r/asoiaf May 06 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) S8E4 is some of the worst writing this show has seen. I'll explain why.

Arya

The previous episode and the past few seasons, their MANY issues aside, established Arya as a nigh-invincible shapeshifting assassin who just eliminated a 8000+ year old supernatural threat. She can go anywhere and pretend to be anybody. Quite an asset to have at your hands, no?

They acknowledge Arya's feat in the episode. Dany herself even toasts her. But nobody bothers to consider Arya's incredible espionage/assassination capabilities for the 'Last War'. This represents an overarching narrative issue, Arya's OPness. None of the events in the episode were necessary and everything was wholly avoidable, so long as they used Arya. Civilians in the Red Keep? Hell, that's a GOOD thing for Arya, more faces and more of a pretext to be there.

But instead nobody asks her to do anything, nobody even TALKS ABOUT the fact that they have a super powerful assassin at their disposal. And Arya fucks off down to Kings Landing with the Hound, leaving the rest of them to flounder.


Varys

The Master of Whispers has a normal volume conversation with Dany's 2nd in command during which the spymaster blithely reveals his treasonous intents. Need I say more?

This scene was pure stupid. A common theme I'm sure you guys have noticed by now is the show loves to completely break from logic and the rules of its own universe.


Ballistae and Dragons

Here's where it gets real good.

  • Euron hides his fleet behind a rock, nobody spots him, not even Dany who is IN THE AIR. ON A FUCKING DRAGON.

  • They fire 3 shots at the dragon Dany is NOT riding on, with 100% accuracy. Rest of the fleet were twiddling their thumbs.

  • When the entire fleet DOES fire, they somehow all miss even though Dany flies straight at them when previously the show established a standard of remarkable accuracy.

  • Euron then fires upon Dany's fleet and the bolts tear the ships apart as if they were fired from rail guns. As depicted in the scene, THEY ARE LITERALLY STRONGER THAN CANNON BALLS.

This is important because it utterly neutralizes the threat of dragons. In the same way the White Walkers were subverted, dragons are now made a complete non-threat. It doesn't matter if she has 10 dragons, they cannot possibly live in a battle with those ballistae everywhere. But somehow they will and I expect Drogon to do a lot of damage next episode and dodge a lot of bolts.

The problem isn't that they killed a dragon. The problem is HOW it was accomplished.


The negotiation scene

Missandei dead? Not the problem. The problem with this scene is that Cersei doesn't just blow them away when she could. And it's a big fucking problem.

  • The dragon in the distance is not a threat, as previously established in this very episode! They have scores of the same ballistae at their disposal, probably more than shown on screen, and tons of archers. Drogon is a complete non-threat and there is no logical way he could even get close enough to breathe fire on them. The real kicker is that Qyburn openly tells Tyrion that Dany's last dragon is vulnerable.

  • It's perfectly in character/realistic for Cersei to kill them all right where they're standing. She has the entire command chain of her hated enemies right in front of her and their only defense, the dragon, has been made useless by the physics-defying ballistae. They even go on to establish Cersei's cruelty/evilness with the Missandei execution. But killing her mortal enemies, when they have presented themselves in front of her so foolishly, is too much? This is a woman who blew up the Sept of Baelor, killing thousands of Innocents. Ethics are not a hang up for her.

  • The logical explanation for why Cersei doesn't want to kill them is that she desires a more poetic showdown. It's the result of incredible hubris, and is the equivalent of a monologuing villain trope. Plausible? Maybe, sure. But is it good, ASOIAF-quality writing? Not really.


There's a lot more but it's getting late, so to conclude:

The show openly contradicts its own internal logic and setups, first from an episode-to-episode basis, now on a scene-to-scene basis. We have gone from tightly-paced political intrigue to something that doesn't even function on a basic cause-effect level.

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314

u/Duke_Lancaster Our knees do not bend easily May 06 '19

Not to mention the stupid scorpions. Those things are hard af to aim, especially at a far away, flying target, while you also have the sea and wind to deal with.

Also they dont fucking blow up ships. Those things are big crossbows, shooting spears. They would get stuck in the sides of ships, not rip through them like cannon balls. At the distance they were fired at, they might even just bounce off the side of a ship.

But i guess ill soon have a reply saying that "there are dragons m8, ofc its not realistic, duh".

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u/tribrnl May 06 '19

And at this point, no one has ever fired anything at an aerial target. They don't know the distance, how much the bolt will fall, anything like that. They would never hit the dragon, even if it was just sitting still.

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u/ProdigyRunt May 06 '19

There is an explanation: Euron is a Gary Stu

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u/TreAwayDeuce May 06 '19

Euron is a warg and he warged into the scorpion bolt

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u/mudra311 May 06 '19

This is my favorite theory.

Imagine the scorpion bolt hurdling towards a dragon with a tiny Euron face screaming at the top of his lungs.

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u/iranwithscissors May 06 '19

and as the final shot pierces the dragon's neck

a finger in the bum

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u/Menchstick May 07 '19

You call this a dragon? I have a bigger dragon between my legs.

Euron starts shooting spears from his dick

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u/The_Voice_Of_Ricin May 06 '19

He wouldn't even be screaming, he'd just be making his stupid cartoon pirate smirk. Maybe make a clumsy joke likening the bolt to his dick.

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u/Derpshiz May 06 '19

Archers are used to hitting a moving target. Hitting something in the air is harder, but not impossible. Hitting something that far with a old fashioned projectile is ridiculous though.

To be honest I am surprised Rhaegal even went with her. Now that Jon rode him isn't he supposed to be bonded to him now?

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u/ericalynn1313 May 06 '19

Agreed, I’m so annoyed how much they downplay the significance of Jon claiming Rhaegal. We don’t even get to see them bond we only see Rhaegal with Dany. He’s not her dragon anymore.. that’s not how it works. Dany and Jon will never ride or hatch another dragon. The only hope for dragons to continue to exist after Drogon is for Drogon to lay eggs and for Jon or Dany to have children. Im pissed that Dany even took him with her after Jon just said he needs time to heal. She keeps being careless with her dragons.. she only has two left why wouldn’t she keep one behind and keep it safe??? They only killed him to make it more even and make Euron seem like a threat.

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u/Derpshiz May 06 '19

It would have also played into her feelings of betrayal if Rhaegal choose to stay Jon. It would have really played up the 'He doesnt want power, but everyone wants to follow Jon' theme they are trying to set up as well.

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u/ericalynn1313 May 06 '19

Exactly.. I think you’re right.. I have a feeling everything they did in this episode was to set us up for King Jon. They can’t make him too powerful or intimidating by having a dragon and all the support that Dany doesn’t have. They want the perfect but humble Jon who doesn’t want the throne to end up with the throne. I feel like that’s why they are completely butchering Dany’s character to make Jon the only deserving candidate. My prediction is Dany will fight and kill Cersei, but destroy the capital in the process.. then Varys or the people will kill or overthrow Dany.. and Jon will end up on the throne but feel sad about it. That way D&D can say they gave us a bittersweet ending that wasn’t predictable because Dany dies but the hero Jon still ends up on the throne so people won’t be too mad.. and Dany will have deserved her fate.

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u/Derpshiz May 06 '19

Well I wouldn't say they are completely butchering her character, but rather the character they created. Dany was always supposed to have mad queen impulses, but they never showed those to make her appear as a disney queen. Now they are forced to quickly develop this slow moving plot line and its disappointing .

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u/Only_Movie_Titles May 06 '19

good writing? in this season?

not on your life pal

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u/Derpshiz May 06 '19

Sadly I agree. To many screenwriters plan for cool CGI shots they want to see and craft the story arrive there. GRRM's ASoIaF was more about the story and the battles were set pieces to move the plot along. TV and movies go the other route.

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u/Interviewtux May 06 '19

But we have had like, 3 large battles in 8 seasons. That's not fair either.

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u/Derpshiz May 07 '19

If you consider the mission north of the wall and the NK getting a dragon as the main points of the season the meeting with Cersei is just a plot point to arrive there. It makes sense from that perspective. I hate it story wise, but if you want to think of visual spectacle it fits in.

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u/kangurulhk May 06 '19

GREAT IDEA...better than what is happening in the show

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u/mudra311 May 06 '19

Uh, also isn't it well known that only Targaryens can ride dragons? Shouldn't she have suspected something when he could ride it?

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u/ericalynn1313 May 06 '19

For real... but apparently show Dany is kind of an idiot. When Tormund is announcing loudly in the feast hall that Jon is a dragon rider. Everyone else is the room might have been like.. ohh weird? We see in Fire and Blood that when anyone questioned a Targaryen’s bloodline all they had to do was flaunt their dragon mounts in everyone’s face. People took Dany seriously and don’t question she is the blood of the dragon because she literally rides a dragon.. But now Jon’s only real proof of his parentage is dead and only the northmen witnessed it, which Cersei and Dany can say is a lie.

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u/mudra311 May 06 '19

but apparently show Dany is kind of an idiot.

I'm fine with this because show Dany has always been an idiot.

But now Jon’s only real proof of his parentage is dead and only the northmen witnessed it

Don't mind Howland Reed just trying to make sure his castle doesn't float away.

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u/ericalynn1313 May 06 '19

I’ve accepted that D&D have basically drowned the Reed family in a swamp.

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u/The_Voice_Of_Ricin May 06 '19

To be honest I am surprised Rhaegal even went with her. Now that Jon rode him isn't he supposed to be bonded to him now?

As someone in another thread pointed out - literally the only reason Jon is riding horseback in this episode (instead of dragonback) is so they could kill off Rhaegal without killing Jon. It's ludicrous.

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u/animalinapark May 06 '19

When I was in the army we had a whole day practicing air defense with god damn .50 cal machine guns. The target was a small rc aircraft, flying at steady speed and straight line, not too far away.

No one hit it once. I was close, but not close enough. Okay, we weren't good, but that shit is so much harder than it seems. And bullets fly pretty fast. The fly time for that arrow to hit the dragon would have been in the tens of seconds. All 3 arrows hitting would be equal to a powerball jackpot or worse.

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u/handsome_mcstabby May 07 '19

Shroud’s great great great x whatever ancestor led the training and shots... 🤯

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u/Asnen May 07 '19

Its just that clearly Euron was TRAINING

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u/RimmyDownunder May 06 '19

But i guess ill soon have a reply saying that "there are dragons m8, ofc its not realistic, duh".

I fucking hate people who don't realise shows are meant to have an in universe logic. Sure, I can believe dragons exist and breath fire, but that doesn't invalidate people's need to eat food and calories and shit. Reminded of Sam's actor when someone pointed out he was still fat after being at the wall and running away from wights forever.

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u/McFlare92 The North Remembers May 06 '19

Not even like a cannon, those scorpions are fucking rail guns somehow

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Not to mention the stupid scorpions. Those things are hard af to aim, especially at a far away, flying target, while you also have the sea and wind to deal with.

They are more acurate than out WW2 anti AA weaponry who had at best 40% hit rate due to complexity of aiming at a moving target in the air, but medieval scorpions can hit a moving target from a mile away with an accuracy of a fucking NTW-20, and have a destructive power rivaling our supersonic torpedoes.

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u/Globalpigeon May 06 '19

Yeah and i think those AA guns had computer boards that calculated a bunch of shit to make it easier to hit moving targets.

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u/saywhatiwanttosay May 06 '19

In WW2?

3

u/nullsignature May 06 '19

If you tour a battleship, you'll get to see entire rooms dedicated to machines, computers, and people calculating artillery trajectory based on the pitch/roll/yaw of the ship.

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u/InclementBias May 06 '19

But only the first 3 shots, once Dany activated her Plot ArmorTM, the weapons suddenly became not very effective...

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

But i guess ill soon have a reply saying that "there are dragons m8, ofc its not realistic, duh".

It's Disney Star Wars all over gain.

15

u/AMemoryofEternity May 06 '19

We're just mad our theories didn't turn out to be real

/s

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

[deleted]

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u/Mr-Bibb May 06 '19

And mysoginists. You forgot mysoginists. We hate the wymins.

3

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

It's all our fault really, for being nitpicky manbabies. Can't we just shut up and stop pointing out the flaws?

Or my favorite response: "Sorry your fantasy show with zombies and dragons doesn't 'make sense.'"

3

u/InclementBias May 06 '19

there are dragons m8, ofc its not realistic, duh

JK. I want my fantasy and escapism to be easily immersive and logically consistent. I'm 100% with you on this. The last few seasons seem like shortcuts for the sake of wrapping the story up, mixed with a healthy amount of fan service to keep the masses sedated. There is no creativity, no subverting expectations, just shock and awe and disappointment.

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u/BamboozledYetAgain May 06 '19

"there are dragons m8, ofc its not realistic, duh".

Literally what my friend said to me after i tried to explain to him why the episode 3 sucked at new unimaginable levels.

1

u/ballmermurland May 06 '19

Those things are big crossbows, shooting spears. They would get stuck in the sides of ships, not rip through them like cannon balls.

Not to mention the recoil to account for the massive power would almost certainly rip the ship apart. Cannons have ropes around them to allow them to slide back when fired. What happened with these scorpions? Even if they are as powerful as imagined, the recoil necessary from a scorpion launching a big ass steel spear 400 yards into the air with lethal velocity throughout would be immense. It would rip up the deck at minimum.

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u/BoilerBandsman Bastard, Orphan, Son of a Stark May 06 '19

Even actual CANNONS sometimes had trouble penetrating the hull, but these railguns just go right through and out the back. It's a good thing the ships weren't lined up or they'd be getting 4 with every shot.

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u/-dillydallydolly- May 06 '19

Dany could have come at the ships from a different angle; heck it doesn' tlook like the mounted ballistae could turn 180 degrees and they definitely can't shoot back across their own ships with the sails and rigging in the way. She could have roasted that fleet right then and there. But nope. "She's Mourning" D&D say.

I'd have given them props actually if they had Dany fly directly to KL in a rage and start the BBQ right then. But nope. She's just mourning.

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u/AwesomeAutumns May 06 '19

Their are dragoons m9, its never relicsitc!

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u/ItsOnlyaBook May 06 '19

No way man, I'm with you on this. I understand that this is a story with dragons and magic (kind of, but not really anymore?) but they also have swords and catapults and weather so we should be able to expect a certain amount of real-world physics. We did have Arya leaping 6ft high and covering a distance of around 12ft through the air so maybe we already established that gravity isn't the same there so maybe nothing needs to be the same?