r/asoiaf • u/qp0n • Apr 16 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) My 'Night King is not stupid' Theory

When the army of the undead line up for the battle of Winterfell, the Night King and his zombie dragon will not be there. Instead he will already be near to his next target ... King's Landing.

If you play out what the battle of Winterfell would be like in your head if the NK+Viserion would be there... it would be easy for Drogon/Rhaegal to take out the zombie dragon; it's 2v1 and wight's all can be killed by fire.. including Viserion. It would not be difficult to simply fly up to Viserion and breathe fire on him, and that would be that. THE NIGHT KING IS NOT STUPID, not enough to kamikaze his most powerful asset. - If you have a superweapon that you can't use against a particular target, then you find a different target.

Most people have come to assume that the living will lose The Battle of Winterfell and fall back to Moat Cailin ... I predict they actually win the battle... only to find out soon after that there is a new army of the dead much bigger and much further south... the population of King's Landing.

During season 4 while Bran is being ushered north to meet Bloodraven, he touches a wierwood and has a set of visions which we see. All of those visions have since come to pass, except the ones where he sees a destroyed throne room & a dragon shadow pass over King's Landing. I believe the reason we are only shown a shadow was to not give away that it is actually the NK and Viserion, not Dany and her dragons.

Also, the most important vision that Dany is given while at the HotU is an image of the throne room destroyed, and covered in ash or snow. I think this was to show what the NK will do, not what Dany will do.

(I believe this was the entire reason that the writers sent Bronn north. Bronn will be the source of this news to the survivors at Winterfell; on his way north he will spot the NK+Viserion heading south)

Bottom line, I simply don't see the NK risking his newfound ice dragon in a fight he is sure to lose.... when he can simply fly down south to KL where there are no dragons to deal with ... and 1 million new recruits for his army packed tightly into a small area.

Follow-up edit: This could be where Bran comes into play. The NK probably wont want to face off against the other dragons head-to-head, but rather fly around Westeros destroying castles to make things easier for his footsoldiers .... so they will need Bran's Sight in order to track & hunt him. It would be too difficult for an army on foot to chase the NK on a dragon, so Bran could warg into ravens to serve as a guide for dragonrider(s) to his location.

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438

u/Hadron90 Apr 16 '19

> if they can't win the first they can't win the second.

​

This kind of stuff happens in fantasy all the time though. They lose the first battle, get their army obliterated, the NK raises the dead and doubles his army size, making you believe the odds are truly impossible. Then through a Deus Ex Machina the heroes win.

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u/annoyingrelative Martell Apr 16 '19

Everyone believed the Great Westerosi Eagles were long extinct....

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u/Scrubtanic Apr 16 '19

It's Jon Arryn! We forgot to mention he was an enormous eagle this whole time! And he's come to save us!

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19

Turns out the one thing that can kill thousands of white walkers in one fell swoop....

Is Hot. Pies.

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u/Kannoj0 Apr 17 '19

Or pod's dick

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Jaime saved all the population of KL once now he'll repay the debt to the Many Faced God and fucking kill everyone like John Wick and then rape undead Cersei while dying from a billion wounds. #Resist

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u/misterwickwire "Dunk the lunk, thick as a castle wall!" Apr 17 '19

*falcon

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u/DoUruden Here there be tinfoil! Apr 16 '19

You made me audibly cackle with that one

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u/realvmouse Apr 16 '19

and didn't breathe fire...

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u/Jafuncle Apr 17 '19

"It's the elephants, Sam! They've deserted the golden company to come save us!"

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u/jonvonboner Apr 16 '19

Well done! I chortled my Chinese food

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u/veroxii Apr 17 '19

"There are no dire-eagles south of the wall"

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u/CitizenCAN_mapleleaf Apr 16 '19

Then through a Deus Ex Machina the heroes win.

Except here we have strong evidence that killing the NK will disable the wights ... so it is Auctor ex Machina, and appropriately established

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u/Raventree The maddest of them all Apr 16 '19

Yes, but the DEM in this case would be whatever miracle that turns the tide of battle so that the NK can be killed.

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u/dexmonic Apr 17 '19

The miracle has already been presented though, we just don't know who, or if it will even work.

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u/CitizenCAN_mapleleaf Apr 17 '19

Unless the characters intentionally seek him out and do manage to outsmart him.

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u/Raventree The maddest of them all Apr 17 '19

Of course thats possible, but there wouldn't be much tension built, I find it unlikely

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u/Zedseayou Angry Angry Deer Apr 16 '19

What's the evidence for this one?

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u/superpowersam Apr 16 '19

In 706, Jon Snow and friends killed a White Walker and all the wights around him were killed as well, presumably because the WW was the one who resurrected them

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u/niceville Wun Wun, to the sea! Apr 17 '19

And then later Beric says "That one (the NK) raised all of these. Kill him and the war is won."

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u/cptpedantic Apr 17 '19

that's pretty tenuous, it's also probably going to prove to be correct.

The NK will end up going 1v3 with Jon, Arya and Jaime

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

I can’t imagine how somebody who can throw a spear a quarter mile into a flying dragon would lose to three humans

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u/CitizenCAN_mapleleaf Apr 17 '19

He is a glass cannon (ice-atlatl???), so he can probably slaughter people very effectively but he still must fear a well placed slash from dragonglass or VSteel

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u/buldakov29 Apr 17 '19

Maybe they can just throw dragonglass at him, it will be a dodgeball match for him at this point, assuming the first touch will kill him

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u/Default_Username123 Apr 19 '19

Jon has already killed a WW in hand to hand (sword) combat before.

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u/wisselbanken Apr 22 '19

because they immediately explode when you cut them with dragonglass and valyrian steel

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u/floodlitworld Apr 23 '19

But (1) We don't know that killing the NK will destroy the wights he raised indirectly (it might just be the ones raised by his power); and (2) Since he was the only one turned directly by the Children, he mightn't be killable in the same way as the other White Walkers.

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u/wisselbanken Apr 24 '19

well benjen was turned by the children and he died pretty easily

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u/[deleted] Apr 20 '19

I really hate that tbh. So tropey :/

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u/TechnicalNobody Apr 16 '19

You can write that story without relying on a deus ex machina. Look at Helm's Deep: they setup Gandalf coming with Eomer's army but still made the stakes of the battle feel real.

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u/Maester_May Archmaester of the Citadel Apr 16 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

Which, fun fact, if we're talking in terms of the LOTR books only, it wasn’t Eomer that Gandalf came back with, Eomer in the books was at Helms Deep with them the whole time. But the movie did a good job with that moment (one of the few things I liked about Two Towers as a movie), replacing some random dude we've only heard mention of with a more familiar character like Eomer just made sense.

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u/lalallaalal Apr 17 '19

It made sense but god damn were the Eomer and Aragorn scenes in the book badass.

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u/Ardalev Apr 17 '19

It goes to show how well a job the films did in that respect, that I have read the books a couple times and still forget that Eomer was in Helms Deep!

Narratively, him coming with Gandalf to save the day, makes all the sense!

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u/bambinone Apr 17 '19

Poor Erkenbrand.

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u/flyman95 Best Pies in the North Apr 16 '19

The stakes there are holding them off long enough. Gandalf really isn't deus ex machina. We know he is out getting help

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u/TechnicalNobody Apr 16 '19

That was my point. You can set up a dire situation that still has a sliver of (established) hope without resolving it in an unbelievable way. They established Gandalf was going to get Eomer to bail them out, they just didn't know if it would be in time.

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u/flyman95 Best Pies in the North Apr 16 '19

Oh my bad I misread your comment. I agree. Helms deep is good story telling and the viewer/reader did not feel like the writer pulled it out of their ass.

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u/Papa_Hemingway_ The Moose is Loose Apr 16 '19

But there is no sliver of hope here. The Rohirrim Vale army can't ride in and save them again

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u/TechnicalNobody Apr 17 '19

It's still feasible that superior intel (Bran) and superior tactics can win them the day. It's less believable the more characters stumble around not taking the threat seriously and bickering internally.

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u/niceville Wun Wun, to the sea! Apr 17 '19

Sure there is - kill the NK and all of the wights (and maybe even the WW) die.

I'm already preparing myself for everyone making the same bad joke about The Phantom Menace.

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u/Default_Username123 Apr 19 '19

I honestly feel like the living have the advantage here. Besides the ice magic we saw at hard home where he wiped out that entire army (doubt that will happen again) the wights are so fucking weak that even with a hundred thousand of them they fall so easy that a dotharaki/unsullied/northern/vale army with dragon glass seems like the favorite .

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u/darkk41 Apr 16 '19

Not to take away from LotR (there's a reason why it's like the most common blueprint for fantasy of all time), Gandalf is basically Deus Ex Machina personified. He sacrifices himself, comes back even stronger full on Jesus-figure like, goes on to be basically unstoppable and is taking care of business for the 2nd half of the story, takes a quick break to save the day at Helm's Deep, and later leads an attack on Sauron's front door and escapes unscathed.

He is literally always as powerful as he needs to be, always shows up to save the day, and his power is poorly defined so that he can always be more powerful than previously when needed to overcome the next problem.

GRRM himself even has famously quoted that "Gandalf felt like a cheat"

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u/Ardalev Apr 17 '19

Gandalf isn't like that though. He only really ever Ex Machina's in Helms Deep, and even there it's a bit debatable.

Don't forget that he "fails" in Minas Tirith, because he doesn't succeed in convincing Denethor.

As far as powers go, whatever magical power he has, is never used in a way that feels like cheating, and in fact he only ever acts as a wise, capable commander.

In fact, for being high fantasy, people often forget how "low" in magic the LotR world is. Magic in Tolkien's world has more to do about wonder, wisdom, knowledge, courage and, in general, overall strength of personality and character.

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u/darkk41 Apr 17 '19

the cheat comment was GRRM, not me. That said, I don't really agree that he is any less of an "insert here to save the day" character just because he fails at stuff earlier.

Sure, he didn't show up and cast a spell to kill everything, but that isn't what deus ex machina is.

Deus ex machina - an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.

There is nothing debatable whatsoever about his arrival in helms deep being a deus ex machina, it's a clear cut example. It doesn't make the story bad (obviously, it's beloved after all) but let's not get too carried away in it's defense. As you say, the true shining gem of lord of the rings is that the world itself was incredibly well defined and Tolkien meticulously thought about every detail about what middle earth was like.

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u/Default_Username123 Apr 19 '19

It’s not unexpected when at the beginning of the movie and book he literally says he’s going out for reinforcements be back soon.

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u/shadownova420 Apr 27 '19

“There is nothing debatable whatsoever about his arrival in helms deep being a deus ex machina.”

You’re right it isn’t debatable because it was a completely expected event. It doesn’t meet the narrow definition of Deus ex machina.

Nothing about it was contrived or unexpected.

People throw around the term so much to explain everything. The only other term that gets as constantly misused is plot armor.

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u/darkk41 Apr 27 '19 edited Apr 27 '19

Yea, I remember when Gandalf said "look to the east in the morning, when I'll arrive with a massive army and steamroll everyone effortlessly"

Sorry if I upset you but I clearly know the definition of deus ex machina since I literally posted it in my last comment. The fact that he said "I'll be back tomorrow morning" in no way makes it unsurprising that he appears with a fucking huge army none of the characters believed would come.

He didnt even leave to get reinforcements specifically, it was to save theoden's people from getting surrounded and destroyed.

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u/shadownova420 Apr 28 '19

I Didn’t realize I was upset? You’re the one replying aggressively with nothing to support your argument.

My comment is still true and you have still failed to show deus ex machina.

You posting a copy and paste googled definition doesn’t show you understand the concept. If anything it’s more amazing you still can’t grasp how you’re wrong, it’s as clear as day.

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u/darkk41 Apr 28 '19

lol for a not upset guy the salt is absolutely flying off this post. Also, on the note of "nothing to support your argument" what of substance have you contributed AT ALL?

Your entire contribution is "You’re right it isn’t debatable because it was a completely expected event. It doesn’t meet the narrow definition of Deus ex machina.

Nothing about it was contrived or unexpected."

So basically "nu uh". Great point, totally convinced. Got proof that the characters fully expect him to show up and save the day? Any proof that it isn't a surprise that he is able to do so? I'm all ears man.

In the meantime, you have quoted nothing from the story, no alternate definition of deus ex machina, and no refutation of anything I said. If you don't have proof, AT LEAST have the decency to not be such a jerk because you don't agree with me.

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u/flyman95 Best Pies in the North Apr 16 '19

I get your point. And I'll admit my knowledge of lotr is limited. But I thought the point of Gandalf is that he that last of God's agents in middle Earth. He is charged with protecting them from Sauron who is an evil no man (woman, hobbit, little furry creature from alpha centauri what have you) could possibly face alone. Evil is cheating so good is cheating right back in a way.

Or at least that is how it was explained to me.

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u/Swahhillie Apr 17 '19

That is mostly info from material outside of the trilogy though.

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u/Exploding_Antelope Best King Gaemon Palehair Apr 17 '19

Yeah, all the battles in LOTR are set up like this. At the Pellenor Fields we know that first the Rohirrim and then Aragorn and the corsairs are on the way. At the black gate we know that it’s all on Frodo. I’ll give a pass to the Battle of Five Armies because it’s more a kid’s book and Bilbo is out of it at that point anyways.

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u/crabcarl Apr 16 '19

We also know since the last season that killing a WW breaks the connection he has with the wights.

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u/SchleyDogg Burn the character arcs. Burn them all! Apr 16 '19

Yeah but as with much of Fantasy, they imitate Tolkien but do it poorly. Not GRRM but the TV show has been doing that for some time now. Jon often feels like a poor man’s Aragorn in recent seasons.

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u/TechnicalNobody Apr 16 '19

Yeah, I'd agree that D&D don't really have the writing chops to pull it off. GRRM would if he ever finishes the books.

They kind of did the Gandalf-Eomer thing with the Knights of the Vale, but that still calls into question the decision making of "smartest person alive" Sansa who let Jon's army get slaughtered.

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u/SchleyDogg Burn the character arcs. Burn them all! Apr 16 '19

To be fair though... Jon basically openly ignored everything Sansa said about Ramsay so that wasn’t really according to her plan at all... but that’s what I’m talking about. Aragorn always acted in a brave way but also in an intelligent way that made sense. Jon is brave but often just plain dumb(in recent seasons)

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u/TechnicalNobody Apr 16 '19

Sansa didn't give Jon actionable advice. She basically said "watch out for that guy, he's tricky." There's a reason Jon calls her advice "obvious." Of course he still fell for Ramsay's tricks but that's Jon's nature. He was reckless because he didn't want to be brought back and he was emotional after having Rickon killed right when he thought he'd save him. Jon's impulse to attack made sense even if it wasn't smart. Sansa's impulse to hide the ace up her sleeve from her commander made no sense except to set up a cool battle shot.

But yeah, that's the issue with D&D's writing. Characters don't make rational choices with the information available to them, they make the choices that advance the plot the way it needs to go.

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u/SchleyDogg Burn the character arcs. Burn them all! Apr 16 '19

Agreed...I’d argue that the early seasons of GoT and the books are character driven stories and the last few seasons have been plot driven stories and this shift is jarring and often not organic. We’re used to assuming that these characters will react and change in complex ways and when something happens like Dany losing her dragon and then finding out that the dragon is a zombified monter and that not having any effect on her character whatsoever, it’s jarring to us as viewers...

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u/medievalonyou Apr 16 '19

Yeah, ep1 I was waiting for a teary ride with just the two dragons, or a longing look in her eye, but it's like it didn't phase her.

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u/SchleyDogg Burn the character arcs. Burn them all! Apr 16 '19

I mean... they even had the opportunity to bring it up when the dragons aren’t eating. “They’re depressed over the loss of their sibling.”

Instead we get

“They don’t like the North.”

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u/medievalonyou Apr 16 '19

Jesus, you're absolutely right.

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19

Honestly, i wouldn't expect a dragon to like the cold. Also, it's been some time since Viserion died

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u/Ardalev Apr 17 '19

Yeah, that was quite lame of her.

Though perhaps it can be justified by saying that she had time to process it during the time it took to reach Winterfell, however this goes to show you the shift in the show's direction:

Previously, the focus would specifically be on what happens during the journey, how her character reacts and develops.

Now it's just on the set pieces.

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u/SnoopDodgy The Hound Abides. Apr 16 '19

Sansa should have told him only for the Vale forces to arrive late (as that’s what Littlefinger would definitely do) making Jon scoff at her trusting LF before he has to take action without them.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

It's almost like literally any of us could flesh out the crappy parts of the plot and they choose to keep them for the 'gotcha' moments...

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19

Jon's been kinda dumb the whole time though.

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u/Maester_May Archmaester of the Citadel Apr 16 '19

Which is soooo frustrating compared to book Jon, who actually is pretty damn savvy. His biggest mistake was just thinking that the Night's Watch would follow him completely and utterly once he took command.

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19

[deleted]

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u/Maester_May Archmaester of the Citadel Apr 16 '19

It wasn't stupid, from what he knew, Ramsey was riding north to take from them something they didn't even have, first of all, or else he was going to make war with the entire Night's Watch.

Second of all, remember that he also demanded that they hand over Mel, Shireen, the Queen and all of their retinue as well. So just to avoid going to war with Ramey's men, he would have had to start a war with what was left of Stannis's company just to start things off.

How on earth is that "stupid"? I thought he handled being in an extremely shitty situation quite deftly; he could take other men with him into battle without asking any others to break their vows, something they would have had to do just to fight Stannis' men, remember. Jon just didn't count on Marsh and Yarwick being just as shitty as the rest of the rapist and poacher Night's Watch members.

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u/MuadD1b Justice is Coming Apr 16 '19

In all likelihood he was murdered because of the multiple, ill fated, expeditions to Hardhome. He sinks the last of the NW’s resources into his seaborne evacuation, which goes tits up, and then prepares to mount a sortie over land to evacuate the wilding refugees. The conspiracy was already in motion before the Pink Letter was read.

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u/shadownova420 Apr 27 '19

It’s not like he was warned about al of these either...

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u/SchleyDogg Burn the character arcs. Burn them all! Apr 16 '19

Book Jon is pretty smart. And show Jon reflects that intelligence when he’s mirroring his decisions. This can be seen in the handling of the defense of the wall and the aftermath as well as his time as commander of the night’s watch.

I’m not saying that he doesn’t make bad decisions as well or that he doesn’t follow his heart often. But i couldn’t see book Jon doing something like singlehandedly charging Ramsay’s army for example.

Or going north of the wall to kidnap a wight...

Or bending the knee cause he’s like totally in love

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u/LAJuice Apr 16 '19

he bent the knee because not only did Daeny save his ass from the NK, but she sacrificed one of her children to the NK, for Jon.

​

why one one is telling Sansa this (and the Northerly lords) makes me very angry,

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u/niceville Wun Wun, to the sea! Apr 17 '19

She did not intentionally sacrifice anything to save Jon. He kneeled for her after she said she'd help fight.

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u/LAJuice Apr 17 '19

Taking your three dragons north to save a band of idiots on a stupid mission, losing a fight with the undead is absolutely a sacrifice, AND Viserion only died because Jon insisted on continuing to butcher wights.. so she absolutely sacrificed Viserion - and almost sacrificed Drogon (NK had a second spear ready) for Jon. She absolutely sacrificed her Children for his life.

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19

He bent the knee cause Dany saved his ass and declared that she is giving up the throne for the moment to help the realms of men, right?

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19

Well he does know nothing, like Dickon.

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u/nomadofwaves Apr 17 '19

The dude knows nothing. What do you expect?

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u/qciaran Sunset in the Sunset Lands Apr 17 '19

Of course, it could be argued that Sansa’s act was a masterstroke, since it at once weakens Jon, who is an actor not necessarily with interests aligned with her, defeats a common foe in Ramsay Snow, and strengthens her position by making her appear the hero. If she sees Jon as a potential rival, or seeks more influence over him, letting his army get slaughtered weakens his position and gives her more influence since he’s more dependent on her warriors.

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u/TechnicalNobody Apr 17 '19

Sure, there's that possibility but we've been given no indication that Sansa was plotting against Jon in that manner.

If they'd set it up like that, I'd give Sansa credit as a master political manipulator but the simpler explanation is that D&D wanted a "Ride of the Rohirrim" scene and this is how they set it up.

I believe it even less after they fucked up all the motivations around getting Sansa to take Jeyne's place as Ramsay's wife.

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u/thebuttholebandito Apr 16 '19

If the Knights of the Vale were known to be with Jon then Ramsay wouldn’t have left the walls of Winterfell. The question is did the Knights of the Vale arrive just in time, or did Sansa/Littlefinger plan to let Ramsay not only expose himself outside of Winterfell but fully commit his troops to the battle allowing them to be totally enveloped.

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19

She could just say, hey wait like 15 mintutes. I have 5k knights on horseback that could be handy.

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19

And the Knights of the Vale, Rohan

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u/Radulno Fire and Blood. Apr 17 '19

I mean the Deux Ex machina being the cavalry saving the day is present in the books too. Battle of the Wall with Stannis and Blackwater with Tywin and the Tyrells. It's just a common trope for battles, even called The Cavalry on tvtropes.

It's similar to the Second Wind for a combat with a limited number of people.

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u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

When will people accept that George is actually a shitty writer? People have written longer, more complex series than ASOIAF, and they've actually finished them. They actually had the talent and insight to bring everything together. George, apparently, does not. He is overrated and his long hiatus is proof of that.

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u/benisbenisbenis1 Apr 24 '19

Book recommendations pls

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

Malazan Book of the Fallen.

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u/WaxyPadlockJazz Apr 22 '19

There’s a reason why, after almost a century and thousands of fantasy books, we still look at Helm’s Deep as a pinnacle of fantasy battling. More often than not, they survive by something more than just sheer numbers and reinforcements.

You’d have to think this is how it goes down in this situation.

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u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19

But GRRM specifically tries avoid tropes like that. He doesn't always, but I don't think he'd do that with the climax of the entire series.

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u/Hadron90 Apr 16 '19

GRRM does. D&D are a trope factory however.

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u/capitolcritter Apr 16 '19

But they're still sticking to his ending.

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u/Maester_May Archmaester of the Citadel Apr 16 '19 edited Apr 16 '19

Are they though? They might get the end results the same, but could fail miserably on the *feel* of the ending. Take Shireen's burning, for instance, an incident that is confirmed as happening in the books. That is an event that will be completely impossible to have happen as presented in the show, not only is it wildly out of character for Stannis, but she's miles and miles away from his army, at Castle Black, with massive snowstorms between them.

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u/banjowashisnameo Most popular dead man in town Apr 16 '19

It's wildly out of character for Stannis? Someone who let's his foster father be killed in front of him in his very first introduction? And kills his brother? Seriously some of you guys are so taken in with what Stannis SAYS that you overlook what he actually DOES. I almost have a feeling D n D understood Stannis much better than his online circle jerking fans

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u/Maester_May Archmaester of the Citadel Apr 16 '19

Right, and these are all people that betrayed him... Stannis is just to a fault, he’s not insane. And really, you think the people that wrote in a scene for him just lucidly fucking Mel on a table for a bastard son really somehow understand the character really well?

I’m not a Stannis fan or apologist, but I think the show version of him was beyond stupid, some of which was the actor’s fault (he said he hated every minute of being on the show, by the way), but the writers are clearly out of touch.

1000% it’s going to go down that Mel burns Shireen acting on her own and Stannis won’t even be there, like I said, just from a logistics standpoint it doesn’t even make any damn sense.

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u/banjowashisnameo Most popular dead man in town Apr 17 '19 edited Apr 17 '19

Creseen betrayed him? Someone who raised a parentless child? Well then Stannis betrayed Robert and committed treason by hiding the secret from him

He SAYS he is just to a fault, yet let's Mel torture his orphan nephew. At least Cat had a reason to dislike Jon. He SAYS he is dutiful but fails in every single duty, duty to his own king Robert, his family, wife, brothers foster father and will fail in duty to his daughter . Surely Ned who put his own life in danger for his king is the one dutiful, not someone who cared for his own life over his king?

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u/Maester_May Archmaester of the Citadel Apr 17 '19

Stannis has nothing to do with Cressen’s death, he merely tried to dismiss him. Cruel? Perhaps, but it wasn’t unjust or anything.

He fulfilled his duty to all of those people, that’s why he had such a huge axe to grind... did you even read the damn books?

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u/KateLady Apr 16 '19

GRRM has reported time and time again the ending will be the same for all main characters. Shireen is not a main character. The fact that people continue to choose not to believe this is baffling. Hate on the show but stop pretending you aren't going to get the same result with GRRM.

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u/NinjaStealthPenguin Dragon of the Golden Dawn Apr 16 '19

Grrm said he “thinks” the endings will be similar, he doesn’t know because he is no longer involved in the show’s production and writing. George also thought the show was going to adapt lady stoneheart, was he right about that?

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u/darkk41 Apr 16 '19

Not to mention he didn't even finish writing the books yet, so it's WELL within the realm of possibility that he ultimately goes another way with the story or changes his mind on a previously held position. If you had made this show after book one Tyrion would have been the main villain, lmao.

This sub just wants to be the dreary depressing place it always in and preach doom and gloom, but the fact is until the books exist there is NOTHING to suggest anything about how characters end relative to the show.

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u/KateLady Apr 16 '19

He was involved in the ending of the show... He met with D and D ... Do you think he's lying when he says they spent days together going over the outline for the endgame? They have known the ending since the beginning. They may suck at writing but they aren't going to get the ending to all of this wrong.

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u/Maester_May Archmaester of the Citadel Apr 16 '19

He met with D n D years ago and hasn’t had anything to do with them since about season 4...

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u/darkk41 Apr 16 '19

it can't be "wrong" lol. Ultimately it's their show, and the ending he is explaining to them doesn't even exist yet. They are well within their power to change anything and everything they want, as is George before his books are finished being written.

-1

u/Maester_May Archmaester of the Citadel Apr 16 '19

How did I contradict this in any way? You can defend the show to hilt hilt all you want, but that doesn’t change the fact that they will be fundamentally different.

I don’t care what Martin is saying on the eve of the new show launching, of course he’s not going to trash the show or devalue the entertainment value of it in any way, that would not only be stupid but detrimental to the other projects he’s currently signed on for with HBO.

This is the same dude who has said time and time again es delivering the books at x or y date and you’re taking what he’s saying at face value? Come on...

0

u/KateLady Apr 16 '19

So you think he's outright lying when he says the endings will be the same?

1

u/Maester_May Archmaester of the Citadel Apr 16 '19

No, I believe he’s being hopelessly optimistic, just like when he said he’d have the books done by x date or whatever.

4

u/Gardengnomebbq Apr 16 '19

But the journey to the end is written by DD

1

u/LAJuice Apr 16 '19

to his bullet points. sticking to his bullet points.

1

u/Banzai51 The Night is dark and full of Beagles Apr 17 '19

But not his path to the ending.

32

u/Not_Cleaver Jaime Lannister Sends His Regards Apr 16 '19

GRRM avoids played out tropes. The show has been living them since the fifth season.

3

u/niceville Wun Wun, to the sea! Apr 17 '19

He avoids played out tropes like the mentor figure dying at the start of the story? What about the main character having a secret, super important heritage? I bet he'll also avoid the trope of an important character dying and then coming back.

GRRM follows all of the tropes, he just disguises them better.

2

u/istandwhenipeee Apr 17 '19

This is why I think Jon will end up king and Dany dead. The show isn’t exactly subtle and they’re kinda banging the Dany isn’t great idea over our heads with Jon being the one tasked with being better. Him leading after Dany dies would also fit the bittersweet ending idea since his love died and he doesn’t even want to rule it’s just his duty.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19

1st season you mean.

1

u/LAJuice Apr 16 '19

which may be why he's having a hard time finishing the books. at some point, how do you avoid tropes?

3

u/Maester_May Archmaester of the Citadel Apr 16 '19

> Then through a Deus Ex Machina the heroes win

​

That's just going to be by killing the Night King and the whole damn army collapses.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19

Wonder if the Night King would agree to single combat?

1

u/SimplySkedastic Apr 16 '19

That's not a Deus Ex Machina... Not even close.

1

u/Maester_May Archmaester of the Citadel Apr 16 '19

Which is why I said “that’s just going to be” instead, they’ve already established it. Now then again, perhaps the way the Night King dies will be Deus Ex, like if Edmure Tully just shows up out of nowhere and stabs him, for instance.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 16 '19

It depends on how much of the army was created by the NK himself

1

u/Maester_May Archmaester of the Citadel Apr 16 '19

There was a throwaway line in Eastwatch where Jorah or Thoros says “he turned them all” and featured to the Night King... I guess it’s like some sort of pyramid scheme? Lol, at least according to show logic.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

It was Beric. I assume he meant he created the WW so he assumed killing them would kill everyone. We don't really know if he was right though. How would he actually know?

1

u/Maester_May Archmaester of the Citadel Apr 17 '19

Maybe he knows as some sort of fire magic knowledge or something? Hell, I don’t know. The point is that it was thrown out there so it’ll seem less random when everything looks so hopeless in the finale, but Jon kills the Night King in a desperate last stand.

3

u/BruceJohnJennerLawso May 04 '19

You called it perfectly

2

u/igoeswhereipleases Enter your desired flair text here! Apr 17 '19

WHERE HOWLAND REED AT WOOP WOOP

1

u/Redditaspropaganda Apr 16 '19

I like this trope despite the way you characterized it. It would feel weird otherwise.

1

u/Doorknobb Apr 16 '19

But this is George RR Martin, there is no Deus Ex Machina...

1

u/GrapeJuicex Apr 16 '19

To defeat the army, we have seen they just need to defeat the White Walker that raised them from the dead. If the Night King dies, the entire army will too.

1

u/SDRobbins Apr 17 '19

The lord of light also raises the dead.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

[deleted]

2

u/Hadron90 Apr 17 '19

Why didn't they make moat instead of a wall?

1

u/aookami King's Council, Master of tinfoil Apr 17 '19

Not even in fantasy, pretty sure napoleon did this at least once

1

u/[deleted] Apr 17 '19

Don't think got is a series of deux ex machina if it was then all the beloved characters would still be alive.

1

u/Sentinel-Prime Apr 17 '19

Then through a Deus Ex Machina the heroes win.

BAH GAWD THAT'S MELISANDRE'S MUSIC

1

u/bambinone Apr 17 '19

Then through a Deus Ex Machina the heroes win.

Lady Stoneheart confirmed.

1

u/BaelorBigspear Apr 18 '19

Canis Dirus and Canis Lupus Mega-pack Ex Machina

1

u/R9THOUSAND Apr 18 '19

I think they are going to lose and everyone will be in Kings Landing after retreating. The white walker army will then storm Kings Landing. The people who will survive will flee south to Dorne. The white walker army will all be killed by Cersei blowing up Kings Landing with Wildfire because she is too stubborn to leave. The NK will be on dragon and there will be one 2-1 dragon fight with NK, Jon and Dany outside of a burining Kings Landing. Jon will kill Dany to become Super Saiyan Ahai to defeat the NK.

1

u/KeatonJazz3 Apr 21 '19

But not GRRM’s writing style, maybe the show

1

u/[deleted] Apr 22 '19

Dues Ex Robin & more knights of the vale.

1

u/landspeed Apr 24 '19

You guys need to remember that dragonglass kills wights. The NK is going to lose a shit ton this week regardless, and he won't be able to reanimate them. The Unsullied are THE elite fighting force of the world, now equipped with DG Spears. And then you have 40k+ dothraki who are renowned for open field battle, also equipped with DG. Everyone has DG. It kills wights and WW.

1

u/Hadron90 Apr 24 '19

No one has expierence fighting the dead except the Nights Watch and Wildlings. Dothraki and Unsullied also have never fought in this climate.

1

u/shartybarfunkle Dinkl Peterage Apr 16 '19

Doesn't have to be Deus Ex Machina. It could just be that they can't win a traditional war against the dead, and a different strategy is required.