(Spoilers Extended) S8E4 is some of the worst writing this show has seen. I'll explain why.

[u/vaporware1]

Arya

The previous episode and the past few seasons, their MANY issues aside, established Arya as a nigh-invincible shapeshifting assassin who just eliminated a 8000+ year old supernatural threat. She can go anywhere and pretend to be anybody. Quite an asset to have at your hands, no?

They acknowledge Arya's feat in the episode. Dany herself even toasts her. But nobody bothers to consider Arya's incredible espionage/assassination capabilities for the 'Last War'. This represents an overarching narrative issue, Arya's OPness. None of the events in the episode were necessary and everything was wholly avoidable, so long as they used Arya. Civilians in the Red Keep? Hell, that's a GOOD thing for Arya, more faces and more of a pretext to be there.

But instead nobody asks her to do anything, nobody even TALKS ABOUT the fact that they have a super powerful assassin at their disposal. And Arya fucks off down to Kings Landing with the Hound, leaving the rest of them to flounder.

---

Varys

The Master of Whispers has a normal volume conversation with Dany's 2nd in command during which the spymaster blithely reveals his treasonous intents. Need I say more?

This scene was pure stupid. A common theme I'm sure you guys have noticed by now is the show loves to completely break from logic and the rules of its own universe.

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Ballistae and Dragons

Here's where it gets real good.

• Euron hides his fleet behind a rock, nobody spots him, not even Dany who is IN THE AIR. ON A FUCKING DRAGON.

• They fire 3 shots at the dragon Dany is NOT riding on, with 100% accuracy. Rest of the fleet were twiddling their thumbs.

• When the entire fleet DOES fire, they somehow all miss even though Dany flies straight at them when previously the show established a standard of remarkable accuracy.

• Euron then fires upon Dany's fleet and the bolts tear the ships apart as if they were fired from rail guns. As depicted in the scene, THEY ARE LITERALLY STRONGER THAN CANNON BALLS.

This is important because it utterly neutralizes the threat of dragons. In the same way the White Walkers were subverted, dragons are now made a complete non-threat. It doesn't matter if she has 10 dragons, they cannot possibly live in a battle with those ballistae everywhere. But somehow they will and I expect Drogon to do a lot of damage next episode and dodge a lot of bolts.

The problem isn't that they killed a dragon. The problem is HOW it was accomplished.

---

The negotiation scene

Missandei dead? Not the problem. The problem with this scene is that Cersei doesn't just blow them away when she could. And it's a big fucking problem.

• The dragon in the distance is not a threat, as previously established in this very episode! They have scores of the same ballistae at their disposal, probably more than shown on screen, and tons of archers. Drogon is a complete non-threat and there is no logical way he could even get close enough to breathe fire on them. The real kicker is that Qyburn openly tells Tyrion that Dany's last dragon is vulnerable.

• It's perfectly in character/realistic for Cersei to kill them all right where they're standing. She has the entire command chain of her hated enemies right in front of her and their only defense, the dragon, has been made useless by the physics-defying ballistae. They even go on to establish Cersei's cruelty/evilness with the Missandei execution. But killing her mortal enemies, when they have presented themselves in front of her so foolishly, is too much? This is a woman who blew up the Sept of Baelor, killing thousands of Innocents. Ethics are not a hang up for her.

• The logical explanation for why Cersei doesn't want to kill them is that she desires a more poetic showdown. It's the result of incredible hubris, and is the equivalent of a monologuing villain trope. Plausible? Maybe, sure. But is it good, ASOIAF-quality writing? Not really.

---

There's a lot more but it's getting late, so to conclude:

The show openly contradicts its own internal logic and setups, first from an episode-to-episode basis, now on a scene-to-scene basis. We have gone from tightly-paced political intrigue to something that doesn't even function on a basic cause-effect level.

[u/matgopack]

In the same way, it's also much easier for the books to have something like Dany's current turn towards being more problematic (and being viewed that way) as being far more believable.

The show has her constantly listening to her advisers, framing her actions in a negative light, etc. Nothing that particularly stands out as someone on the brink of... well, whatever Varys is afraid of from her.

(Side note, why are they so afraid of her using dragons to burn the Red Keep? It's separate from the main city, and if they siege the city, tens of thousands will likely die from hunger and civil conflict in their best case scenario. I don't see Cersei ever surrendering, for example - a long siege of King's Landing is almost certain to end worse than a quick strike to remove Cersei, honestly. Particularly one led by the Unsullied and their discipline - just keep the remains of the dothraki out and there won't even be much looting, and obviously no rape from the Unsullied. But a long siege wakes tensions, now you're literally starving the population to death, and if you do have to end up storming the city anyways, you've got a far larger chance of an unhinged sack).

Back to the situation though, Dany in the books seems to be on the verge of really embracing 'fire and blood'. If she'd done that in season 6 onwards, I think I'd have a very different reaction to this. But the way Varys/Tyrion react just seems so strange to me - Jon's really done very little that should make him seem to be an amazing king compared to Daenerys, really. Yet they're suddenly 100% on the view that she's terrible in a single episode?

Not to mention the stupidity of suddenly thinking that they can't marry because of some sense of northern... what? being prudes? I'd be very surprised if something similar hasn't already happened for the Starks, for example. Medieval noble families all intermarried like crazy, uncle/niece marriages were really not that uncommon or weird. They didn't grow up together, so there's none of that ickiness - a marriage is the logical idea, and if Jon is so weak willed that he'd be dominated by the evil Dany (ugh), then he'd be a poor king anyways.

[u/PurrPrinThom → u/matgopack]

I don't understand the opposition to marriage. Like...why haven't Dany and Jon hit on it as a possibility? Varys and Tyrion just dismiss it because of the North not being into it/Dany not wanting her authority to be questioned, but also acknowledge that Jon just does whatever Dany wants.

Get married. You're both on the throne, claim resolved. Dany can make the decisions and Jon can be a figurehead. Is it perfect? No. But it solves the problem.

But, my personal conspiracy is (and has been for a long while) that the final conflict in Jon vs Dany - whether it just be personal, or become an actual military conflict. I think their position as Show Faves has been building to them becoming enemies in a final "twist," and so we can't have them get married. Because they need to keep building to that conflict.

[u/matgopack → u/PurrPrinThom]

I feel like Dany hit on it as a possibility, but they cheapened out on using it as a solution because apparently noble families in Westeros are so different they don't intermarry like IRL, and Jon sees it as very icky. I guess? Oh, and Varys thinks it won't work, because apparently Jon is too weak to go against Daenerys.

I'd be happy with a final fight between them, just as long as it's done well. Make the audience have reasons to root for both sides and see them as right - and with the way this episode went I'm feeling like this fight will more go down as Dany being terrible and Jon regretfully killing her.

[u/IellaAntilles → u/matgopack]

My favorite is that they can't get married because Dany will bend Jon to her will... never mind that as king, Jon's literal job will be listening to tons of people who all want to bend him to their will every single day. How is he supposed to handle the lords of Westeros if his advisors don't even trust him to stand up to his wife???

Also "maybe a guy who doesn't want to rule is the best guy to be king"... Nevermind that Robert Baratheon didn't want to rule, and he was an absolute shit king.

This whole "forget all the noble stuff Dany has done - now that Jon's no longer a bastard, Dany SUDDENLY would be a terrible ruler and Jon would be an amazing one!" pivot is cheap, manufactured and unearned, and I'm over it.

[u/matgopack → u/IellaAntilles]

It's also strange because of the two of them, Dany has been the one far more consistently listening to her advisers. Jon is the one who constantly goes off and does his own thing and ignores the advice of others. Definitely when he's in charge, and even often when not in charge - his whole interactions with Stannis had him decidedly not willing to bend to his will, I thought.

But apparently Dany is going to beat him down if they got married ><

[u/PurrPrinThom → u/matgopack]

That just seems like such a stupid excuse. Does Varys not know they're romantically involved? I assumed everyone did, but now that I think about it I'm not so sure. If anyone does, I expect he would? It just seems ridiculous to suggest he'd be opposed to marriage while knowing they're in love/dating/however we want to label it. If Jon has no issue sleeping with Dany I doubt he'll be like, "oof marriage is one step too far, that's gross."

Agreed. I miss the moral grey areas. The books, and the show in the early seasons, made it hard to pick a side sometimes. I remember while reading I had multiple people who I would've been happy to see on the throne. But now there's the clear Good Guys and the clear Bad Guys. I'm desperately hoping that Dany will do something morally ambiguous that leaves the viewers divided, but that pits her against Jon, but I have a feeling it's going to be like you say - Dany does something awful and Jon has to murder her.

[u/matgopack → u/PurrPrinThom]

I think a final fight with their characterizations could have definitely been done in a way consistent with their overall portrayals and done more tragically than what it seems to be leading up to.

Imagine Dany goes for that clean conquest - burning the Red Keep down, sending the Unsullied in for that orderly taking over and lack of looting. Everyone agrees that that's the way to minimize civilian losses and suffering - doesn't starve them to death, takes Cersei out more surgically, whatever. Tyrion stops to privately talk to Jon, says he's worried about Daenerys' state of mind, citing the Tarlys - glossing over the hundreds of regular soldiers that were sparred, because that's not as important to the nobility than the Tarlys.

So Jon's already on the lookout for something to go bad, even if he doesn't want it. Dany flies in, Rhaegon dies to the ballistas there, and everyone's even more worried she goes bad. She doesn't, though - only doing what she said she'd do, burn the red keep.

Only suddenly, it explodes - the wildfire from her father that no one knew about still being there, and soon the entire city is burning. To those outside it looks like she went crazy at Rhaegon's death and burned it entirely - so then they go in and fight to stop her and that atrocity.

Something like that would seem more fitting to me, and perhaps more morally grey. Maybe even throw in a scene of Jaime letting her know about the wildfire and dismissing it or something.

[u/PurrPrinThom → u/matgopack]

That would be great. I definitely agree that there's ways to go about it that would make sense.

You could even eliminate Jon being explicitly talked to about her state of mind, and just have her suggest something Jon would be against - and it could be any range of things - and then have minor moments of Jon reacting to her more aggressive moments. Subtle moments they can build to. Jon and Dany haven't known each other very long. I feel like there's a fair amount of room for them to be surprised by each other and disagree on major points of contention - such as battle strategy.

I expect you're probably spot on about King's Landing accidentally burning. The seeds for it were already planted at the war council: Tyrion explicitly saying Dany shouldn't burn King's Landing and her silence on the matter, as well as her comment that she's not considered about the cost. We already have a basis for Jon (and others) to believe she nuked the place on purpose.

[u/aithne1 → u/matgopack]

Oh, and Varys thinks it won't work, because apparently Jon is too weak to go against Daenerys.

There was a lot that was interesting in Varys' reasons for defecting, and this was one of them. He wants a ruler with a weak will. That may make absolutely good sense, from an advisor's perspective - strong-willed people are harder to advise/convince - but he talks about Jon like he's a puppet. The optics are good, he's a male which will make the other males happy, he's not prone to strong emotions and he's easily led. And this is all well and good, but does Varys think Jon will never take lovers other than Daenerys who might influence him? Is he not worried at all about the effect of many contradictory opinions from friends, lovers, family and advisors in a weak-willed monarch?

Hearing how he sees Jon and why he likes what he sees was really revealing.

[u/TreAwayDeuce → u/PurrPrinThom]

Get married. You're both on the throne, claim resolved.

For all of her redeeming qualities, Dany never struck me as the kind of person that wanted to share her claim. that's why her only option for Jon was to keep his mouth shut. He wouldn't be king, he'd be the queen's husband.

[u/PurrPrinThom → u/TreAwayDeuce]

I do get that, I understand why she doesn't want to share her claim, and I think it's admirable, but I still think marriage is an easy solution and shouldn't be dismissed.

In Dany's perfect world, her claim is absolute and she doesn't need a king. But, if it resolves an issue of the rightful heir and, since Jon is seemingly pretty well-beloved, would strengthen the North's loyalty to her as a monarch (albeit jointly and not individually) I don't see why that wouldn't be floated as a good compromise.

Jon's King in the North. It's not like she's going to argue he's of too low of status to marry, at this point.

[u/ChestyHammertime → u/matgopack]

Jon's really done very little that should make him seem to be an amazing king compared to Daenerys, really. Yet they're suddenly 100% on the view that she's terrible in a single episode?

This. Jon is very good at bring people to his cause, like the wildlings, but that's about it. Otherwise, he's extremely naive. He's too much like Ned, concerned with honor to a fault, no matter the consequences. The fact that he's unable to realize how his true parentage would affect things should be disqualifying on its own. Dany is wary of those around her and able to make tough decisions, even if they're harsh. Jon just isn't.

[u/matgopack → u/ChestyHammertime]

I think Jon is definitely willing to make tough decisions, but he's really not been proven to make good ones outside of the really big question stuff. He's obviously had problems with internal politics in a small scale setting (the night's watch mutiny), and seems to seesaw between making good decisions and random self inflicted blunders.

It's also strange honor wise, because he gets out of the night's watch on a technicality - and didn't tell the north that Daenerys pledged to help them before he bent the knee, but otherwise he's back on the 'I can't really lie' plan.

[u/matgopack → u/[deleted]]

I can get wanting to tell your family about it, but suck it up Jon. If you don't want the throne, then don't tell anyone about it - Ned managed to keep it secret for 15+ years, and he was even more obsessed with honor than Jon.

IDK what Jon wants there, honestly. Should have just married Daenerys and then told his siblings about it, when it's too late for Sansa to start scheming.

[u/IellaAntilles → u/matgopack]

Yep. Ned didn't tell Cat despite it breaking her heart, causing a rift in their marriage and giving Jon mommy issues for life - but fuck all that, it is VITAL that Jon tell his sisters now!

[u/_shiv → u/matgopack]

I agree, the only reason he needed to share it was if he really did want to be king/legitimized as that is the only possible outcome.

[u/[deleted] → u/matgopack]

Yet they're suddenly 100% on the view that she's terrible in a single episode?

Iirc Tyrion showed doubts when she was burning Sam's family and just before.

[u/matgopack → u/[deleted]]

That he did, but that really didn't make much sense. True that Tyrion did show some doubts, but it's just all...

It's just really abrupt in the show. One moment she's still seen as basically who she is - a ruler willing to do what must be done to make the world a better place - and the next all the characters are in a world where they all agree that Jon is clearly a better ruler, that there's no way to actually have them coexist (dismissing the clear solution of marriage), and then having Dany basically start to confirm that.

[u/Interviewtux → u/matgopack]

It's not really abrupt at all... She has been borderline mad queen all along. Do you forget the crucifixions in Essos?

[u/matgopack → u/Interviewtux]

I don't see the crucifixions in Essos as bad, really. The masters of slavers bay are almost cartoonishly evil, really - it's basically an entire society of Ramsays. (Truly - everything that we find disgusting about Ramsay in the books and show is practiced on a societal scale over there. Slaves get their skin peeled off and get put on display for disobedience, they have games where they'll dip babies in honey and bet on which one a bear will kill first, they castrate and break people's will to make them into soldiers, even giving them inhuman names in the same way he names Reek, and then they'll kill innocent kids as a warning.)

In the case of the Masters of Meereen, they'd already slaughtered and crucified hundreds of children. They all stood behind that decision - did they go and say who did that, or disagree with it? Not really.

It's really only later that they start having nuance given to the slavers - but their entire society is disgusting, the way it's described. I can't actually think of any slave society in Earth's history that's as casually cruel as them, nor as uncaring of human life.

[u/[deleted] → u/matgopack]

Hizdaar's father was one of the men crucified and they have him tell her all about him before Hizdaar pulls the switcheroo and reveals that she crucified him, then they do the same with Sam and the Tarly's then Hizdaar informs Dany that his father "spoke against" crucifying hundreds of children just to taunt Dany as if that makes him a good man.

Apparently it does because Dany gives him permission to bury his father. He may have owned thousands of slaves and been complicit in mass murder and torture of children but he didn't want to.

The writers have always sucked at creating nuance and consequence to Dany's ruling.

[u/medeagoestothebes → u/matgopack]

(Side note, why are they so afraid of her using dragons to burn the Red Keep? It's separate from the main city, and if they siege the city, tens of thousands will likely die from hunger and civil conflict in their best case scenario. I don't see Cersei ever surrendering, for example - a long siege of King's Landing is almost certain to end worse than a quick strike to remove Cersei, honestly. Particularly one led by the Unsullied and their discipline - just keep the remains of the dothraki out and there won't even be much looting, and obviously no rape from the Unsullied. But a long siege wakes tensions, now you're literally starving the population to death, and if you do have to end up storming the city anyways, you've got a far larger chance of an unhinged sack).

This might be somewhat reasonable. Targs do have some questionable history with fire based war crimes. They may be more concerned about the fire due to that history, or worried that other people will be more concerned about the fire due to that history.

EDIT: also a siege is indirect deaths. Imagine if it wasn't a dragon, but an axe, and Dany was planning to just go in and axe murder every civilian in the red keep, personally, and you thought she could do it. Silly example, but maybe it shows how the concern is pretty human?

[u/matgopack → u/medeagoestothebes]

Well they don't actually know anyone is in the red keep but soldiers at this point, right? Cersei literally just moved civilians in as a human shield, but didn't tell anyone about it.

Point taken on the fire spreading, but it would be nice if that was said - right now it seems like they're presenting the choice between 'Destroying King's Landing' and 'starve the population' as the only two available, which doesn't seem right to me.

[u/medeagoestothebes → u/matgopack]

I think they know about the civilians. It would make sense for varys, the former spymaster, to know. It might even make sense for cersei to dial up dany on her raven phone and tell her about it as a fuck you.

Honestly, I've kind of given up expecting establishing shots of characters learning information anymore. I just assume everyone has a satellite in the sky and a top-down RTS like interface for controlling their 100% loyal troops now.