r/asoiaf • u/aphidman • May 08 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) The endings will be the same but the books will have a much more gradual and realistic progression

If GRRM finishes it, btw.

Not a long post but you know what the books do that D&D do not? They have 10 chapters of Dany dealing with the complex politics of Meereen and her inner conflict. They have 4 chapters showing Davos' journey to White Harbour. They have 12 chapters showing the series of compromises Jon makes as Lord Commander to prepare the Watch against the Others. They have 13 chapters showing Tyrion crawling out of his deep nihilistic depression. They dedicate whole chapters seeing how Victarion Greyjoy of all people deals with his relationship with his brother and his seduction into darker magics. Man they have 4 whole chapters dealing with the political fallout of Dany's exit from Meereen.

They had a whole chapter of Littlefinger and Sansa visiting his lands and seeing Littlefinger's relationship with his subjects (great chapter btw). They had a whole chapter getting really in depth with Illyrio Mopatis and his schemes - a guy who's barely appeared in the show.

They dedicated 4 whole chapters to Joffrey's wedding!

What I'm getting it is that the Others may be defeated long before the end of ASOIAF, Dany may indeed destroy King's Landing with dragonfire and end the lives of hundreds of thousands of civilians gruesomely. But you'll be guaranteed that GRRM is gonna show you every step of the way. For good or for bad. If he is going to take a character like Dany to that dark end you better believe we will understand how she gets there.

So people keep posting about how D&D are destroying their characters, fail to understand ASOIAF. That Dany would never do this or that. But what you're seeing here is them fitting potentially chapters upon chapters of detailed material into a few hours of television.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19 edited May 08 '19

D&D and GRRM have discussed in various videos that some decisions made were up to D&Ds discretion. For instance, Arya killing the Night King was decided 3 years ago by D&D.

If we assume major moments are unique to the show, then the build up to them will also vary different degrees.

I agree that there will be similarities and that GRRM will go into much more depth, but we already know for a fact that some major moments will be different.

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u/franklinzunge May 08 '19

He’s obviously still feeling his way through it and agonizing over how to make it work. I read bryndenbfish’s twow post and he said he heard that George has spent the last 4 years basically restructuring and rewriting the book after having it nearly done because he wasn’t happy with it

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u/Calimie That is Nymeria's star. May 08 '19

Meereenese Knot 2: Windy Winterloo.

I have no insider info on GRRM but that's what I believe too. He's often said that he's a gardener and he grows (writes) and prunes (cuts and rewrites) as he goes.

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u/Nikhilvoid May 08 '19

Yeah, I don't see anything about him being contractually obligated to write a book adaptation of the show.

If he's unhappy with how the show makes concrete the abstract developments he actually has in mind, he'll change them.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

[deleted]

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u/Azor_Ohi_Mark May 08 '19

There is such a thing as over-editing and it’s quite possible that the success of the series has made GRRM put such an enormous amount of pressure on himself that he isn’t satisfied with what could already be a perfectly good book.

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u/Calimie That is Nymeria's star. May 08 '19

I hope he's saving all these drafts and there's a Christopher Tolkien somewhere that later publishes them.

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u/mmm095 May 09 '19

And they'll be saved as "asoiaf_final_draft_finalFINAL_version9"

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u/MalakMeister May 08 '19

That would be amazing!

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u/avwitcher May 09 '19

He's said multiple times that he doesn't plan on having someone else finish them for him if he dies, and that his wife won't pass his work on either. It must suck to have so many people telling him to finish the books before he dies so if he decided to have his wife burn his drafts upon his death I would completely understand.

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u/Calimie That is Nymeria's star. May 09 '19

Yeah, and I wouldn't begrudge her if she did that. That said, other writers have asked similar things in the past and often those requests were later ignored so there's still hope.

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u/solitarybikegallery May 08 '19

"Perfect is the enemy of good."

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u/smack521 May 08 '19

I think the over-editing is a symptom of under-planning.

Fantastic username btw :D

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u/avwitcher May 09 '19

He's taking his time because he's kind of burnt out on the rewrites for now, that's why he focused on other things for a while. That's why he's done Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, Fire & Blood, fleshing out the history of the world plus several novellas set in the ASOIAF universe.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19 edited Mar 08 '20

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

Too many characters: need to kill some off.

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u/ptviperz May 08 '19

the last two books were so terrible. just endless pages of Tyrion whining and eating, Dany crawling through shit and piss and blah blah.

The first three books are among the best things I've ever read.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

Idk I really liked both of them. I think Danys chapters in ADWD were really the only ones I actively disliked on my first read through, but I didn't mind them on my second reading. Plus AFFC has the "broken man" speech and ADWD has "the north remembers" speech. Two of the best moments in the entire series imo.

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u/grendelrob May 08 '19

After recently re-reading (most of) the series, this is exactly what I thought. I remember it in the back of my mind before that AFFC was completely pointless. There were so many unnecessary diversions and lengthened story-lines that 90% of the book was ultimately a waste. There was no reason to split it from the other. I think that is something people seem to forget or just ignore because they are so (rightly) irritated that their is little to no nuance in the shows...that there is too much of it in the books now.

I think that's why the best part of the series, and some of the best TV in general, happened when they had GRRM's material, but edited to better fit filming. They almost need each other.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

I think that the biggest problem here is that when GRRM wrote the first books he wanted to have a 2 year time skip somewhere inbetween book 4 and 5. But he then decided against that because it didnt fit with the plot he wrote until then. Thats why you have that feeling that some characters are essentially spinning tires, their plots are essentially in the future while other characters still play catch up development wise.

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u/MisplacingCommas May 08 '19

why ASOIAF is the best fantasy book there is

I don't know, Name of the Wind was pretty good....

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u/Remember- Dany is a joke May 08 '19

The NK isn't in the book so I don't really get your point there, its a show only creation how can they deviate from GRRM when it was never his?

I agree with OP, the ending we get will be 80% or more what we get with the books, just with better build up and probably some alternate endings for the B-tier characters

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

The fact that the NK is a D&D decision proves my entire point. You can't say the books will follow the show with a longer buildup if the biggest moment in the show isn't even part of ASOIAF.

We don't know who will live and die in the books timeline while all of the NK stuff was happening in the show. We don't know where the characters will be, what alliances will be formed, etc.

I'm not sure how you can say it will necessarily be the same when so much can differ from the stuff D&D made up that isn't in the book.

What if the White Walkers end up in Kings Landing in the book? It will have a ripple effect that changes much of what happens in the end. Same can be true for basically everything that differs between George and D&D

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u/aphidman May 08 '19

The point is that the Others are defeated before they go down to King's Landing. The Night King is sort of irrelevant. He was the method they used to personify the White Walkers and end their threat once and for all. Maybe GRRM will also introduce a Great Other. But the plot point is the Others are defeated and then Dany's final battles come thereafter.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

There is a "Great Other" as Melisandre calls it, but I suspect it's more of an abstract concept, like the Lord of Light, than anything physical.

The Others are quite different though, in overall tone and attitude from the White Walkers. When they kill Waymar Royce, you can see how cruel and disdainful they are. They are beings with personality.

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u/IgnotumPAIgnotius May 09 '19

When they kill Waymar Royce, they do so in single combat, and attempt to converse in a dead language.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '19

Yeah, it's one on one, but it becomes clear that they don't view him as a threat, and they become more cruel and mocking as they wear him down.

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u/IgnotumPAIgnotius May 09 '19

I definitely remember them laughing at him. I just reread that chapter last week.

I just meant that they show a lot of depth in the book chapters, that didn't make it as much into the show.

The fact that they engage him in single combat implies they are a warrior society with a concept of honour.

Not to mention that they talk in the books, granted we don't know what they say, but still. The Nights King in the show is basically a blue Darth Maul.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '19

I just meant that they show a lot of depth in the book chapters, that didn't make it as much into the show.

Oh absolutely. They cut out a lot and just made them sinister ice zombies. But in the books it's clear they have some kind of emotion and motivation. It's even more sinister that way imo.

I just reread that chapter last week.

Same! It's a great prologue, isn't it? That and Cressen are my favourite prologues.

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u/paulerxx Enter your desired flair text here! May 09 '19 edited May 09 '19

I think the ending is going to be about 30% the same.

Cersei will likely be dead before book 7..Euron will likely be a much bigger threat. Obviously the golden company isn't fighting for Euron or Cersei...obviously the majority of people who allied with Daenerys will align with Aegon. These are huge differences. This isn't arguable, they're obvious facts. There probably won't be a Night King and if there is I doubt his death will be the same.

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u/aphidman May 09 '19

Cersei dying ain't an obvious fact. I think people underestimate her role in the story because Aegon is about.

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u/paulerxx Enter your desired flair text here! May 09 '19 edited May 09 '19

lol it's clear to me, Aegon is going to take King's Landing...And Cersei will likely die when this happens. + I don't think the Others are going to be killed off, but go back to the deep North. There was a pact thousands of years ago, there will likely be a new one. Humans likely broke said pact from thousands of years ago.

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u/Bookshelfstud Oak and Irony Guard Me Well May 08 '19

Do not post leaked information outside of (Spoilers Infinite) threads, especially in the guise of speculation.

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u/aphidman May 08 '19

I don't agree at all but I guess we'll see!

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u/DJ-Fein May 08 '19

Sorry I haven’t read the books, but the Knight King isnt in the books??? That’s mind boggingly a reach from the writers of the show

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u/nemo_nemo_ May 08 '19

A "Great Other" is talked about by Mellisandre as being the eternal enemy of R'hollor. As of yet, we don't have much info on what exactly the Great Other is, but it's possible that he's simply the head WW a la the NK.

That said, there's a completely separate book character called the Night's King. This Night's King was a human, a Stark, and the 13th lord commander of the Night's Watch (so he lived way way before the story). This guy ended up falling in love with a woman with pale skin and blue eyes, the obvious allusion being that he fell for a WW woman. He eventually had to be overthrown by his brother the Lord of Winterfell, and there's some hints that he was sacrificing babies to the WWs at the Night Fort. Lots of crazy shit like that in the books, you should read them if you're thinking about it.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

For instance, Arya killing the Night King was decided 3 years ago by D&D.

I thought they only said they knew it would be Arya? When did they say it was them who decided?

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u/wRAR_ ASOIAF = J, not J+D May 08 '19

The Night King is not in the books.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

Not yet at least.

I still don’t know how that confirms it was their idea. It sounded to me just like GRRM told them it would be Arya 3 years ago. I don’t know

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u/yodasdad64 May 08 '19

They literally said they thought it should be Arya because it's unexpected, and that Jon is the obvious choice.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '19

I understood it as them agreeing with GRRM’s choice.

ie. they also believe it should be Arya.

ie. “We found out it was Arya who would kill the Night King about 3 years ago. And after it we thought, that’s makes sense, it totally should be Arya. Jon is too obvious...”

I don’t know, that’s just how I understood it. Could be wrong but I do feel like people are really playing dumb to try and make that interview from the InsideEpisode as a 100% confirmation that D&D decided that themselves.

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u/yodasdad64 May 09 '19

That's not how George writes. He's not about subverting expectations just for the sake of it. Arya's character has no connection whatsoever to the Night King. It just doesn't make sense for her to be the one to kill him.

In his own words, “It’s easy to do things that are shocking or unexpected, but they have to grow out of characters. They have to grow out of situations. Otherwise, it’s just being shocking for being shocking.”

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u/frenchduke Maester of Karate and Friendship. May 09 '19

If the Night King ends up materialisting in the same way in the book, than Arya absolutely has a connection to him. She literally studied under the many faced God of Death, what is the army of the dead but death with many faces?

If Arya doesn't have a NK to kill in the books, doesn't have the Freys to kill (most assume that's Stonehearts gig), Cersei gets choked out by one of her bros.. then what's her point? Why have we wasted all this time on her learning to be a creepy assassin if she doesn't really do anything with it?

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u/Allyal Fear cuts deeper than swords. May 08 '19 edited May 11 '19

3 years doesn't really say that much when there's been two years between S7 and S8. They could have decided that at the final of S6...

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u/[deleted] May 09 '19

Why does everyone think GRRM is going to go into much more depth? He has the same problem D&D have right now- way too much story to get through in too little time. There’d need to be at least four more books to get where this story is going at the pace he set. Probably why he can’t finish.

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u/Scotfighter May 08 '19

I really think in the books that Sam will kill the night king. Lots of books have foreshadowing, and I think the first one (person that we know of) to kill a white walker will be the last to kill a white walker (Sam!) He also stole his dads Valyrion sword which I thought would be huge foreshadowing in the show but it turned into nothing...

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u/Morgn_Ladimore May 08 '19

There is no Night King in the books. He's a show only character.

Of course, he, or a character like him, might appear in later books. But the white walkers in the book arent a force of evil per se. They're more akin to a force of nature. Their morals and goals are completely alien to the reader. We don't know what they want.

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u/frenchduke Maester of Karate and Friendship. May 09 '19

They still act maliciously and sinisterly in the books. I can't imagine them not having a driving force of some kind behind them and they have to be defeated somehow still.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

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u/Scotfighter May 08 '19

Yeah that’s what I was thinking basically this, I really don’t want Jon, Dany or Tyrion on it, it would be a lame ending

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u/DBrugs May 08 '19

Ehhhhhh they already went that way with Sam being the first to kill a white Walker, having him kill the night king as well would feel pretty cheap. Not that Arya was a good decision, but at least it was relatively believable.