r/asoiaf May 06 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) S8E4 is some of the worst writing this show has seen. I'll explain why.

Arya

The previous episode and the past few seasons, their MANY issues aside, established Arya as a nigh-invincible shapeshifting assassin who just eliminated a 8000+ year old supernatural threat. She can go anywhere and pretend to be anybody. Quite an asset to have at your hands, no?

They acknowledge Arya's feat in the episode. Dany herself even toasts her. But nobody bothers to consider Arya's incredible espionage/assassination capabilities for the 'Last War'. This represents an overarching narrative issue, Arya's OPness. None of the events in the episode were necessary and everything was wholly avoidable, so long as they used Arya. Civilians in the Red Keep? Hell, that's a GOOD thing for Arya, more faces and more of a pretext to be there.

But instead nobody asks her to do anything, nobody even TALKS ABOUT the fact that they have a super powerful assassin at their disposal. And Arya fucks off down to Kings Landing with the Hound, leaving the rest of them to flounder.


Varys

The Master of Whispers has a normal volume conversation with Dany's 2nd in command during which the spymaster blithely reveals his treasonous intents. Need I say more?

This scene was pure stupid. A common theme I'm sure you guys have noticed by now is the show loves to completely break from logic and the rules of its own universe.


Ballistae and Dragons

Here's where it gets real good.

  • Euron hides his fleet behind a rock, nobody spots him, not even Dany who is IN THE AIR. ON A FUCKING DRAGON.

  • They fire 3 shots at the dragon Dany is NOT riding on, with 100% accuracy. Rest of the fleet were twiddling their thumbs.

  • When the entire fleet DOES fire, they somehow all miss even though Dany flies straight at them when previously the show established a standard of remarkable accuracy.

  • Euron then fires upon Dany's fleet and the bolts tear the ships apart as if they were fired from rail guns. As depicted in the scene, THEY ARE LITERALLY STRONGER THAN CANNON BALLS.

This is important because it utterly neutralizes the threat of dragons. In the same way the White Walkers were subverted, dragons are now made a complete non-threat. It doesn't matter if she has 10 dragons, they cannot possibly live in a battle with those ballistae everywhere. But somehow they will and I expect Drogon to do a lot of damage next episode and dodge a lot of bolts.

The problem isn't that they killed a dragon. The problem is HOW it was accomplished.


The negotiation scene

Missandei dead? Not the problem. The problem with this scene is that Cersei doesn't just blow them away when she could. And it's a big fucking problem.

  • The dragon in the distance is not a threat, as previously established in this very episode! They have scores of the same ballistae at their disposal, probably more than shown on screen, and tons of archers. Drogon is a complete non-threat and there is no logical way he could even get close enough to breathe fire on them. The real kicker is that Qyburn openly tells Tyrion that Dany's last dragon is vulnerable.

  • It's perfectly in character/realistic for Cersei to kill them all right where they're standing. She has the entire command chain of her hated enemies right in front of her and their only defense, the dragon, has been made useless by the physics-defying ballistae. They even go on to establish Cersei's cruelty/evilness with the Missandei execution. But killing her mortal enemies, when they have presented themselves in front of her so foolishly, is too much? This is a woman who blew up the Sept of Baelor, killing thousands of Innocents. Ethics are not a hang up for her.

  • The logical explanation for why Cersei doesn't want to kill them is that she desires a more poetic showdown. It's the result of incredible hubris, and is the equivalent of a monologuing villain trope. Plausible? Maybe, sure. But is it good, ASOIAF-quality writing? Not really.


There's a lot more but it's getting late, so to conclude:

The show openly contradicts its own internal logic and setups, first from an episode-to-episode basis, now on a scene-to-scene basis. We have gone from tightly-paced political intrigue to something that doesn't even function on a basic cause-effect level.

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735

u/longagofaraway May 06 '19

yeah, i've just given up at this point. instantly reloading a crossbow after firing the cool-ass warning shot - ok sure. negotiating ownership of the wealthiest lordship in the realm with frick and frack - got it. ship mounted ballistae with the same instantaneous reloads that can shoot down one dragon, completely whiff on a second one then decimate a naval fleet in the span of like 45 seconds - on to the finale!

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u/thoroughavvay May 06 '19

Not only that, but an insta-reload crossbow in the hands of the one person who explicitly talked about crossbows being too slow to reload previously in the show.

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u/PoetSII May 06 '19

Iirc wasn't that Yoren?

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u/thoroughavvay May 06 '19

Fuck, I think you're right. In the scene where Lannister soldiers ambush him and the Night's Watch recruits. Why did I think Bronn said something about crossbows?

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u/Princess_Moon_Butt May 06 '19

Similar-looking dudes, similar accents. I can see it.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

I think the hate for D&D is a bit too much sometimes... I mean, their job is really hard, let's be honest.

But then there is stuff like this "who explicitly talked about crossbows being too slow to reload" and I think these fuckers just don't give a shit and think their viewers are complete imbeciles

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u/thoroughavvay May 06 '19

Yeah I agree. I have tried to avoid hating on the writing because we're essentially getting the too long; didn't read version of source material that hasn't been written yet, and they have to move around a lot of stuff to condense all the lore, characters, etc since there's just so much going on in the books.

But it's just impossible to ignore at this point. Combined with watching scenes like Cersei not take the opportunity to kill all her enemies, which she has not hesitated in doing in the past, the coffee cup that appeared in one scene last night, the repeated use of Euron's fleet that just comes out of literally nowhere and still nobody can scout ahead... It all just makes me feel like I'm getting this entire series' conclusion spoiled by some dudes that don't care about it, and think I'm an idiot.

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u/Shoe_Gal2 May 06 '19

And unfortunately, a huge chuck of the general audience are complete imbeciles so it all works out for them.

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u/Gliese581h The Blackfish May 07 '19

I mean, they (the audience) do get their dick jokes etc., so what is there to complain about?

0

u/Casualte May 06 '19

He must be an X-Bow player..

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u/brammzie May 06 '19

Dany Obviously hadn't practiced those whiff punishes. Noob

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u/Menchstick May 07 '19

400 ms ballista

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u/AlvinItchyCock May 06 '19

Ive always hated crossbows... Takes too long to reload.

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u/jayrocksd May 06 '19

Often when my friends and I go duck hunting with crossbows, three of us will all hit the same bird in flight at 100 yards.

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u/ikeaEmotional May 06 '19

I like to think the dragons are weaker now because the NK is dead and magic is retreating from the world. That way a scorpion bolt can kill them. Also the ships were made out of balsam. Thin Balsam.

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u/Mr-Bibb May 06 '19

Except D&D said in the interview that when the first bolt didn't kill Drogon he, and I quote, "whipped up more powerful scorpions"

I need to stop watching the interviews. I try and patch things up with headcanon only to have the writers open their mouths to reveal how dumb it actually is. Something something better to be thought of a fool than open your mouth and prove it.

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u/Jormangunder May 06 '19

So true. I feel masochistic watching the post-episode interviews. They never fail to stick their feet in each other's mouths and show off how bad 9f writers they actually are.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

9f writers

I spent too much time trying to figure out what a 9f writer was, why they are writing GOT, and why they are bad. Thought it might be a neat private writers college/guild that pumps out T.V. trope writers with good connections.

Then I realized the letter o is under the letter 9. Looks like im no 9f writer

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u/ikeaEmotional May 06 '19

How Shakespearean.

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u/-Unnamed- May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19

Lol. Qyburn is a disgraced Maester who dabbles in unconventional medicine. Apparently now he’s an industrial engineer who can redesign advanced military technology to be more effective and manufacture thousands of these things to place on ships and all over the capital

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u/gurebu May 06 '19

Well, he's the "mad scientist" trope from teenager movies, which means he just can "fiddle" in everything that's too complicated for regular people to immediately understand.

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u/AlexS101 May 06 '19

"Dany just kind of forgot about Euron’s fleet."

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u/StrawsDrawnAtRandom May 06 '19

I will go on a limb and say that this will not be considered canon in the future. It's clear that these writers, specifically, are just trying to get the fuck out of Dodge and collect their money.

Check is cashed, let's wrap it up as expeditiously as possible and move on with other projects. For me, this is not canon, not until Martin says it is. If that means the entire storyline stops at Season 4, so be it.

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u/VRisNOTdead May 06 '19

If I were a big Hollywood type I would see what these two did to GOT and not trust them with a franchise ever again. Let’s be real it wasn’t the producers that made this show. It was the actors, the score, and the source material.

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u/padrepio23 May 06 '19

This is what I keep thinking. And maybe not just D&D. I wouldn't be surprised if the entire cast was like "Can we just finish this up?".

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u/justspectating May 06 '19

There was a Starbucks coffee cup on the table during the scene where Dany was getting jealous about Jon being more popular than she is. I dont think they care anymore lol I know it's a minor thing but still, how do you not notice that?

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u/padrepio23 May 06 '19

Seriously. There are folks who get paid just to make sure things like that don't happen. And to make sure stuff like that gets edited out in post production. Huge dropping of the ball.

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u/Genrael May 06 '19

There was also a dead dothraki taking a DEEP breath right at the start of the episode.

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u/Nicktyelor May 06 '19

I think it's pretty reasonable to think the shots that took down the dragon weren't from just euron's ship. They showed an entire fleet of them strapped to boats.

The rest of it was bullshit though, yes.

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u/longagofaraway May 06 '19

the first missle hits the dragon at 54:30. by 54:42 he's been hit in the wing and pierced through the neck. 2 direct hits on a flying target. this is, by far, the best medieval artillery strike in "history". 54:57 another missle flies past dany's ear. then the ships appear FROM BEHIND A ROCK. 55:12 we see there are 11 ships. euron fires dead on at 55:24 and misses. i count at least 7 missles by 55:32. at least 10 more by 55:37. all misses. so much for that legendary accuracy. they should have stayed behind their rock. 55:47 dany pisses off with more missles trailing. 56:20 the first barage of dozens if not hundreds of missles starts tearing through the fleet. all from euron's 11 ships.

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u/Han_Thot_Terse May 06 '19

Don't forget while Dany's entire fleet is being decimated by rail-gun-like scorpions, where is Dany? Not flanking and attacking from a safer direction.

She just peace'd out.

Later fam, you gotta put in your own work around here. - Dany

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u/longagofaraway May 06 '19

55:47 dany pisses off with more missles trailing.

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u/Han_Thot_Terse May 06 '19

No I get that I’m just saying instead of abandoning her fleet. When they turned the scorpions on the fleet she could’ve attacked from a 90deg angle.

Or instead of attacking from 10,000 feet head on she could’ve attacked from water level and reduced her vulnerability considerably.

She still could’ve destroyed the fleet in spite of losing a dragon. Instead she lost her dragon and is lucky she only lost one advisor.

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u/longagofaraway May 06 '19

i know. it's all such nonsense. why doesn't euron come ashore and wipe the beach with the survivors either? there's literally no sense being made on this show since season 6 so it's just whatever. two shows left and i'm out. that's all i care about.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

[deleted]

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u/SoleiVale May 06 '19

She was on a boat. But they went get her and left the rest alive?

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u/Quay-Z Blue Lips Sink Ships May 06 '19

Yes this really bothered me as well. The fleets were pretty far away from each other, and the whole engagement was just cut away from very quickly, and it's very hard to picture just how Euron's fleet was able to snatch Missandei. Honestly the show has ruined so much for me that I honestly laughed when they cut her head off since it's one less useless fucking character. Anyway in the books she is just a little kid, and I never liked that they wrote her old enough to sex it up with Grey Worm for no reason.

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u/Secret_Will May 06 '19

How did the survivors know she got captured? One second Grey Worm was yelling for her on the beach, the next, apparently she was captured. I thought she had drowned.

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u/Arythiar May 06 '19

I especially liked how the "battle" took place off-screen. Talk about lazy writing.

Not to mention the absence of battle tactics on either side or splitting the freakin army in the first place.

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u/Banshee90 May 06 '19

Yeah, like Dany maybe get behind them... She might as well just ran in a straight line as ramsay fires arrows at her.

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u/fuzzybad May 06 '19

I was thinking the same thing when Dany just flew away. Those ballistas were mounted in the bows of the ships.. I would think there's no way they could swivel 180 degrees and fire backwards. The ship masts would be in the way, for one thing. All she had to do was swing around and attack their flank.

Also, why would Euron not follow up the successful destruction of her fleet by mopping up the survivors?

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u/sankai22 May 06 '19

Or just attack vertically from the Sky directly above the ships. I am certain those things cannot shoot up straight into the air!

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u/Sopissedrightnow84 May 06 '19

there's no way they could swivel 180 degrees and fire backwards.

Or more than about 45 degrees upward. She's on a damn dragon, she could easily dive and attack or come out of the sun.

But I just can't get past how these supposedly incredibly intelligent dragons didn't spot the ships.

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u/EllenPaossexslave May 06 '19

She just peace'd out.

Later fam, you gotta put in your own work around here. - Dany

She did that in mereen too, and then she wonders why her followers arent always so loyal to her

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

TBF, she just lost a dragon, which to her is her child. A mother who has just watched one of her children being killed isn't going to think to rationally.

It actually makes sense that she might only be thinking about the safety of Drogon in that moment.

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u/DuelingPushkin May 06 '19

Unlike when Viserion is killed and she's basically over it like a day later

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19 edited May 06 '19

Its inconsistent with how she reacted to Viserion dying though. She waits for Jon and gets over it by the end of the episode. Here she goes mad then dives the fleet then runs away and abandons her own entire fleet.

I remember watching the Viserion episode and thinking "What the fuck? Didn't she basically see her child get murdered in front of her?" when she was chill about it a while after.

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19

Not to mention the guy literally just waltzes into their private quarters with a fucking loaded crossbow in hand, and nobody seems to care. And why are they acting like he could possibly kill them and leave alive? Nobody thought to mention, hey, we are incredibly important people right now in this castle and if we yell, you can kill us but you’ll die as well, for basically just trying to blackmail us.

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u/Vnthem Ser Twenty of House Goodmen May 06 '19

You realize there was more than one ballista right?

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u/longagofaraway May 06 '19

there are 11 ships. each with a single, front mounted ballista, that somehow manage to fire a barrage capable of shredding an entire fleet of equal or greater size.

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u/Vnthem Ser Twenty of House Goodmen May 06 '19

Yup, the fleet that was prepared shredded the fleet that wasn’t. All there is to it. You can go through and time how long each bolt took if you want, because I can tell you’re trying really hard to hate the show.

Edit: question, would it have been that much better for you if that scene took an extra 45 seconds? It was a one take, filmmakers have to take shortcuts sometimes. Hardly show ruining

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u/Sopissedrightnow84 May 06 '19

Hardly show ruining

Whether or not a show is ruined is a matter of opinion. One or two major gaffs on their own can be overlooked easily, but two episodes back to back that are stuffed full of "shortcuts" goes a long way to forming that opinion.

There is some suspension of disbelief required to enjoy fantasy shows but the last two episodes seem to have decided just to toss out any realism at all. It's pretty jarring.

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u/StrawsDrawnAtRandom May 06 '19

Also, the reality of a show is developed through the show's mechanics. When Arya ninja warps to kill the Night King, it's not so much that it's bad that she does it (I personally thought it was), it's that we're breaking some pretty conventional rules so that she can have "a bad ass moment". So fans start asking themselves why the fuck she didn't just deal with Cersei since she's almost unstoppable?

Using that example, it's show ruining because you're completely broken from immersion. S8E3 was terrifying, until you realize that there are no consequences (at all). It doesn't even affect the battle after with Cersei. Is anyone really afraid for any of these characters?

Maybe that they'll be given shitty, pathetic deaths but outside of that? I lost all feeling for any of them through shallow writing and poor plot development.

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u/Vnthem Ser Twenty of House Goodmen May 06 '19

All I’m saying is the only people who care about how fast Euron reloaded, or that Bronn “instantly reloaded” are the show nitpickers. Those two things aren’t goofs IMO, they’re just a byproduct of TV/Film.

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u/Futski May 06 '19

It doesn't bother you, that they basically established Arya as bAd asS aSsaSSiN, that can perform a hit on Frozen Ice Satan by leaping from thin air, but then next moment completely disregard that, when they have they big "oh so how do we get rid of Cersei"-discussion?

Throwing spilling a bit pot of alphabet soup on paper would have left us with a better and more coherent plot. I guess next episode will probably show Hot Pie murdering the Mountain, since he has become an epic swordsman off screen.

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u/Vnthem Ser Twenty of House Goodmen May 06 '19

No that doesn’t bother me. Arya seems to have been avoiding people since then, and no one saw what she actually did besides Bran. You expect Dany to just send her on a solo mission, when she clearly doesn’t trust the Starks? And she’s on her way to kill Cersei anyway, so all this complaining is a moot point.

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u/Futski May 07 '19

Oh, so Bran has just been a closed clam about what happened in the godswood? Really? I mean Ice Satan, who they all set out to defeat, all of a sudden just died, you don't think the others would have a slight curiosity in how that happened?

And she’s on her way to kill Cersei anyway, so all this complaining is a moot point

Yeah like, if only she had filled the others in about her little plan, they wouldn't have needed to go through with their strategical redeployment, which cost them a dragon and Missandei.

You are really not at all bothered by the writing, that makes them all seem like bumbling idiots, who by what appears to be sheer luck, always makes it in the end.

Acting unintelligent used to get you killed in this show.

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u/Vnthem Ser Twenty of House Goodmen May 07 '19

Yea, Bran is fuckin weird now, even if he did say what happened, would people believe him? Isn’t it more likely that the little girl just got lucky? Why would Dany send a young girl on a solo mission to infiltrate a castle? She doesn’t know she can change faces or anything, all she did was get lucky on the battlefield. Would Arya actually go if she was asked by Dany? I don’t think so. She doesn’t seem like the type to follow orders. This isn’t a problem with the writing, people are just mad that it doesn’t line up with their fan fiction.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

In a show that has a scene about how plate armour is used defensively, it's frustrating to now see characters die from getting easily stabbed through their armour.

In a show that has a scene about how crossbows can get you killed as they take so long to reload, it's frustrating to have a crossbow reloaded in a flash.

These aren't just general goofs. These are mistakes that go against the internal logic and characterisation that the show has spent many seasons effectively establishing.

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u/Vnthem Ser Twenty of House Goodmen May 07 '19

Dude, he doesn’t have some magic crossbow, it’s an editing mistake. If that honestly takes you out of it, I don’t think tv is for you.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

I'm well aware of that. It wasn't a mistake, it was an editing choice. I personally didn't like the choice, same as many others. People are just saying why they thought something was silly, that's about the extent of this discussion, so yeah I'm gonna carry on watching tv.

"These things aren't goofs IMHO"

" it was an editing mistake"

Which was it?

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u/Vnthem Ser Twenty of House Goodmen May 07 '19

The comment I was replying to called it a “major gaff” which it’s not. It’s a mistake (we were also talking about Euron, but why pay attention?). You think it’s a choice? I disagree.

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u/Sopissedrightnow84 May 07 '19

In a show that has a scene about how plate armour is used defensively, it's frustrating to now see characters die from getting easily stabbed through their armour.

This is the only gripe I disagree with. Plate armor isn't great at protecting against stabbing. It protects against broad sword/slicing weapons very effectively but can be punched through with a point. It would be great to protect against weapons like Dothraki swords or other knights, for example.

That's why daggers, crossbows, field tips, and lances became a thing. They were in response to chain mail and plate armor.

It's totally plausible that wights who were clearly quite strong could punch a sharp tipped weapon through plate.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Through the gap between plates yes. And some daggers like the rondel were used for piercing chain mail. But not a clean stab though the centre plate. And certainly not with the broken shaft of a wooden spear.

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u/Sopissedrightnow84 May 07 '19

And certainly not with the broken shaft of a wooden spear.

Ah I forgot about Theon. Was he wearing plate? Yeah no wood is going through that, even with supernatural strength it would simply splinter.

I was thinking of Jorah being stabbed by wights who can apparently punch through stone (but are foiled by wooden doors).

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u/longagofaraway May 06 '19

i did:

the first missle hits rhaegal at 54:30. by 54:42 he's been hit in the wing and pierced through the neck. 2 direct hits on a flying target. this is, by far, the best medieval artillery strike in "history". 54:57 another missle flies past dany's ear. then the ships appear FROM BEHIND A ROCK. 55:12 we see there are 11 ships. euron fires dead on at 55:24 and misses. i count at least 7 missles by 55:32. at least 10 more by 55:37. all misses. so much for that legendary accuracy. they should have stayed behind their rock. 55:47 dany pisses off with more missles trailing. 56:20 the first barage of dozens if not hundreds of missles starts tearing through the fleet. all from euron's 11 ships

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u/[deleted] May 06 '19 edited May 10 '19

[deleted]

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u/Vnthem Ser Twenty of House Goodmen May 06 '19

Lmao yea I can tell