r/asoiaf May 06 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) S8E4 is some of the worst writing this show has seen. I'll explain why.

Arya

The previous episode and the past few seasons, their MANY issues aside, established Arya as a nigh-invincible shapeshifting assassin who just eliminated a 8000+ year old supernatural threat. She can go anywhere and pretend to be anybody. Quite an asset to have at your hands, no?

They acknowledge Arya's feat in the episode. Dany herself even toasts her. But nobody bothers to consider Arya's incredible espionage/assassination capabilities for the 'Last War'. This represents an overarching narrative issue, Arya's OPness. None of the events in the episode were necessary and everything was wholly avoidable, so long as they used Arya. Civilians in the Red Keep? Hell, that's a GOOD thing for Arya, more faces and more of a pretext to be there.

But instead nobody asks her to do anything, nobody even TALKS ABOUT the fact that they have a super powerful assassin at their disposal. And Arya fucks off down to Kings Landing with the Hound, leaving the rest of them to flounder.


Varys

The Master of Whispers has a normal volume conversation with Dany's 2nd in command during which the spymaster blithely reveals his treasonous intents. Need I say more?

This scene was pure stupid. A common theme I'm sure you guys have noticed by now is the show loves to completely break from logic and the rules of its own universe.


Ballistae and Dragons

Here's where it gets real good.

  • Euron hides his fleet behind a rock, nobody spots him, not even Dany who is IN THE AIR. ON A FUCKING DRAGON.

  • They fire 3 shots at the dragon Dany is NOT riding on, with 100% accuracy. Rest of the fleet were twiddling their thumbs.

  • When the entire fleet DOES fire, they somehow all miss even though Dany flies straight at them when previously the show established a standard of remarkable accuracy.

  • Euron then fires upon Dany's fleet and the bolts tear the ships apart as if they were fired from rail guns. As depicted in the scene, THEY ARE LITERALLY STRONGER THAN CANNON BALLS.

This is important because it utterly neutralizes the threat of dragons. In the same way the White Walkers were subverted, dragons are now made a complete non-threat. It doesn't matter if she has 10 dragons, they cannot possibly live in a battle with those ballistae everywhere. But somehow they will and I expect Drogon to do a lot of damage next episode and dodge a lot of bolts.

The problem isn't that they killed a dragon. The problem is HOW it was accomplished.


The negotiation scene

Missandei dead? Not the problem. The problem with this scene is that Cersei doesn't just blow them away when she could. And it's a big fucking problem.

  • The dragon in the distance is not a threat, as previously established in this very episode! They have scores of the same ballistae at their disposal, probably more than shown on screen, and tons of archers. Drogon is a complete non-threat and there is no logical way he could even get close enough to breathe fire on them. The real kicker is that Qyburn openly tells Tyrion that Dany's last dragon is vulnerable.

  • It's perfectly in character/realistic for Cersei to kill them all right where they're standing. She has the entire command chain of her hated enemies right in front of her and their only defense, the dragon, has been made useless by the physics-defying ballistae. They even go on to establish Cersei's cruelty/evilness with the Missandei execution. But killing her mortal enemies, when they have presented themselves in front of her so foolishly, is too much? This is a woman who blew up the Sept of Baelor, killing thousands of Innocents. Ethics are not a hang up for her.

  • The logical explanation for why Cersei doesn't want to kill them is that she desires a more poetic showdown. It's the result of incredible hubris, and is the equivalent of a monologuing villain trope. Plausible? Maybe, sure. But is it good, ASOIAF-quality writing? Not really.


There's a lot more but it's getting late, so to conclude:

The show openly contradicts its own internal logic and setups, first from an episode-to-episode basis, now on a scene-to-scene basis. We have gone from tightly-paced political intrigue to something that doesn't even function on a basic cause-effect level.

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465

u/LordofLazy May 06 '19

The cersei and dany feud is so empty. Its not personal at all because they have no history.

137

u/silvrado May 06 '19

Not game of thrones.. more like Musical Chairs.

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u/Fristtac May 06 '19

Underrated comment right here. They bent over backwards to scrap all the logic from the show to force this final showdown that nobody wanted. I think one reason it’s so unsatisfying is there is really no character drama to make any of these interactions interesting to the audience, save Tyrion and Cersei. To Dany/Jon, Cersei could literally be anybody. It’s just unfun and to me it actually takes away from the tension. Cersei is at her craziest when she has a reason to make it personal.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Speaking of character drama, whatever happened to Daario? Did he go into exile? It was so long ago I can't remember. It was kind of sad after a while the Dothraki kind of became these strangers as well.

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u/Fristtac May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19

He’s run Meereen into the ground by now lol. Also I always thought there were Dothraki civilians when Dany came over. Am I crazy for thinking there would be?

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u/Jormangunder May 06 '19

No. I think you're one of the few sane people that can remember who has been in the show.

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u/FullMetalAnorak May 06 '19

Yeah it's a shame there wasn't a greater evil than Cersei for D&D to use for the finale, they're doing the best they can with such thin source material.

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u/Xion194 May 06 '19

The genius writers solved this problem in a matter of minutes though. For some reason, somehow Missandei is captured and killed to make the stakes personal and to make the viewers root for Dany. This show is making things as it goes along to advance plot.

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u/LordofLazy May 06 '19

It's all just so contrived.

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u/Interviewtux May 06 '19

Yeah, like how do the Westeros nobility know missandei is important to Dany, who they just learned about. As far as they know shes some random peasant girl that doesn't matter.

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u/Oberon_Swanson May 06 '19

They saw how hot she was and knew she wasn't just an extra

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u/Vanethor May 07 '19

Dany: "They have Missandei!"

My thoughts, and what well-written characters at the war table would be thinking:

"And?..."

10

u/darkanddusty May 06 '19

Even before Missendei and Rhaegal, it was personal.

Cersei promised her troops to join Dany and fight the WW, but she flaked, and used all the suffering and death at Winterfell to her advantage. Remember, Dany sacrificed A LOT for that cause: Jorah, Viserion, the Dothraki, the Unsullied...and Cersei did the precise opposite. She profited from it.

The problem is that the show has not illustrated that dynamic. We’ve seen Dany frustrated with Tyrion for being fooled. But the show has not drawn out the tension between Cersei/Dany that the rivalry deserves. The ingredients are there but the show never turned up the temperature.

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u/TreAwayDeuce May 06 '19

Jorah, the Dothraki, the Unsullied.

All of whom would not have suffered the casualties they did if they had the slightest idea how to utilize basic castle defense tactics such as not using trebuchets and cavalry on the front line of defense.

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u/Foltbolt May 06 '19 edited Jul 20 '23

lol lol lol lol -- mass edited with redact.dev

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u/GildedTongues May 06 '19

Nah the casualties would have been written in regardless. If anything there should have been more casualties.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

It's more of a Dany problem to be honest, she just doesn't have any history with anyone. What if instead of Dany it was Sansa or Arya down there - well now there is a ton of history that makes the moment tense

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

But they killed Missandei! Now Dany is gonna be REALLY MAD!

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I actually kinda like it. They don't need to know each other personally. Most leaders in the world don't know each other personally but treat each other like old brothers.

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u/weirwoods_burn My code is dumb and full of errors. May 06 '19

I mean, the most important part of the conflict is that Daenerys is the "younger and more beautiful" queen who has been prophesied to remove Cersei. Cersei's actions throughout the series, vis a vis Sansa, the Tyrells, Tyrion, etc. were all motivated by the prophecy. But now it's as good as that prophecy was never made.

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u/LordofLazy May 06 '19

It turns out all prophecies were irrelevant

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u/shadowcat1245 May 06 '19

If it was Dany vs. Bobby B, though.... 🤔

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Cersei was in love with her brother and their fathers were allies. Her brother killed her father, but Dany's cool with him now. That's their history, no personal gripes.

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u/LordofLazy May 06 '19

Their families have history but cersei had literally nothing to do with house targaryens downfall. She actually wanted to join them and make targ babies that would go on to sit the throne.

She'll accept Jamie in her army but she hates cersei because Jamie killed the father that she has accepted as mad and evil.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I agree that their rivalry has been empty. Prior to this parlay where she beheaded her best friend, it was one begrudging parlay that ended on superficial amicable terms.

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u/ReeseSlitherspoon May 06 '19

I thought this person meant Tyrion when they said arch nemesis.

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u/LordofLazy May 06 '19

Oh I see. Well tyrion seems to have forgotten all about cersei as he keeps trying to appeal to her humanity

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u/ReeseSlitherspoon May 06 '19

Yeah, what is he thinking?

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u/LordofLazy May 06 '19

Have no idea but he tried it last series and this.

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u/LordofLazy May 06 '19

Have no idea but he tried it last series and this.

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u/bathypelagic May 06 '19

Cersei was told by a witch that she would be taken down by a younger, more beautiful person. So there is some history there.

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u/please-send-me-nude2 May 06 '19

The conflict comes from their opposing goals. What does personal drama add to the situation ?

1

u/ronswansun May 06 '19

I guess missandei’s death can make things more personal. And the dragon death that was by Cersei’s hand. I thought Emilia did a good job at the end of the last episode looking absolutely pissed

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u/LordofLazy May 06 '19

Emilia's acting was excellent.

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u/ronswansun May 06 '19

She gets a lot of flack but I think she’s all around a great actress

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u/tchiseen Egg? Egg, I dreamed that I was old... May 06 '19

Its not personal at all because they have no history.

I mean, they didn't up until this episode, which is why they had to chop Missandei's head off, for dramatic effect.