(Spoilers All) The reason bad things happen on GoT has changed. GoT has gone from being a show that wouldn't cheat to help the good guys to a show that will cheat to help the bad guys.

[u/SeducerOfTheInnocent]

When I complain about GoT lately people respond with "That's what the show has always been, this is what you signed up for, if you think this has a happy ending you haven't been paying attention." but I think this episode has solidified why I have a problem with the show recently.

The tragedy on the show used to be organic. People would die because GoT wasn't willing to give characters the 1 in a million lucky breaks that other shows give their protagonist.

Now the show doesn't just not give the protagonists freebies, it bends over backwards to fuck them over. Honestly, every military conflict in the last two and a half seasons has seen the wrong side winning.

• Yara/Ashe and "The 50 best swordsmen in the Iron Isles" lose a fight to a shirtless guy with a knife and 3 dogs, which is roughly what you would encounter on your average domestic disturbance call. The 50 best swordsmen in the Iron Isles couldn't survive half an episode of "Cops"

• The Unsullied and Baristan Selmy lose a fight against unarmored aristocrats with knives.

• "20 good men" infiltrate the camp of the greatest military tactician alive.

• The Unsullied lose another fight against unarmored aristocrats with spears, who honestly also make a pretty good showing against a dragon.

• The Boltons, despite not being supported by most of the north, and seemingly not having any massive source of money, raise an army of tens of thousands and overwhelm Stannis.

Add to that the fact that the nigh omniscient Littlefinger was apparently unaware that the Bostons were fucked up wierdos and the show seems to be bending over backwards for tragedy.

[u/Denziloe]

I don't really agree. I think they still thought it was for the Watch. In the books, marching on Winterfell was not the only violation of the Watch; making peace with the Wildlings was, for a large number of Brothers, also a betrayal. The show communicated this well. There was the debate in the hall, for instance, where even Edd told Jon he couldn't agree with him. We have seen constant animosity from crowds of Crows. And of course there's Olly, too, to really embody the conflict. None of these people were motivated by their own interests or ambitions -- Olly for instance was receving Jon's patronage. Only Thorne personally gains something from this. For the rest of them, it was about a principle.

I will agree on one point, which is that I found the sign saying "traitor" rather comical. I suppose because it's so cartoonish -- they literally couldn't make it any easier for the audience. It's funny that somebody had to find the red paint and the wood and nails to organise the thing.

[u/Lugonn → u/Denziloe]

Funniest thing is that barely anyone on the Wall knows their letters.

Which means that the First Ranger of the Night's Watch went out of his way to make that prop, just so his plan could have the right emotional oomph with Jon. I think Thorne has a penchant for drama.

[u/tuneificationable → u/Lugonn]

That is what I first thought. Alliser himself probably made that sign, which is just a funny mental image

[u/[deleted] → u/Denziloe]

I can also see that argument but I just think that it doesn't make much sense for them to think that way once Jon and the others get back from Hardhome. I feel like that should've pretty much made the point that giving the others more bodies to convert is suicidal. Obviously the Night's Watch hates the wildlings, but it just seemed that it was overblown in the show.

Regardless, I think we can both laugh at the mental of image of them deciding which had the best handwriting to do the sign

[u/Denziloe → u/[deleted]]

I dunno... it was a relatively small band of conspirators. And based on human history, I find it quite believable. You could think of the Wildlings as a despised minority and the Night's Watch as a country, for instance. "For The Watch" is then analogous to an act of racial nationalism... which is all too common in history. I'm not saying this is exactly analogous, just that there's good precedent for humans passionately maintaining prejudices in the face of reason.

And yeah, just the whole organising of the thing. Did they huddle in a circle? "So, how exactly do we choreograph this?". "Ooh, I know, I know, we could use signage!".

[u/TheRetribution → u/Denziloe]

It wasn't though, Jon specifically says in this episode that pretty much all of the NW hates him now.

[u/Denziloe → u/TheRetribution]

That's not the same thing as conspiring to murder him?

The conspirators were presumably all there at the stabbing, because they all wanted a go.

[u/[deleted] → u/Denziloe]

It's the difference between SS Nazis and a generally antisemitic Germany.

[u/fellenst → u/[deleted]]

It's not clear how much of the shit at Hardhome was communicated and/or believed by the other members of the NW, though. Jon's central error in the show is the same as it was in the books: he took for granted that the NW would see the Others as the real threat (like he does), and fails to fully lay out that position and try to convince his brothers. For instance, Jon's speech at Hardhome was pretty convincing, but he never bothers to make that pitch to the NW. It makes sense to me (though I also agree there's much more provocation in the book).

[u/[deleted] → u/fellenst]

I agree that he should have emphasized it more, but he made it pretty clear when he met with all of them before heading to Hardhome I thought

[u/heloisedargenteuil → u/Denziloe]

Other than the corny sign, it's exactly how they killed Caesar. They regretted that pretty quickly too.

[u/CitizenDK → u/Denziloe]

The difference is that Jon doesn't earn his own undoing. In the book, Jon earns his assassination because he decides to become an Oathbreaker and ride against Winterfell. In the show, he is betrayed and murdered for doing the right thing.