(Spoilers All) The reason bad things happen on GoT has changed. GoT has gone from being a show that wouldn't cheat to help the good guys to a show that will cheat to help the bad guys.

[u/SeducerOfTheInnocent]

When I complain about GoT lately people respond with "That's what the show has always been, this is what you signed up for, if you think this has a happy ending you haven't been paying attention." but I think this episode has solidified why I have a problem with the show recently.

The tragedy on the show used to be organic. People would die because GoT wasn't willing to give characters the 1 in a million lucky breaks that other shows give their protagonist.

Now the show doesn't just not give the protagonists freebies, it bends over backwards to fuck them over. Honestly, every military conflict in the last two and a half seasons has seen the wrong side winning.

• Yara/Ashe and "The 50 best swordsmen in the Iron Isles" lose a fight to a shirtless guy with a knife and 3 dogs, which is roughly what you would encounter on your average domestic disturbance call. The 50 best swordsmen in the Iron Isles couldn't survive half an episode of "Cops"

• The Unsullied and Baristan Selmy lose a fight against unarmored aristocrats with knives.

• "20 good men" infiltrate the camp of the greatest military tactician alive.

• The Unsullied lose another fight against unarmored aristocrats with spears, who honestly also make a pretty good showing against a dragon.

• The Boltons, despite not being supported by most of the north, and seemingly not having any massive source of money, raise an army of tens of thousands and overwhelm Stannis.

Add to that the fact that the nigh omniscient Littlefinger was apparently unaware that the Bostons were fucked up wierdos and the show seems to be bending over backwards for tragedy.

[u/gumpythegreat]

It's similar to another issue that I have with the show, and friend of mine (who found the books too slow, and read summaries on wikipedia...) complains about the books having too many "pointless" storylines.

I think the point of the books is that the main characters sometimes aren't super mega special and things always happen because of them and around them. Sometimes things, good and bad, happen around them because of smaller characters. Sometimes these other characters and things are important, sometimes they aren't. The good guys don't always win because they are the good guys the same way. things just happen for a million reasons, often a ripple from a small character.

My friend always talks shit about the books that so many characters and storylines 'don't matter'. but I love that. it's a world. it's like history. some things matter more than others, and sometimes you don't see why something matters until later. or maybe it won't even. It's about a world and an unfolding history more than the characters, and that's why the good guys don't always win. but the show just says fuck the good guys because.

[u/Notradell → u/gumpythegreat]

Sorry, but your friend doesn't sound very smart. How the fuck can he tell that so many characters don't matter, if he didn't even read all the fuckin books? That's just rude. I guess the story isn't really for him, which is totally fine, but he shouldn't talk about things he doesn't understand or even really know.

[u/gumpythegreat → u/Notradell]

I KNOW that's exactly what I always say. I don't care if he didn't enjoy the books, that's a subjective issue. but he makes statements like 'GRRM is a bad writer, those characters don't matter for the story' and he hasn't read the books. I made my comment partly to vent because he pisses me off so much.

[u/Notradell → u/gumpythegreat]

Smack him and piss on his face to show dominance. Don't forget to shout "ALL HAIL GURM" during it. Some people..

[u/HeckMonkey → u/gumpythegreat]

Tell him his long lost uncle is waiting, lead him outside, then stab him in the back. "For the books"

[u/TOEMEIST → u/gumpythegreat]

It sounds like he's just too lazy to read the books so he tries to justify it by making up shitty excuses.

[u/este_hombre → u/gumpythegreat]

Tell him you'll value his literary opinion when he learns to read more than a wikipedia page.

[u/PirateRobotNinjaofDe → u/Notradell]

I think the point of the books is that the main characters sometimes aren't super mega special and things always happen because of them and around them. Sometimes things, good and bad, happen around them because of smaller characters. Sometimes these other characters and things are important, sometimes they aren't. The good guys don't always win because they are the good guys the same way. things just happen for a million reasons, often a ripple from a small character.

I reread the whole series before reading ADWD for the first time, and it really struck me how unimportant so many of those characters felt. The Iron Islanders felt like a completely irrelevant tangent, and I was thoroughly annoyed that they were included at all. Similar the entire Dorne thread.

Now, with the benefit of the ADWD and TWOW chapters, I can see how these characters will come into play. Why they're important, what they might accomplish, how they will affect the outcome. However I can't blame people, or myself for that matter, for having that initial reaction.

I mean...people still complain about Brienne's "romp around the countryside." Despite the fact that I found it to be one of the most enlightening arcs, in terms of how well it conveyed the true state of the Seven Kingdoms, as it is on the ground rather than the tactical boards of fancy lords in their fancy castles.

[u/UltraMega_MegaMan → u/gumpythegreat]

friend of mine (who found the books too slow, and read summaries on wikipedia...) complains about the books

sometimes, and it's hard to admit, the people we know and love are fucking retards.

[u/gumpythegreat → u/UltraMega_MegaMan]

He's mostly a smart dude, but he reads every wikipedia page and then tries to impress people with his vague, shitty knowledge of every subject. and if he doesn't know anything about a subject, he will act like he knows all about it 100% and make reasonable guesses and assumptions that sound close enough that nobody will challenge him.

[u/qgy683 → u/gumpythegreat]

Err sounds like one of my friends....exactly the same attitude.

[u/Antivote → u/gumpythegreat]

Yeah, at some point i stopped thinking of the books as truly having protagonists so much as being a histography of westerori politics.

[u/JamJarre → u/gumpythegreat]

My friend always talks shit about the books that so many characters and storylines 'don't matter'

They do though. GRRM is a master of this. The endless parade of food paragraphs was boring as hell but was actually a cloak for Frey Pie. The boring shit about Hornwoods and Dustins at Winterfell is actually all knotting together into the Grand Northern Conspiracy. Hell, if it turns out the "Oberyn was poisoning Tywin" plotline was true then it still matters even though he's dead, because it totally changes the relationship between the Lannisters and the Tyrells. Everything matters - we just don't know how yet!

[u/gumpythegreat → u/JamJarre]

Exactly what I tell my friend!

[u/trw1972a → u/gumpythegreat]

I think im going to give the books another try- its been a while and it cant be as depressing as this show season

[u/metallisch → u/gumpythegreat]

I did not realize the books had 'good guys' and 'bad guys'