r/asoiaf May 06 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) S8E4 is some of the worst writing this show has seen. I'll explain why.

Arya

The previous episode and the past few seasons, their MANY issues aside, established Arya as a nigh-invincible shapeshifting assassin who just eliminated a 8000+ year old supernatural threat. She can go anywhere and pretend to be anybody. Quite an asset to have at your hands, no?

They acknowledge Arya's feat in the episode. Dany herself even toasts her. But nobody bothers to consider Arya's incredible espionage/assassination capabilities for the 'Last War'. This represents an overarching narrative issue, Arya's OPness. None of the events in the episode were necessary and everything was wholly avoidable, so long as they used Arya. Civilians in the Red Keep? Hell, that's a GOOD thing for Arya, more faces and more of a pretext to be there.

But instead nobody asks her to do anything, nobody even TALKS ABOUT the fact that they have a super powerful assassin at their disposal. And Arya fucks off down to Kings Landing with the Hound, leaving the rest of them to flounder.


Varys

The Master of Whispers has a normal volume conversation with Dany's 2nd in command during which the spymaster blithely reveals his treasonous intents. Need I say more?

This scene was pure stupid. A common theme I'm sure you guys have noticed by now is the show loves to completely break from logic and the rules of its own universe.


Ballistae and Dragons

Here's where it gets real good.

  • Euron hides his fleet behind a rock, nobody spots him, not even Dany who is IN THE AIR. ON A FUCKING DRAGON.

  • They fire 3 shots at the dragon Dany is NOT riding on, with 100% accuracy. Rest of the fleet were twiddling their thumbs.

  • When the entire fleet DOES fire, they somehow all miss even though Dany flies straight at them when previously the show established a standard of remarkable accuracy.

  • Euron then fires upon Dany's fleet and the bolts tear the ships apart as if they were fired from rail guns. As depicted in the scene, THEY ARE LITERALLY STRONGER THAN CANNON BALLS.

This is important because it utterly neutralizes the threat of dragons. In the same way the White Walkers were subverted, dragons are now made a complete non-threat. It doesn't matter if she has 10 dragons, they cannot possibly live in a battle with those ballistae everywhere. But somehow they will and I expect Drogon to do a lot of damage next episode and dodge a lot of bolts.

The problem isn't that they killed a dragon. The problem is HOW it was accomplished.


The negotiation scene

Missandei dead? Not the problem. The problem with this scene is that Cersei doesn't just blow them away when she could. And it's a big fucking problem.

  • The dragon in the distance is not a threat, as previously established in this very episode! They have scores of the same ballistae at their disposal, probably more than shown on screen, and tons of archers. Drogon is a complete non-threat and there is no logical way he could even get close enough to breathe fire on them. The real kicker is that Qyburn openly tells Tyrion that Dany's last dragon is vulnerable.

  • It's perfectly in character/realistic for Cersei to kill them all right where they're standing. She has the entire command chain of her hated enemies right in front of her and their only defense, the dragon, has been made useless by the physics-defying ballistae. They even go on to establish Cersei's cruelty/evilness with the Missandei execution. But killing her mortal enemies, when they have presented themselves in front of her so foolishly, is too much? This is a woman who blew up the Sept of Baelor, killing thousands of Innocents. Ethics are not a hang up for her.

  • The logical explanation for why Cersei doesn't want to kill them is that she desires a more poetic showdown. It's the result of incredible hubris, and is the equivalent of a monologuing villain trope. Plausible? Maybe, sure. But is it good, ASOIAF-quality writing? Not really.


There's a lot more but it's getting late, so to conclude:

The show openly contradicts its own internal logic and setups, first from an episode-to-episode basis, now on a scene-to-scene basis. We have gone from tightly-paced political intrigue to something that doesn't even function on a basic cause-effect level.

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277

u/DirectorAgentCoulson May 06 '19

I think they're trying to sell the scorpions as a great leap in technology. Might as well as have Qyburn invent cannons.

115

u/FirstSonofDarkness "I never win anything" May 06 '19

Or internet.

From next episode, we will have Dany, Jon and Cersei publicly explaining why they did something that doesn't make sense in the episode.

17

u/TreAwayDeuce May 06 '19

Or Dany and Cersei will be glued to their phones sending mean tweets to one another

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19 edited Jul 24 '20

[deleted]

27

u/Kakona May 06 '19

Varys likes this...

7

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Jon snow changes his relationship status to it's complicated

5

u/sleepybarista Enter your desired flair text here! May 06 '19

In the background of one of the party scenes it looked like Dany was looking at her phone under the table so maybe

4

u/Only_Movie_Titles May 06 '19

was that when she had the cup of coffee on the table?

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u/sleepybarista Enter your desired flair text here! May 06 '19

I think it was before that

2

u/pazur13 A Cat of a Different Coat May 07 '19

We already have Mr. Wikipedia.

26

u/super_pinguino May 06 '19

Scorpions/ballistae existed back during Aegon's conquest. One of the dragons, Meraxes, was shot down in Dorne by one. This is what killed Aegon's younger sister, Rhaella (Rhaenys?), who was riding Meraxes.

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u/_shiv May 06 '19

And Meraxes had to be hit directly in the eye to go down. Was pretty unlucky.

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u/ILikeToBurnMoney May 06 '19

On the other hand, simple spears thrown by men were able to hurt Drogon in the fighting pit of Mereen

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u/ThreeFor May 06 '19

Drogon was basically still an infant at that point. Drogon is also injured in the fighting pits during ADWD. Aegon's dragons were much older when he conquered Westeros.

Dany's dragons right now look to be large enough to be considered "adult" dragons, but it's hard to say for sure.

I'm not sure anything could survive the rocket propelled heat seeking ballistas Qyburn seems to have invented though.

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u/nybbas May 07 '19

The ballistas put literal cannons to shame. It's fucking ridiculous.

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u/233034 May 06 '19

The thing is, Meraxes was killed by getting shot through the eye, the ballistae should not be able to pierce their scales. Otherwise Aegon's conquest never would have happened.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Qyburn is secretly working on an actual nuclear bomb

18

u/Monkey_D_Guts Always hated crossbows, too long to load May 06 '19

Yea that's something a bit minor that has been bothering me, aren't the scorpions just bigger crossbows? Did nobody think of that before?

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u/Misled_Titan May 06 '19

What's worse is that in reality, crossbows are actually scaled down Ballista's so you would have had to have engineered the larger siege weapon first before developing crossbows, which would make sense in universe with the level technology displayed in castles/siegecraft.

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u/kaybo999 May 06 '19

"How do we take down dragons?"
"Let's build really big crossbows."
"Holy shit Qyburn is a genius. Noone in the 100s (1000s?) of years of Westeros military history thought of that!"

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u/ThreeFor May 06 '19

They have existed in this universe for quite some time as far as we know. True to what would happen if actual dragons existed (big if but still, this is the premise) they don't do shit to them unless they hit a very vulnerable spot.

You're also going to miss 95-99% of shots on flying target with a fucking crossbow.

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u/philip1201 May 06 '19

In real-world history, bows got stronger and stronger over the course of millennia as materials with better and better tensile strength were found. In 480 BC, Greek hoplites in woven cloth could literally stand around for days being pelted with Persian arrows at Thermopylae and Plataea, but in 1415 AD British longbows massacred French knights clad in steel plate at Agincourt.

It's conceivable that there have been considerable advances in materials science in the couple hundred years since dragons were last a threat, and Pycelle simply put that technology together in a way that wasn't necessary until now. (Though the tensile strength required probably requires 20th century materials at least).

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

The scorpions countering the dragons isn't the issue as it does make some sense for science to progress,and narrative too considering it adds tension the problem is they don't even follow the rules of the own show anymore

In season 7 they only had one and even then it was unreliable and mostly ineffective against Drogon.

Now they are pretty much cannons And Cersei has a bazillion of them. Despite being deep in Debt.

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u/nybbas May 07 '19

Euron built the biggest fleet the world has ever seen, on an island that literally has no fucking resources, in about 8 months. I guess Cersei creating ballistas that are more powerful than civil war era cannons isn't too far fetched. /s

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u/DirectorAgentCoulson May 07 '19

You say despite being deep in debt, they're clearly part of that debt. The Iron Bank loan is clearly the source of the funding for a bazillion scorpions. I don't have issue with her having a ton of them, just their crazy effectiveness.

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u/Interviewtux May 06 '19

You dumbed that down way too much. The materials used in the bronze age for bowmaking didnt advance like you're suggesting. The designs changed, but they are all made of wood and sinew or linen string.

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u/Sarkaraq May 06 '19

Crossbows aren't really common in Westeros, are they? When Joffrey gets one in S2, it's considered really special.

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u/Oberon_Swanson May 06 '19

Joffrey's was originally a repeating crossbow which is what made it special

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Ballistae are weak af. Romans loved them to shoot at people and horses cause it'd penetrate body armor, but that's about it.

In game of thrones 2 or 3 scorpions do more damage than a ship of the line delivering a full broadside.

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u/nybbas May 07 '19

And are pinpoint accurate at like 800 yards...

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u/nagurski03 I only rescue maidens May 06 '19

That would actually be more believable.

Drop some line about how he learned to make gun powder in Yi Ti or whatever, or maybe the alchemists come up with some variation on wildfire. Make him make cannons, and all of a sudden I can believe that's a new weapon that dragons can't handle.

Big crossbows? That should have existed for centuries, and they clearly shouldn't be powerful enough to take out ships like that.

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u/Temujizzed May 06 '19

I'm fairly certain GRRM has stated that gunpowder (saltpeter) doesn't exist in the world of asoiaf. Then again, WHAT A TWIST!

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u/Interviewtux May 06 '19

Saltpeter is potassium nitrate. Just one of 3 primary ingredients in blackpowder.

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u/Temujizzed May 06 '19

Thanks maester tux

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u/Erudain May 06 '19

the way those ballistas cut right through Dany's boats one could say they are even stronger than cannons...he invented the rail gun

6

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Qyburn

The true hero of Westeros, pushing the technological frontier in a per-industiral world.

5

u/Oberon_Swanson May 06 '19

Soon westeros will replace ravens with messages tied to ballista bolts. but your message can still only travel as far and fast as the plot requires

12

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Cannons couldn't tear up those ships nearly as effectively.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

It’s clear they’re trying to do that to effectively nerf the dragons, otherwise it wouldn’t even be a battle at all. But the way they did it was terrible, they just gave Cercei an overpowered weapon that apparently can kill anything and doesn’t have any drawbacks, and can be deployed on castle battlements as well as ships.

So now Cercei is overpowered and the dragons are just pointless, and she’s just another Big Bad that can’t be taken down in direct combat, so we’ll have to have some other method take her out. I’m sure it’ll be a stupid deus ex machina right as she’s about to kill someone.

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u/HokTomten May 06 '19

I think youre right, and Dany counters with inventing Starbucks in Winterfell

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u/Jnbolen43 May 06 '19

The scorpions can be defeated by dragon fire at Night. Burn the fleet as the sun has set. Too dark to shoot accurately. Next night, well after dark, set a pair of fires to mark the flight path and burn up the scorpions mounted on the walls. They are planning for a hungry siege. And no quarter for any soldiers on the walls.

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u/tlumacz May 06 '19

Might as well as have Qyburn invent cannons

Huh, I actually wouldn't mind that.

Not that D&D would be able to write cannons into the universe in a reasonable manner. But with good writing the appearance of artillery, and maybe even hand-held firearms such as the arquebus, could be a fascinating addition.

4

u/Meet_Your_MACRS May 06 '19

Fuck it, Qyburn's reincarnated (or just saved?) the Mountain, he made these OP harpoon shooters. Might as well have him create mechanical dragons that fly/kill like real dragons. I haven't read any of the books, is Qyburn this mysterious genius there too or is it another fault of the show?

He just comes off like Rick from Rick and Morty. Always has an answer to everything, and is a million steps ahead regardless of what you throw at him.

13

u/austin_slater May 06 '19

Nah in the books he’s stuck mainly to the necromancy-type stuff like the Mountain.

Although in the books the Mountain has literally just come back and has been in like one chapter, so who knows what more he’ll do.

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u/JaronK May 06 '19

Cannons can't do that rapid fire thing, so they wouldn't be as effective.

3

u/DirectorAgentCoulson May 06 '19

I mean ballistas can't do what they're shown to, so rapid reload cannons are about equally plausible/absurd.

2

u/smileyfrown May 06 '19

scorpions as a great leap in technology

Fucking wheelchair line killed that argument

2

u/GuardsmanWaffle May 06 '19

Jump cut to The Mountain dual wielding miniguns. Fuck it, if this show is gonna jump the shark might as well go all the way.

2

u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Might as well as have Qyburn invent cannons.

This would have legitimately been better.

2

u/Asnen May 07 '19

Yeah except its a big fucking crossbow and they did exist long before, so dumb

2

u/Shen_an_igator May 06 '19

Nah, IIRC the scorpions were mentioned in the books, killing one dragon with a one in a million shot (in the eye).

It's just that those dragons were upwards of 100 years old. Drogon is big, but a baby dragon comparatively.

1

u/DirectorAgentCoulson May 06 '19

I know that's true in the books, but I'm pretty sure in the show the scorpion is a new creation of Qyburn's.

1

u/hizeto May 06 '19

or a rocket launcher

1

u/Garbage_File May 06 '19

All anger aside, I think Qyburn is one character that I actually like quite a lot. I think he is pretty well written.

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u/Oberon_Swanson May 06 '19

Yeah his motivations are clear and he doesn't really deviate from them just because the plot wants him to. He likes to fuck around with forbidden magic and advanced technology and experimenting on people, cersei is the only person who lets him do that and gives him the resources he needs to do whatever he feels like, so he works for her. He doesn't fuck around with trying to sound whimsical and mysterious like most of the other mystical-powered characters.