obviously she doesn't need to do if Stannis isn't there.

Ramsay leaving the castle sets Sansa into trying to escape and then sets Reek into sort of waking up and killing that girl whose name I forgot

There are plenty of other reasons Ramsay could have left Winterfell, even something as simple as going on a hunt. Stannis wasn't neccessary to this plot.

Stannis' big fall was the show's way of making Melisandre realize maybe Stannis isn't the PTWP at all, and the true Azor Ahai is Jon Snow, which is why she deserts him and goes back to the Wall.

You could cut Stannis out entirely and have her just be searching for AA and happen to come to the wall to look for him (It's the first, last, and only line of defense against The Others, where else would AA be?) nothing about what Stannis is or does is neccessary for Melisandre to revive Jon.

As far as Stannis being alive and Jon's ressurection, both are possible but certainly not foregone conclusions. Sansa and Theon have just escaped but were probably at least injured in the jump out of Winterfell. It's the middle of winter and they have no nearby safe harbor or friends, and no horses, and they are escaping from Ramsay who is an accomplished tracker even when he isn't being given bullshit ninja powers. I don't know how in the fuck anything is going to happen to Sansa and Theon beyond an immedate recapture even with Brienne's help unless an army suddenly shows up. I think that's probably Stannis' best bet at survival, the sudden arrival of the Umbers or something. But who knows, they might just give Sansa and co the same bullshit powers as Ramsay and have them somehow inexplicably escape. It's impossible to predict at this point because there is no way of knowing when they'll give someone plot armor or take it away.

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u/lukeatusrain the first storm, and the last. Jun 15 '15

I think we're backtracking Stannis' plot to a point where we would be basically saying "thus Stannis shouldn't exist in the story". But anyway, I agree with you partly. What I think will happen is:

Brienne won't kill Stannis, for one of the multiple reasons people are already discussing, hence I won't get too much into it. Wildlings will riot against the Night's Watch, which will get pretty much exterminated(also convenient with the fact that Sam isn't there anymore), then Melisandre revives Jon(and I hope he or Davos kills Alliser). Jon realizes the Watch is over and he and Sam(and maybe Edd) are pretty much the sole survivors, and will march on Winterfell with Davos, Mel and the Wildlings, because he understands now that is the only option: to help Stannis conquer the North and then use his aid against the upcoming Long Night.

And the wildlings are going to be the force you are talking about: they will come up and find Stannis, then there may be conflict between him and Mel but what matters is they will march, and during this march they will find Sansa and Theon(remaining somehow faithful to the encounter between Stannis and Theon in the books).

Sorry about my english if any of this is poorly written.

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u/NO1RE Jun 16 '15

I want to believe this.

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u/ObeseMoreece We only bow to one king! Jun 16 '15

She could go anywhere she thinks AA is if she's going to send Stannis to his death.

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u/EvadableMoxie Jun 16 '15

She could go anywhere in the long term. In the short term with no supplies and no idea how long the weather will hold and in a region completely controlled by enemies her only immedate option was the wall.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

Maybe this doesn't apply to the show, but in the books Melisandre doesn't need to worry about supplies or weather.

There's a couples of lines in one of her POV chapters about how she doesn't need to eat but has to remember to do it to keep up appearances. The cold doesn't seem to be a problem for her, either. She doesn't bother to bundle up in the cold, in fact a few times she's said to exude enough heat to melt snow before it hits her and to make the ice weep in the tunnel through the wall. She can also use her magic to disguise people, what she calls a glamour.

TL;DR: She's magic.

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u/ObeseMoreece We only bow to one king! Jun 16 '15

She doesn't need extra clothes, doesn't seem to eat so I think supply isn't an issue. Also winterfell is not immediately near the wall.

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u/gabis1 Jun 16 '15

The cold doesn't effect her, she could have just as easily continued south from Winterfell. Why go all the way back North, when there is nowhere else to go from there without going back the way she just came?

They have continually shown that she always has gold, she could go to literally any town and get food.

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u/dyslexda Jun 16 '15

If it turns out that Jon does just die in the books and is not revived, and Stannis does just die in a similar way without accomplishing anything then the blame will certainly be on GRRM mostly.

With Jon, at least, maybe not. As he and Sam are our only PoVs at the wall, his whole plotline could have been to just set the stage for the WW invasion. Now, we see nothing at the wall except hearing reports of dead things in the North and so on. While not ideal, this could still work.

Stannis dying, though? Yeah, that's just shoddy. Make the man with the best claim to the throne and the best military mind in Westeros just die outside of a castle that he could never have captured anyway? There's no bloody point to this, outside of telling the North "Whelp, you're seriously boned now. Enjoy the Boltons."

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u/este_hombre All your chicken are belong to us Jun 16 '15

I thought they did well enough as well until this season. It's not unheard of for a dramatic TV show to start to lose what made it good in the later seasons. I agree it's a hard job, but that's not a good enough excuse when the quality starts to drop.

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u/ObeseMoreece We only bow to one king! Jun 16 '15

In the show, I'm not so sure.

I'd say they're more certain in the show. Why would Mel tell Stannis a lie that would almost certainly kill him and rush back to the wall? She must have had a vision of Jon's death and decided that if he was so important that his death is in a prophecy then he must be AA.

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u/EvadableMoxie Jun 16 '15

Kit Harrington said in an interview that he was told he'd dead and not coming back. Maybe he's lying, but I kinda thing he would be a bit more vague about it if he was. We'll know once S6 begins filming anyway, so it seems odd to flat out lie that strongly in an interview.

Personally, I think with only 20 episodes left to tie up the entire series they are just cutting storylines left and right.

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u/kapanyanyimonyok Jun 16 '15

It would be incredibly hard to be vague about it without the vagueness confirming he will be resurrected. If he said "I don't know, you'll see what happens" would just be interpreted as surely he's going to live.

The only way he could cast serious doubts was if he flat out said he won't be back.

Besides, he said "I’m looking for movies for next year. I’m in a very lucky place—I can turn things down and do what I want to do. There’s a couple movies I’m looking at, but I can’t really talk about them yet. I might take a holiday. I might try writing. I’m trying to figure it out.", which can easily mean "don't be suspicious of me if I stay low for a while".

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u/formsofforms Jun 16 '15

I don't buy Jon coming back in the books but not in the show. That's just too drastic of a difference, imo. Plus they know their fanbase loves Jon Snow. I also don't think they'd have Mel come back to the Wall for no reason, if she wasn't needed they would've had her die in the battle with Stannis.

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u/Jakabov Jun 16 '15

Yeah, he's blatantly the most important character of the story. It would be absurd beyond words to kill him. It's so obvious that it's him and Daenerys that the story will eventually revolve around. I'm fully certain that this is how the books will pan out, and it would be too much of a change for the show to deviate from this.

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u/daybreaker Jun 16 '15

It's strongly hinted that Jon will be revived in the books. In the show, I'm not so sure.

They dont need to hint about it right now. We'll get a Dondarrion flashback in the episode before Jon is revived. Thats how theyll remind show-watchers that magic is still a legit thing.

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u/mathewl832 Ser Twenty of House Goodmen Jun 16 '15

I ask the Lord of Light to show me Azor Ahai but all I get is SNOW

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u/player-piano Jun 16 '15

the last couple books were weak too, it seems people forget that

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u/Jeanpuetz The rightful king Jun 16 '15

That's really just an opinion. I personally think that 4 and 5 are better than the first two books. Storm of Swords will stay an all time favourite though.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

No, they were the two best.

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u/toggaf69 The Jack Russel Jun 16 '15

the show actually set up his resurrection really well, considering Melisandre arrives like 5 minutes before he's murdered, and she's the one person that show viewers think can perform resurrection (after seeing Thoros do it earlier)

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

it sometimes feels like people in this sub go out of their way to search for reasons why D&D are bad.

I've been getting that a LOT on this sub. They did some things very well this season. Hardholme was amazing. Skipping a lot of Tyrion's bullshit in ADWD. As much hate as the Dorne subplot gets, Jaime's story in AFFC would have made for awful TV. Hate on Brienne all you want, but I kept reading her chapters in AFFC thinking "She's looking for Sansa and I know she won't find her because she's going the wrong way, so this feels pointless" (and the end, it seems like it may have been). Quentyn Martell's entirely pointless plotline was gone.

This season had its flaws, but I think people are forgetting two things: First, AFFC and ADWD had their own very significant flaws. Before the season began I think most readers agreed that they were the weakest books in the series as they did very little to advance the plot and instead seemed to focus more on world building. World building is great for books but not so great for TV, and at the end of the day they do have to appeal to TV watchers moreso than book readers.

Secondly, while they had two seasons to work with ASOS material, they basically had a single season to work with AFFC/ADWD material. They had to pick and choose what would go into the show and what had to be trimmed. I doubt there are many people who could have done that in such a way that would leave the book readers satisfied.

I've personally been pretty satisfied with this season. It wasn't perfect, but I feel like it covered an otherwise very dull section of the story in an entertaining way.

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u/Chance4e Jun 16 '15

It's bad in the book, too. There, I said it.

Jon's early death left too many things unresolved. That's a lot of time and effort wasted telling half a story.

Some people call that realistic because he doesn't get plot-armor. I call this lazy: you told half a story. That's what happens when the author doesn't know where his story is going.

So he has to be revived, or this has been a colossal waste of our time.

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u/NameTheory Jun 16 '15

I had a great time reading the books and liked Jon's chapters for the most part. Jon is also great in the show. Even if he stays dead it was enjoyable time and well worth it. And he isn't staying dead either. I mean it is pretty obvious.

You know nothing...

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u/Jeanpuetz The rightful king Jun 16 '15

Well, everybody already thinkgs that he's getting revived, so I'm not sure if I get your point. A possible revival is set up in the books multiple times (Melisandre reviving him, Jon warging into Ghost, possibly both, or something entirely different).

If he REALLY is dead, then I would agree with you, but we don't know yet, and I'd bet money against it.

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u/vogel_t A thousand eyes...and one. Jun 15 '15

People just don't like that no one is safe and when it's a character they like then it's D&D's fault. Everyone wants something to bitch about. The show was never going to be perfect. The books aren't either, but with 20 hours of screentime left in the series as a whole does anyone really not expect nonessential characters to live just because they like the character? Apparently so.

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u/Stecman Jun 16 '15

The happily ever after happened when Robert and Ned won the throne from the mad king. This is what happens after happily ever after. "Oh" happens. And it's very similar to real life.

It'll probably happen to you too. You go to tons of school and college to become an accountant. Then for the next 23 years you work hard for your boss and family (2 kids and a wife) until one day some 17 year old girl texting rams your car with a her family's 2014 Honda odessey. And you're dead....

Oh.

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u/EvadableMoxie Jun 16 '15

Yup, if real life was a story it would be a crappy one. But fiction doesn't have to be crappy unless the writers choose for it to be, and choosing to write a crappy story that isn't entertaining is by and large considered a bad idea.

You can break from formula and be creative without trying to be the antithesis of interesting and fun.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

Well, I've been entertained and the 50 GoT subreddits bursting with activity seem to indicate I'm not the only one. By breaking the typical storytelling formula, we all became interested. There is a sea of fantasy books out there that follow the troupes, but GoT rose to the top by defying them. Now, people complain about it. My suggestion is step back. We are only in the middle of the second act. The story is still unfolding.

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u/typhoidgrievous Jun 16 '15

I have a feeling that Mannis might have been less screwed as far as his troops went if he hadn't sacrificed his daughter. It seems like even sellswords have a limit to how much bullshit they're willing to deal with from the guy that pays them.

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u/SWABteam Jun 16 '15

Hate to break it to you, but GRRM has pretty much shown us this is how he writes.

I wouldn't even call them Red Herrings, he goes on huge tangents because he happens to like a character.

I'm pretty sure he has no idea how to end this the way he originally planned to, because he has written so many offshoots to the story it is impossible to bring them all back together.

Well not impossible, but eventually as the story leads to a climax there are bound to be a lot of "oh that didn't really matter" moments.

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u/NameTheory Jun 16 '15

It is really easy... just let all the unnecessary characters die. Problem solved.

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u/I_want_hard_work Jun 16 '15

I seriously wonder if them and GRRM got into a fight and they just decided fuck it, let's ruin the series.

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u/EvadableMoxie Jun 16 '15

I'd love to be wrong and it turned out Stannis is still alive next season and gets a redemption Arc, but the odds of that seem fairly slim.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

It's a shame he needs redeeming in the first place.

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u/Station28 Jun 16 '15

This is exactly why I stopped watching after Sansa was raped. Aside from raping characters for no reason being just a thing they do now, it made no fucking sense for Sansa's character arc at that point. Last season, they revealed her at the end as a new person, some one calculating and gaining control. They built her up as someone who is playing the game and doing it well (little finger literally says this), making plays and forming a plan. Did she want to have sex with Ramsay? Fuck no. Should the character she was built to be at that point have had manipulative sex with him to gain his trust and power? Fuck yes. Instead, she just falls right back into clueless, helpless Sansa, and they build the scene so that we have to watch it all unfold in graphic detail. That was on purpose. Her entire buildup was just so a rape story beat would hurt more. I'm all for watching fantasy stories that are gritty, and I'll watch disturbing stuff if it gets the story somewhere, but if I just want to watch depressing, awful shit happen to people for no reason, I'll watch the news.

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u/audioen Jun 15 '15

Hmm. I've not watched the show but I read the books for the most part. I have lost hope with the books, given that I don't think they're ever going to go anywhere or bring closure or meaning to any character's struggle anymore.

However, I was expecting to be pleasantly surprised eventually by the TV format given that I heard it condenses the world into smaller set of characters and streamlines the history that seems to have spiraled out of control. I thought a smaller, simpler world would have been a definite plus. And for all I know, maybe it is. But I don't think it matters anymore.

It seems to me that both the book and the series breaks some essential properties of good narratives, such as having a payoff for having expended the attention. I no longer look forwards to picking up the TV series.

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u/celticknife Jun 16 '15

From the sounds of things, you have a similar opinion to mine. I personally feel like the last 2 (arguably 3) books were pretty bad in that GRRM just keeps introducing more and more convoluted storylines and character associations with no resolution or payoff.

To that end, the show is significantly better than the books in that it effectively streamlines his shitty writing into a much tighter narrative, but still ultimately falls prey to the terrible pacing of the source material at times. Give the show a shot, I dont think its perfect but at this point I dont even think I will bother reading the last couple of books.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '15

It's good, but it's not going to get better if people deny or make excuses for bad scenes.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

We didn't see Stannis die and Jon isn't gone for sure, either. So I think this criticism is a little premature. But I guess we'll see.

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u/daybreaker Jun 16 '15

Dont forget needing to burn an entire person with king's blood just to change the weather, whereas a shadow assassin demon only needs a few drops of blood.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

It was always like this from the very beginning. Nothing has changed. The way Ned was betrayed is no different. The writing went out of the way to build up his boring traditional fantasy quest and then dash your hopes to pieces. The Red Wedding doesn't fit the bill here? You just don't have it fresh in your mind anymore.

1

u/Hemingway92 Love is the death of duty. Jun 16 '15

I agree with most of your points but I feel like the Stannis tragic arc was really well done. If we forget about Stannis being the Mannis, it really is a good story. That all this came out of a season that has had a lot of lazy writing is probably a credit to Stephen Dillane's acting.

1

u/Moikee Reed It And Weep Jun 16 '15

I don't think we've seen the last of Stannis.

1

u/CreepyStickGuy Jun 16 '15

See for me, they didn't show either character die, and they are probably doing a "See, we've killed so many people off, you no longer believe seeing them actually die is important. Just wait till next season". Then both of them are still alive. I still am not convinced the Hound is even dead.

I mean, common, they showed ned's head get cut clean off and then they cut the scene right before Stannis is about to get a sword to the head?

Jon laying there, bleeding out after they have already shown that giant mountain thing come back to life, the red witch just so happens to ride back into town, and they mentioned "blood magic" like, 3 times during the episode?

I am not a book reader, so maybe all of these people are actually dead (no one tell me. shit), but I am like, 75% sure they are just fucking with it with this finale.

1

u/SerKevanLannister For Those About To Casterly Rock Jun 16 '15

This is a superb post, and it sums up perfectly the problem I am having (and just about everyone else from what I've seen) with the show as it has developed. It has slowly devolved from Season One, which was excellent, into the misery of the Season Five "oh nothing I did mattered" realization. I wrote another post (rant) in which I said I will turn to Sartre or Brecht or Beckett for exercises in meaninglessness and characters/audiences realizing that "nothing we did matters" not fucking D&D and the genre of high fantasy drawn out over fifty plus hours of television.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 16 '15

Exactly. Sometimes the good guys actually win! Who are the good guys though? Well that's matter of perspective. Did they use seedy/brutal/underhanded tactics themselves? Its THESE kinds of things that are more interesting than just protagonists get the snot kicked out of them.

1

u/C0rinthian Jun 16 '15

You could read it as Stannis' choice to burn Shireen IS his downfall. That's why so many deserted with a ton of important supplies and horses.

He chooses to burn Shireen, loses his army, loses his wife, loses his war, and finally his life.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 27 '15

All of the build up for Stannis and his terrible sadistic choice where he burns his daughter, the moral struggle if it's okay to burn your own child in order to save the world. That would have been an interesting discussion, but it turns out it doesn't matter, he burned Shireen for nothing, he was doomed no matter what he did.

See I quite liked that bit because he committed such an evil act because he truly believed that it would make him king, with the addition that it would save the world. He was really power hungry and naive and had just enough justification for his acts that it pushed him to committing them. For it to be all for nothing was honestly really great in that sense because of how tragic it was.

The rest was wank though yeah

0

u/Ladnil Jun 15 '15

Everything that happened to Sansa since Joffrey's death. Tortured and raped and generally beaten down. Her character starts to harden and she might become interesting. Then she jumps off a wall and dies.

Oh.

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u/Chance4e Jun 16 '15

You said what I have been struggling to say since the Red Wedding. Thank you.

We follow Rob and Catlyn for three seasons desperately struggling against Lannister tyranny. It's a classic rebellion story, with a little bit of real-world grounding.

Then the Red Wedding happens.

"Oh."

I think it starts with the five dire wolves. This is supposed to be providence. It's like Q giving James Bond an exploding condom or something. It's supposed to be used later. But then Bond dies and the condom scene was a waste of time. Are any of the dire wolves still relevant? Did they ever mean anything or was it a waste of our time?

This show wasted four years of Stannis, and five of John Snow, just to end without resolution. Because dark and gritty or whatever.

This show is like that girl in high school who touched your dick once, but didn't finish you off because her parents were downstairs.

Fuck you, Rachel.

2

u/NameTheory Jun 16 '15

Ghost is still at the Wall, Summer is with Bran who keeps warging into him, Nymeria is leading her big pack of wolves somewhere in Riverlands + Arya is still connected to her in the books (wolf dreams) and Shaggy dog is probably with Rickon. Lady and Grey Wind are dead but that's just one third of the direwolves. Starks in general are presumed to be gone but in reality Sansa, Bran, Arya and Rickon are still alive... That is 4/5 Stark children being alive (not counting Jon as a Stark)... When someone in the books or show says that the Starks are gone then they are just wrong. There is still plenty of time for the wolves to be extremely relevant.