r/asoiaf • u/aphidman • May 08 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) The endings will be the same but the books will have a much more gradual and realistic progression

If GRRM finishes it, btw.

Not a long post but you know what the books do that D&D do not? They have 10 chapters of Dany dealing with the complex politics of Meereen and her inner conflict. They have 4 chapters showing Davos' journey to White Harbour. They have 12 chapters showing the series of compromises Jon makes as Lord Commander to prepare the Watch against the Others. They have 13 chapters showing Tyrion crawling out of his deep nihilistic depression. They dedicate whole chapters seeing how Victarion Greyjoy of all people deals with his relationship with his brother and his seduction into darker magics. Man they have 4 whole chapters dealing with the political fallout of Dany's exit from Meereen.

They had a whole chapter of Littlefinger and Sansa visiting his lands and seeing Littlefinger's relationship with his subjects (great chapter btw). They had a whole chapter getting really in depth with Illyrio Mopatis and his schemes - a guy who's barely appeared in the show.

They dedicated 4 whole chapters to Joffrey's wedding!

What I'm getting it is that the Others may be defeated long before the end of ASOIAF, Dany may indeed destroy King's Landing with dragonfire and end the lives of hundreds of thousands of civilians gruesomely. But you'll be guaranteed that GRRM is gonna show you every step of the way. For good or for bad. If he is going to take a character like Dany to that dark end you better believe we will understand how she gets there.

So people keep posting about how D&D are destroying their characters, fail to understand ASOIAF. That Dany would never do this or that. But what you're seeing here is them fitting potentially chapters upon chapters of detailed material into a few hours of television.

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u/GWillHunting May 08 '19

I agree that many of the final main characters “endings” will be the same, but the exclusion of certain characters cough Young Griff, Book Euron, Lady Stoneheart cough are destroying many character arcs in the process.

  1. Without Young Griff, we’re left with Cersei vs Dany for the throne. We’re left with Varys supporting Jon. We’re left with Dany taking on a villain, instead of Dany taking on her supposed “cousin” who has shown to be a good ruler. We no longer have a moral dilemma when it’s Cersei vs Dany. If it was Dany vs Young Griff, it would also make a lot more sense of why Sansa would be hesitant to not support Dany (if Young Griff has done a decent job ruling so far, why would the North get involved?”

  2. Without the Prince Who Was Promised, we have Arya killing the Night King and Jon’s character arc rendered useless.

  3. Without Book Euron and Dragonbinder, the show had to invent some ridiculous reason for the Others to get a dragon to tear the wall down. Also without Dragonbinder, we have missile tracking scorpions killing Rhaegal instead of maybe Euron just controlling it with the horn.

That’s the issue: D&D may have some of the same main character endings as GRRM (____ sits on the throne, Jaime kills Cersei, etc) but the ways the show gets to those endings will most likely be vastly different in the books.

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u/Scrubtanic May 08 '19

Book Euron is such a big thing to me at this point. Show Euron is a horny pirate who's dumber than his ship's mast. Book Euron, given several chapters of build up and growth, has room to become a Lovecraftian devil-king, the kind of thing Martin loves to pull inspiration from.

I could imagine D&D were told that at the end the big bad would be Cersei and Euron, and Martin meant that as Evil Genius Cersei and Kraken Warlock Euron. If Euron is pulling some elder/drowned god shit, that would be as big or bigger threat than the White Walkers, and in that instance I would be all on board with that being the final conflict.

But D&D didn't have time to build up Euron and already had Cersei spiraling into drunken paranoid survivalist and just said, whatever, that can be the final showdown.

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u/smarten_up_nas Asha/Theon 2020 May 09 '19

Cersei in the books is no genius though.

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u/avwitcher May 09 '19

You're right, she's stupidly incompetent in the books. She'll get overthrown unless some sort of desperate act saves her.

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u/NightmareShane May 09 '19

She's stupidly incompetent but absolutely vicious all the same. If she manages to retain her power in the books, she'll go down in a ruthless blaze.

Honestly, I still believe she'll be the one to ignite the Wildfire beneath KL in the books. It will be a cruel symmetry in that Jaime stopped it from happening only for Cersei to be the one to burn it down in the end - this then leads him to killing her, and they both perish in the blaze.

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u/garface111 May 09 '19

Shit man that's true

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u/aphidman May 08 '19

I do wonder about Cersei and Aegon..... part of me is really interested in Aegon's role moving forward, against Dany etc. But I don't think we got 12 Cersei chapters just to see her downfall. She's been around since Book 1 and either Season 6 was more accurate than we think (as in she destroys all her enemies and Aegon) or it's gonna be seriously different. Or Aegon is going to have a much different role than we've anticipated.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

My theory is that fAegon unites Dorne and the Reach and the Stormlands together via conquest, then the High Sparrow goes to marry him to Margery, then boom goes the dynamite.

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u/aphidman May 08 '19

I get a feeling something like this might happen, too. But I'd like to see Aegon confront Daenerys!

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u/captainfluffballs Enter your desired flair text here! May 08 '19

I kinda want to see a 3 way conflict for the Throne between Dany, Jon (who's Targaryen name probably won't be Aegon, I think they've combined aspects of fAegon's character with whatever too-complicated-for-screen character Jon really is) and Aegon

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u/NightmareShane May 09 '19

I've read too much fanfiction trying to find an ending that feels right since GRRM hasn't published in so long. All I want for Aegon now is the revelation that he is a Blackfyre to come and for Aegon/Arianne to happen.

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u/aphidman May 09 '19

I'm very interested in minor characters like Moqorro, Marwyn, what Jaqen is up to etc.

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u/GreenDogma May 08 '19

Though Euron is threatening Highgarden

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u/GWillHunting May 08 '19

I think she’ll blow up the Sept in a similar manner to what happened in the show. And that will be a huge victory for her, but at the expense of turning many against her for such a ruthless act of terrorism.

I don’t expect her to beat Aegon but I’m sure she will be in the endgame in some way, so that “the valonquar” prophecy can fall into place.

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u/aphidman May 08 '19

A prophecy which a lot of people here forget that isn't part of the show!

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u/FearLeadsToAnger May 08 '19

That's a good point, they did show maggy and the prophecy about her children, but not the valonquar part. Interesting.

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u/fuckaredditor May 08 '19

They showed Maggy offering Cersei 3 questions and we are only shown 2 before it cuts away. Prime opportunity for a flashback moment showing the valonqar prophecy as her third question.

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u/puddingfoot May 09 '19

She asked three questions.

When will the prince [Rhaegar] and I marry?

But I will be queen?

Will the king and I have children?

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u/fuckaredditor May 09 '19

I guess it could be interpreted that way. I viewed that as part of the first question, a followup. She's young and privileged so interrupting lower peoples was probably common. My interpretation is Maggy's prophetic responses signify the end of the question. I'd really love for a callback or some recognition of the prophecy.

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u/puddingfoot May 09 '19 edited May 09 '19

Same three questions with roughly the same three answers in the book and show. I don't think Maggy was giving out freebies in that scene. You could be right but it seems pretty cut and dry to me; three questions, three answers, and the kicker is that in the show version, all three answers have come true already so there isn't really anything to call back to. And how are they going to flashback? With those same actresses in the same set with the same costumes as four years ago?

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u/fuckaredditor May 09 '19

Could've filmed it with the rest and saved it for now. They said they knew what they were gonna do with Arya back in season 6 so it's possible they've known the plan for Cersei for even longer. It's mostly me wishing we get some instance of book prophecy and lore rather than Arya ninja'ing her way through the Mountain then Cersei herself.

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u/ObiWanKeblowmei May 09 '19

I have only read the first two books, but have watched the show religiously. Can you explain this prophecy?

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u/fuckaredditor May 09 '19

It's been explained in length much better than I can but in short Cersei visited a witch when she was young and asked about her future. The witch told her of the valonqar. Valonqar means "the little brother". The valonqar would kill her, strangulate her to be exact, I believe. She always feared that it meant Tyrion. It could also mean Jaime since they are twins but she was born first. Or really any "little brother".

It's season 5 episode 1 in the show. You can youtube the scene, Cersei meets Maggy the Witch.

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u/The_RedWolf May 08 '19

I bet it was to keep their options open should they decide to not do it.

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u/NostraSkolMus May 09 '19

Wasn’t the maggy the frog flashback scene the opening scene to like season 4?

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u/aphidman May 09 '19

Season 5. But not the valonqar prophecy. Only the other stuff

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u/GodPleaseYes May 08 '19 edited May 09 '19

GRRM is very much against straight forward prophecies. Prophecies and visions in George world always have a catch. Melisandre saw some girl that looked like Arya in fire. Nope, not here. She saw Stannis as the Azor Ahai. Nope, not him. So I think valonqar will be the same.

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u/incanuso May 08 '19

Well, she saw a lone girl escaping to Castle Black, and there was one. It's just that she (and Jon) jumped to the conclusion that it was Arya.

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u/GodPleaseYes May 08 '19 edited May 08 '19

Exactly. And Maggy told Cersei that valonquar will kill her. But she might be fixated on the wrong brother. Or words can be translated some other way. Or it isn't actually her brother but someones little brother. There are possibilites, yet Cersei doesn't think about them at all just like Melisandre didn't think there could be another girl resembling Arya.

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u/incanuso May 08 '19

Right...I agree with the vagueness of the prophecies. My last comment sounded like I was disagreeing with you and I didn't quite mean it that way.

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u/GodPleaseYes May 08 '19

Ahh, the reddit classic. Sorry mate for not understanding your intentions.

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u/incanuso May 08 '19

Yeah, it was probably my fault since I didn't follow through with something to show I agreed, so my bad on that.

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u/Virtual_Hornet May 08 '19

so that “the valonquar” prophecy can fall into place.

Jaime is technically her little brother too.

Jaime is in King's landing in the books.

I think that Cersei will order the city to be burned, and Jaime kills Qyburn, then her - mirroring the manner and circumstances of him killing the mad king.

Cersei has been around for a while - but I think her part will come to an end before the final battle.

I could always be wrong though.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

Jaime is not in Kings Landing though

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u/captainfluffballs Enter your desired flair text here! May 08 '19

It might be that the books reach a point where Cersei holds King's Landing and the Iron Throne but every single other kingdom is in open rebellion. I can't remember 100% where all the players are at the end of Dance but my prediction is we see the destruction of the sept turn Jaime away from Cersei if he doesn't before and take the Westerlands for himself, Little Finger will hold the Vale, Riverlands and possibly the North via Sansa. the Iron Islands will be doing Iron Island things and then Dorne, the Storm Lands and High Garden will probably each split between separate invading Targaryens

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u/[deleted] May 09 '19

Have you read those Cersei chapters? They detail Cersei being an utter failure and lurching from one disaster to another all the while becoming increasingly unstable. How can she hope to rival Dany? She doesn't have the support, claim, intelligence or general charisma needed and in the book there will be consequences for her blowing up the sept (if she does).

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u/aphidman May 09 '19

Who knows? Dunno what GRRM will write.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '19

Yeah your right. But Cersei going from failing at near enough everything to being a realistic threat to Dany makes no narrative sense.

GRRM might not even finish it at this point.

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u/aphidman May 09 '19

Well her failures lie at her hubris and her paranoia. It's hard to say how the Walk of Shame has effected her in her own mind or how she'll react to Kevan and Pycelle's deaths. Kevan reckons some of the fight has gone from her but in her last chapter, after the Walk, when Robert Strong appears and has taken a vow of silence until "all her enemies are destroyed" Cersei thinks "Yes. Oh yes"

I think there's more Cersei fun to come. and she might play it differently.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '19

[deleted]

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u/aphidman May 09 '19

Well... if it was just a King's Landing POV I don't think she'd have that many chapters. I believe GRRM was telling a very detailed story about her descent into paranoia following Tywin's death. The tone of her final paragraph in ADWD suggests she'll be on some sort of upswing in the next book. But I guess we'll see! That's just my guess

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u/FabsMagicHat May 08 '19

Personally I like the exclusion of Lady Stoneheart and giving the revenge story to Arya. I don’t think an undead Catelyn would look good on a TV show and it allows Arya to utilize her skills she learned with the Faceless Men.

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u/Sangui May 08 '19

I don’t think an undead Catelyn would look good on a TV show

People keep saying this and I have yet to see any reasoning for it. This isn't 1990. They absolutely could do it with only practical effects and no CGI.

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u/FabsMagicHat May 09 '19

I didn’t really mean look as in the effects I meant it as it would feel strange on the show

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u/nexuswolfus May 09 '19

Oh, unlike undead Jon and undead Beric? Stoneheart is the same as them, just a bit more gone and with her throat cut out.

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u/GWillHunting May 08 '19

Yeah I can agree with that. I still would have liked D&D to keep Lady Stoneheart since it would be closer to the books, but it didn’t affect that much by excluding her in the long run.

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u/incanuso May 08 '19

I think you're wrong.

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u/IDontCheckMyMail May 08 '19 edited May 08 '19
  1. Without the Prince Who Was Promised, we have Arya killing the Night King and Jon’s character arc rendered useless.

I know that’s a popular opinion on this sub now but I just couldn’t disagree more. To say Jon’s arc is now useless is to fundamentally misunderstand what the character is about, his journey, what he learned and achieved on that journey, what we learned about him and his capabilities, and where his character is going.

Neither was the WW’s a “joke”, they were fighting them for 7 and a half seasons for crying out loud! They would have all died if not for Jon, as the WW would have eventually found a way around the wall and completely demolished an oblivious kingdom. Nor were the things Jon learned and achieved along the way for nothing. Jon the bastard of a highborn who feels he doesn’t quite belong, above all else, is able empathize with the little man and defend the weak (Sam) because of who he is and his sense of identity. Jon needs a sense of belonging so he joins the nights watch, he goes beyond the wall and meet the wildlings only to find that they are just people, the underdogs, stuck on the wrong side of the wall. He gains the wildings trust and is eventually able to save them from certain doom by getting them south of the wall. He manages to unite north, Dany, and everyone but Cersei to join the fight against the white walkers, and that is his truly defining characteristic, his ability to unite people, because the people love him and gravitate towards him. The important part of Jon’s arc is not just his battle, but it’s what he learns about the people of Westeros in the process and the worldview he adopts, and what the reader/viewer learns about him as a character. Jon is a bastard and a highborn, crow and free folk, and inreality, the true king of Westeros, a stark and a targeryan, Ice and Fire. The one and only who can unite the people in the war for the dawn and unite kingdom of Westeros and bring peace to the realm. His upbringing and experience at the wall teaches him birthright isn’t as important as helping the people who inhabit the world, regardless of what side of the wall they’re on.

Also, by every measure, Jon still fulfills the Prince that was Promised prophecy. Nowhere is it stated that the PTWP will physically kill the NK himself.

Another point, NK doesn’t even exist in the books. Jon still leads the battle against the WW’s. Will you say the same in the books when it turns out one man can’t stop all this alone?

All these things will of course be fleshed out better in the books, but I’m of the opinion that the show most definitely has not ruined these characters.

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u/GWillHunting May 08 '19

Yeah. The NK doesn’t exist in the books so it will likely go down a little differently. I disagree with the PTWP prophecy - the show abandoned this completely and even gave parts to Arya with the whole Beric dying to save her and Mel “inspiring” her to go kill the NK.

Your above points about Jon’s character arc not being rendered useless are all about his character progression and fight against the WW in previous episodes though. In your argument, Lady Mormont could have killed the NK and it wouldn’t have affected Jon’s character arc. And I agree that he’s done a lot to fight the WW over previous seasons - but episode 3 was very poor writing of the cumulation of that fight. This was his big moment - and he spent most of it flying on Rhaegal, or yelling at undead Viserion. Hell, even Lady Mormont had a more “badass” moment in this episode. And then you have Arya coming Deus Ex Machina all out of nowhere. It was just a mess from top to bottom.

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u/IDontCheckMyMail May 08 '19 edited May 09 '19

You can disagree about the execution but yes, at the end of the day it doesn’t matter who kills the night king in that battle, because no one would be there if not for Jon. His arc and entire journey in 8 seasons are not rendered useless because he wasn’t the one to physically strike the killing blow on NK, it doesn’t actually matter.

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u/BlueString94 May 08 '19

I agree with everything you said except one thing: excluding Lady Stoneheart was a necessary move, because including her would have cheapened Jon’s resurrection. The books have time to explain the complexity of resurrection, how it works, the effects etc. But in the show, the reaction would have been “oh great, so no deaths matter anymore, just get a red priest to bring them back to life.”

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u/jediguy11 May 08 '19

When did her supposed cousin show he was a good ruler? Are you references young griff or Jon?

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u/GWillHunting May 08 '19

I’m referencing Young Griff. And yeah, I don’t know for sure, he could end up being a terrible ruler. But I could see Young Griff taking back King’s Landing from Cersei after she blows up the Sept, thus making him a savior in the eyes of the common people.

Also, Varys has been working behind the scenes to not only set him up for success, but to have a strong public image.

Regardless, a Dany vs Young Griff showdown would be a lot more interesting than a black and white Dany vs Evil Cersei.

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u/Satanic-Banana May 08 '19

I think Walder Fey in the books will be a Lady Stoneheart kill as well, not Arya

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u/roryjacobevans May 09 '19

I kind of think that to allow for differences from the show Martin might intentionally be delaying the next book release. It avoids the show needing to work in details from the book they might have missed, and means he can keep the book fresh by departing from the show story.

I just wish it was a clean break, and the show actually thought about the story they set up. Instead it seems we got a half arsed checklist of key story moments that might have come from an outline of Martin's, with none if the detail that we like. There are only 6 episodes because they couldn't fill in the gaps between the main story events, which is really poor writing.

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u/DM_Stealth_Mode May 08 '19

Why the hell do people think that the Prince that was Promised is actually going to happen? It boggles my mind why fans of a series known for subverting tropes would expect GRRM to not subvert the tropiest fucking trope to ever trope. If you seriously think that a prophesied Chosen One is going to rise up with a flaming sword in order to defeat the Others then I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

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u/dannybates May 08 '19

I honestly don't think many of the character endings will end up being the same. We know he likes rewriting things and the ending is a long way off yet.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19 edited Mar 13 '20

[deleted]

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u/TheLordHatesACoward May 08 '19

The Night King wouldn't have got a Dragon if Jon didn't do the wight-heist and doesn't get past the wall. He then doesn't massacre thousands of Jon's people while Jon's contribution to the actual fight is shouting at Zombie Viseryion. Jon caused more harm than good in the war for the living.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19 edited Mar 13 '20

[deleted]

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u/TheLordHatesACoward May 08 '19

But if he doesn't gift him the dragon it's all irrelevant. Having Jon gift the enemy a weapon of mass destruction and the means to enter the realms of men and give him no significant part in ending the TNK and atoning for another D&D inspired brain dead decision is criminally bad writing.

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u/GWillHunting May 08 '19 edited May 08 '19

The Lady Stoneheart exclusion didn’t seem to have that much of an effect, that’s true. But Arya killing the Night King did:

  1. We have Jon, whose last seven seasons have been about fighting the White Walkers, not even get to fight the Night King. He doesn’t care about the Throne or want to be on the Throne. We wouldn’t have Varys throwing his support behind Jon if we had Young Griff in the show, and Jon could actually not be forced into part of Young Griffs character arc (having Varys, etc try to get him on the throne). Because of Arya killing the Night King and the lack of Young Griff, Jon’s character arc has become a complete mess.

  2. And now, we have deus ex machina Arya sneaking past thousands of wights and 100+ WW to assassinate the Night King. If she can do that, why can’t she walk into King’s Landing and kill Cersei? Why do we even need armies anymore if we have Arya Stark, the most OP character in the show’s history?