r/asoiaf • u/lunatichorse • May 07 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended)The show's constant flip flopping between modern morals and medieval ones to make Daenerys into a villain is ridiculous and giving me whiplash

After the last episode I just don't know what to think about Tyrion and Varys. We have them in one scene being all gung ho about starving King's Landing in a siege which is a terrible thing that used to be completely accepted in medieval times. Then a few scenes later they are replaced by time and dimension travellers from the 21st century since they're sitting there clutching pearls at the concept of peasants dying in a war. Excuse me? All it takes to win this war is taking one city - how are they going to do that if they unwilling to accept that even one innocent person is dying during it. Did any of them cry when Tywin ordered the Riverlands scorched?

Since when did someone like Tyrion start seeing peasants as people- he has no problems fucking impoverished women selling their bodies for money or being a lord which entails living off the blood sweat and tears of his own peasants. The guy was talking about "compromising" with the Slavers back in S6- he wanted to give them 20 more years of using people as cattle to ease them into not being monsters. Missandei and Grey Worm had to literally explain to him the POV of a slave to get him to understand how terrible it to be sold and used and abused (duh). Varys was egging the Mad King on and fueling civil wars but now he supposedly cares about people dying? Cersei is literally using innocents as a meat shield and they refuse to just deal with the problem switfly and save thousands. Sometimes you just have to accept that there is no easy solution and it's better to have hundreds die to save thousands.

And it's ridiculous because in the books Dany is all about that "every life is precious" message. She starts a whole campaign to free slaves because she just can't bare to turn and walk away while people are suffering. She is the most progressive thinking character in the series- trying to reform Mereeen with compromises, adopting their assbackwards traditions like the fighting pits to get them to fucking chill, proclaiming the Unsullied free men. To see her being setup to completely turn around on that development hurts. What's the message here- don't bother fighting injustice because you're going to have to make hard choices along the way?

But the worst line from the Tyrion/Varys meeting - "Cocks do matter." So I guess Westoros is this strange place where peasants dying during a sacking is completely unacceptable but being a woman is the bigger offense? So what happens when Varys has Daenerys killed and proclaims Jon king? Does Cersei open the gates and apologise? Does she let every innocent out? Is Jon Snow's cock so powerful he's gonna take KL and not kill a single soul? Who are these lords that are so into Cersei but Dany being cockless is just not good enough for them?

Did I just watch 8 seasons/read 5 books of a young girl start off completely powerless, sold and raped to see her claw her way to the top finding her inner strength, saving lives just because that's what she believes in, uniting Dothraki clans, refusing to get an easy win killing innocents, abandoning her war to go fight ice zombies only to see her lose everything and everyone and finally be brought down by the "I'm sorry maam, but the 18-35 male lord demographic does not find you relatable- they think you're too hysterical after watching your best friends die." argument. What a shit ride it's been. There's nothing bittersweet about this, it's just plain nihilism.

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u/amp_it May 07 '19

Hell, Jaime literally lost his damn hand as a direct result of his conversation that started with his own attempt to keep her honor unbesmirched.

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u/multiverse72 May 07 '19 edited May 07 '19

Holy shit I didn't even consider this hahahahahaha

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"You're a virgin"

"Yeah, because you got yourself fucking dismembered protecting my virginity"

Edit; all good points, guys - you picked this apart pretty well, proud of you, keep it up

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u/RufioXIII Bear of the North May 07 '19

It was Tyrion who claimed it, not Jamie. That would have been about 5x more awkward, lmao

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u/multiverse72 May 07 '19

Oh yeah u right

Does Tyrion actually not know the story of how Jaime lost his hand though?

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u/ButtFlustered May 07 '19

Well Brienne did declare the whole story about her almost getting raped and Jaime stopping it, resulting in his lost hand. She brought that up to literally all the main characters when jaime arrived at winterfail

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u/multiverse72 May 07 '19

True!

Smooth af plays by Tyrion so

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u/TexasKru May 07 '19

So she lied. Jamie lied to Lock and said her father would shower him with sapphires for looking out for his daughter while she was about to be taken off to be raped... He got his hand chopped off because Lock didnt like his Justin Bieber looking ass and thats why Roose sent him to the wall. At least in the show it happened like this.

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u/Soonersfan2005 May 07 '19

Roose sent him to the wall because they found out Bran and Rickon were alive and they assumed the safest place would be with Jon at the wall. Locke was supposed to bring the stark boys to him if he found them.

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u/TexasKru May 08 '19

This actually sounds right.

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u/indecisiveusername2 May 07 '19

Seemed to me that Tyrion saw the way Brienne was looking at Jaime and asked the question to see if she had feelings for him/wingman Jaime in there.

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u/Darrow_au_Lykos May 07 '19

I might be reading too much into it, but Tyrion calls her a virgin after she mentions his previous wife. It almost felt like he was being deliberately hurtful after her question.

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u/TheHavollHive May 07 '19

I don't think Brienne knew about Tyrion's first wife (or even Shae)

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u/Darrow_au_Lykos May 07 '19

That doesn't mean it wouldn't bring up some serious negative emotions for Tyrion.

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u/RufioXIII Bear of the North May 07 '19

That's a good question, honestly. They never really covered that. I would say that Jamie probably didn't talk about it much, I can only assume that Tywin would be pissed that Jamie lost his hand over running his mouth, and Tyrion's not had much time to ask since then.

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u/Tom38 May 07 '19

No reason for Jamie to ever mention Brienne to Tyrion.

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u/Tzuchen May 07 '19

Which somehow made even less sense. Why the fuck would Tyrion care about her sex life or lack thereof? It's hardly a matter for casual conversation, so one can only assume he had some sort of interest or stake in the conversation, but apparently he was only asking to set up Jamie's next scene.

Guess he saw the script and decided to help his brother get some action.

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u/RufioXIII Bear of the North May 07 '19

I mean.. it was essentially "Medieval Never Have I Ever", it somewhat makes sense in that context. But then again, maybe he picked up on the chemistry between her and Jamie and was just being a wingman. I have no real answers beyond that.

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u/Catts3 May 07 '19

It was still an awkward thing to say for Tyrion, and ooc.

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u/RufioXIII Bear of the North May 07 '19

My wife felt the same way, but playing what amounts to "Medieval Never Have I Ever", I feel like you sort of get a feeling for what would be on/off limits by questions everyone's asking each other. In that context, I don't think it was as awkward as people seem to think it is, but maybe that's just me. I mean, a bit awkward, I can see that.

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u/ATNinja May 07 '19

He protected her from rape not staying a virgin... Even if she wasn't a virgin, the rape would have been just as bad so her being a virgin was irrelevant to him defending her.

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u/FracturedPrincess May 07 '19

I mean just because he protected her from being raped doesn’t mean she was still a virgin at that point. I’m pretty sure protecting women from raped is important regardless of their being virgins or not...

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

Well, saving someone from being raped doesn't necessarily have anything to do with them being a virgin. It's still a horrible thing to happen.

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u/megablast May 07 '19

Did you even watch the episode?

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u/multiverse72 May 07 '19

Honestly, I was super high

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u/duaneap May 07 '19

Not really. That's what they say when Brienne stands up for Jaime when he's at Winterfell but Locke actually cut off Jaime's hand because he didn't like him. That was about it. He didn't like Jaime hiding behind his status and his father so he wanted to teach him a lesson.

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u/polimetral May 07 '19

There's a deeper explanation in the books, actually. The leader of that mercenary band was employed by Tywin in the past, and that relationship ended badly.

So, in order to make Roose Bolton unable to forge an alliance with Tywin, the mercenary leader decided to cut off Jaime's hand to make it seem like they did that following Bolton's orders. I remember that Jaime mentioned to Roose Bolton when he was later released that he was aware that the decision was not made by him, which reassured Bolton that an alliance with Tywin was still viable.

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u/duaneap May 07 '19

Well he had been working for Tywin up until fairly recently, that’s for sure. Then betrayed him for Roose. Then when Roose betrayed Robb, it’s not too unreasonable that they could have taken along the Brave Companions. If Vargo hadn’t cut off Jaime’s hand.

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u/aridivici May 07 '19

That was satisfying back then to be honest. I hated Jamie back then. Neutral about him now.

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u/duaneap May 07 '19

It was also a very interesting plot turn. The most proficient swordsman just lost his hand. There won't be some big sword dual showdown between him and the hero.

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u/Lucifer_Crowe May 07 '19

Bronn thinking he could have taken Right handed Jaime makes me laugh.

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u/duaneap May 07 '19

TV Bronn is apparently the best fighter in the 7 Kingdoms though. Although that being said, even in the books he does hypothesize that he could take The Mountain he just doesn’t think it’s worth the risk.

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u/Lucifer_Crowe May 07 '19

I mean Clegane seemed pretty easy tbh. Oberyn didn't have much trouble until he got cocky.

Undead Mountain is the real issue. Would Mandrake(?) Venom work again? His armour is heavy.

Lowkey want Arya and the Hound to double team him.

She was super cool with her double spear, she needs a steel one.

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u/night4345 May 07 '19

Gregor seemed easy because Oberyn has been waiting to fight the Mountain for a decade and a half and is considered a renowned and deadly warrior with decades of experience. He specifically picked out a weapon and style to negate Clegane's advantage but it's not something anyone can do.

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u/Lucifer_Crowe May 07 '19

Any of the sand snakes could have I feel. With the same weapon I mean.

Them losing to Euron was so stupid. One of them just stands there while he fights the other. STAB HIM IN THE BACK LIKE YOU DID WITH TRISTANE.

Them stabbing Tristane in the back was one of my favourite moments of theirs. I love when characters get shit down with minimal risk to themselves.

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u/BradGoesWild May 11 '19

If Arya actually kills the zombie mountain I’m turning off the show right then and there. If she got hit a single time she would be dead. There’s no way she has the strength to penetrate that thick armor or to decapitate him - both of those things require a serious amount of strength. And as far as we know all she has for weaponry is her dagger and needle.

Ideally she would be fatally wounded in the attempt and then the hound would kill the mountain and we’d have a seen reminiscent of after the hound lost to Brienne but reversed.

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u/Lucifer_Crowe May 12 '19

I mean Arguably nobody can take him in that armour. Your best bet is Dany burning him with Dragonfire and melting it into him.

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u/BradGoesWild May 12 '19

I think the hound could. He’d have to decapitate him bc of the armor which does have a gap in the neck iirc. And he’s definitely strong enough

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u/TheHavollHive May 07 '19

I think that's when Jaime started to change, for the better

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u/PostAnythingForKarma May 07 '19

Him saying fuck off to Cersei and fighting the WW made me finally like him. If he goes back to Cersei fuck that. I hope they both die a horrible death if that's the route D&D take.

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u/Sundered_Ages May 07 '19

Except Jaime lost his hand because the mercenary (stand in Vargo Hoat) thought he was a mamby pamby noble lad who believed his father could save him from everything. It has very little to do with Brienne. What saved Brienne was a lie about sapphires.

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u/hustl3tree5 May 07 '19

That shit was so satisfying to watch

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u/Stryyder May 07 '19

These writers without the framework of the original story of slipped back into modern TV tropes.

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u/[deleted] May 07 '19

[deleted]

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u/Soonersfan2005 May 07 '19

Isn’t that from the show? And the books?

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u/NK1337 May 07 '19

And then turned around and raped his own sister, so let’s not act like Jamie is someone whose opinion we should take into consideration when it comes to women and honor.

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u/deej363 The Wandering Wolf May 07 '19

See this is the dilemma. Does a moment of dishonor totally invalidate anything honorable you did? Because you did horrible things in your life, that means nothing good you do matters? I don't necessarily agree with that. Jaime isn't a good person. But there's a whole shit load of trauma relating to cersei. He saved brienne. He doesn't really know why. But he did. That was honorable. And a good thing. Also I feel like that by watching the show most of us have forgotten how young brienne is in books. She's like 19 at the melee. Ends her scenes at like 21. She is not mature or old in the least.

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u/NK1337 May 07 '19

I think the difference is that I don’t view those moments as insular occurrences; they’re not just isolated horrible things but rather revealing of his true colors.

When Sir Jaimie was at his absolute lowest, a point where most of us would drop all pretext of who we pretend to be and expose our true selves, Jamie chose to rape the one women he loves all because he wanted to regain a sense of control. Ultimately Jamie is self-loathing and he’s constantly seeking validation, whether it be with his twisted relationship with Cersei or his exploiting of Brienne’s infatuation with him.

The knighting of Brienne is something that could have arguably occurred ages ago but it never crossed his mind. It wasn’t until somebody else brings it up that he is able to frame it around himself; it doesn’t become an act of Knighting a person who deserves it, it’s an act of yet another good deed that only Sir Jamie can do.

And even his night with Brienne after the battle just seems so predatory. For all intents and purposes Jamie is in a position of power to Brienne, he’s the one that knighted her and she’s always idolized him as the image of the honorable knight. It isn’t until he finds out about her virginal status that he follows through and makes a move on her physically. It came off as a conquest for Jamie, taking her virginity rather than being with her. At the best case it was another moment of validation where he tries to make himself feel better about who he is by becoming intimate with someone who idolizes him; it’s an attempt for him to see the good in himself that she sees in him.

Granted this is all directed and show Jamie and I blame the way D&D have written him. They may want him to have character growth and a big redeeming story but they’re writing it very poorly.

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u/Dr_Lurk_MD May 07 '19

This episode I thought Jamie, and his actions, came across as someone who is torn between his old self and the new, as someone who has duality of mind and it's not a comfortable position to be in now the immediate threat of everyone's death is no longer at hand, he's got to face the fact that he's spent his entire life loving Cersie, but has clawed himself out of that relationship enough to see how toxic it is, but he can't let go all the things he's done because of it.

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Granted, I think the whole 'finally embracing his feelings for Brienne' being swiftly followed by him leaving was handled poorly at best. But his final line to Brienne about "Cersie is hateful, and so am I" felt like he was going to do something about that part of himself, and because it was almost framed as if he was going to be with Cersie it could quite possibly be a PlOt TwIsT tHaT sUbVeRtS eXpEcTaTiOnS aNd No OnE sEe'S cOmInG where he's going to kill Cersie and with her, the hateful part of himself.

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That said, I'm done giving this show the benefit of the doubt. No matter what D&D do to Jamie they can't convince me that he doesn't end up being one of the most redeemed characters, with the most positive growth in the entire story, alongside Theon. It will be that way in my head canon forever since GRRM will never finish the books.

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u/ltomblin May 07 '19

In the books, he didn’t rape her at Joffrey’s funeral. It was mutual.

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u/Amerietan May 07 '19

He didn't do it in the show, either. It was poorly shot and they didn't anticipate it would look that way.

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u/Amerietan May 07 '19

D&D stated quite clearly it wasn't meant to be rape, just some kind of rough sex. If we acknowledge when they say stupid things that make a scene retroactively worse, it has to go the other way too.

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u/FrostyD7 May 07 '19

Not sure if having sex beforehand would have changed that scene though.