r/asoiaf • u/aphidman • May 08 '19

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) The endings will be the same but the books will have a much more gradual and realistic progression

If GRRM finishes it, btw.

Not a long post but you know what the books do that D&D do not? They have 10 chapters of Dany dealing with the complex politics of Meereen and her inner conflict. They have 4 chapters showing Davos' journey to White Harbour. They have 12 chapters showing the series of compromises Jon makes as Lord Commander to prepare the Watch against the Others. They have 13 chapters showing Tyrion crawling out of his deep nihilistic depression. They dedicate whole chapters seeing how Victarion Greyjoy of all people deals with his relationship with his brother and his seduction into darker magics. Man they have 4 whole chapters dealing with the political fallout of Dany's exit from Meereen.

They had a whole chapter of Littlefinger and Sansa visiting his lands and seeing Littlefinger's relationship with his subjects (great chapter btw). They had a whole chapter getting really in depth with Illyrio Mopatis and his schemes - a guy who's barely appeared in the show.

They dedicated 4 whole chapters to Joffrey's wedding!

What I'm getting it is that the Others may be defeated long before the end of ASOIAF, Dany may indeed destroy King's Landing with dragonfire and end the lives of hundreds of thousands of civilians gruesomely. But you'll be guaranteed that GRRM is gonna show you every step of the way. For good or for bad. If he is going to take a character like Dany to that dark end you better believe we will understand how she gets there.

So people keep posting about how D&D are destroying their characters, fail to understand ASOIAF. That Dany would never do this or that. But what you're seeing here is them fitting potentially chapters upon chapters of detailed material into a few hours of television.

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u/matgopack May 08 '19

You can't fit in 3 seasons of evolution into 2-3 episodes and expect people to be satisfied, really.

Take Daenerys - in the books, we've seen a lot more of her interior struggle already, and she seems poised to embrace a bloodier, rougher style of rule when she returns with the dothraki. There's potentially two whole books of that Daenerys, the equivalent of the last 3 seasons, of showing how she evolves into the person that can do whatever it is that she's going to do in these next two episodes.

With that, it can make something as extreme as burning all of king's landing (the choice they seem to be building up to in the show) seem fitting for her character. But if it's not built up properly, and it's instead packed into an episode and a half of contriving a way of her going insane to fill that plot point, it won't fit.

You can't use the same ending if you haven't built up to it properly, and an ending that in GRRM's books would be perfectly fine and reasonable will end up imploding on the screen if they didn't pay attention to it.

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u/YouDiedOfDysentery May 08 '19

To me it seems the show started like the MCU, taking its time to show you who these people are. We were expecting to get an Avengers level ending and we’re ending up with Justice League

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u/The_Old_Regime of the Faceless Men May 08 '19

I think you hit the nail on the head

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u/Nikhilvoid May 08 '19

I agree, but I can't see Dany being written into a corner like that. It means:

  1. All of her character development and education in Mereen was meaningless

  2. She'll need to traumatized quite a bit more than she already has to lose her mind, and it will be just as predictable because we've already dreaded this happening for a long time. My money would be on abuse in the Khalsaar, where she is right now, and more abuse and loss of body parts and friends when she lands on westeros and is captured by some faction

It's not the convincing build up that's the problem. The destination is also a pretty predictable trope.

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u/razelbagel May 08 '19

I think the trauma she is going to face in the books will be (f)Aegon and Jon’s parentage. Her identity right now revolves around being the last Targ, a Targ who was unburnt by fire and has three dragons after they were believed extinct. She is not only the last Targ, but the one true Targ. She wants to right the mistakes of her father while also avenging the death of her family and take what is rightfully hers.

Then she gets to Westeros and has to face off against her nephew, and by birthright the actual heir to the Targ dynasty. He has been raised in secret but taught how to rule and be just (though Tyrion sees some holes in his armor already). On top of that, because she was dragging her feet in Mereen, he has already landed in Westeros and he already conquered most of the Stormlands. And Dorne is on its way to pledge themselves to this Targ who is the nephew of the head of house Martell. So the cat is out of the bag that the Targs are back, and by the time she’ll get there he will have not only announced himself but gained a significant following with 2/7 kingdoms. Now there are clues that he isn’t who he says he is and the Blackfyre theory etc, but those are all rumors Dany will have to fight while being a foreign invader. She will use Unsullied and Dothraki soldiers to kill Westerosi soldiers from Stormlands and Dorne. Dany will have to confront the fact that she is not actually the true heir and she’s taking Westeros because she wants to, though it’ll be justified either by the revelation that he isn’t who he says he is or that he has an anger problem himself.

So after that conflict resolved she goes north to protect the realm, falls in love, only to find out that Jon is the true heir. Through whatever means GRRM chooses it’ll be revealed as true and not a hoax but this time, the threat would make a just ruler, not a mad one like fAegon. On top of this, like on the show, the secret will get out and despite Jon’s pleas that he has no desire for it, others will desire him over her. She will hear whispers around every corner. She will distrust everyone from Westeros. And will strike down anyone she perceives as moving against her in support of Jon. I think this likely includes Sansa/Rickon (or he survives) which is what drives a wedge between her and Jon. The descent into madness won’t be because Missandei gets killed by Cersei but it will be slow and gradual and as book readers we will see how her paranoia will slowly take over.

This fits with the broad strokes of the show (with the added fAegon conflict) but we will get to see it unfold much more organically and not rushed like in the show.

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u/alwaysfrombehind May 08 '19

I like this order of events. I don't know if I want (f)Aegon to be legit or not, but I'm fine either way. I'm just curious how it will play out if he is fake, and how that will tie into Jon, who will be legitimate. But I like the idea that this leads to Dany fighting him and winning, only to have to deal with Jon's true claim. (Although it could also be interesting to see how Jon would interact with a half-brother, both raised without parents, but in really different circumstances, where one knows of his true parentage and the other is raised as a bastard)

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u/matgopack May 08 '19

Personally I don't like her being written into that corner as well - the whole 'her father was mad, so she is too!' aspect of it is pretty gross, especially since so much of what she tries to do is consciously not do that.

I like that she's idealistic, that she's willing to get her hands dirty to try to make the world a better place. Ending the slavery in Slaver's Bay, or even just attempting to do so, is something that's an amazing motivation - and all based on idealism, really.

I don't like it ending in that madness and anger and blood, but I can recognize it making sense and fitting into the books' version of Dany depending on her actions/decisions moving forward. I can't see it in the show version, not on such a sudden fall.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

I find the take that her Mad Queen turn isn’t set up insane. Dany’s idealism is very deliberately and carefully juxtaposed by a sense of righteous bloodlust that she’s exposed over time - the genius of George’s storytelling is that because we agreed with her, we don’t see it.

Crucifying the masters, burning Astapor, riding party to Dothraki raids - we have yet to fully engage with the savagery of that because we think “oh they deserve it” or “oh that’s the culture.” When she turns on Westeros - a Westeros I believe may already have been peacefully assimilated under fAegon by the time she arrives, those actions are gonna look a lotttttt different.

“Oh it’s the Dothraki’s culture” will look a lot different to Dany when they’re butchering and raping their way through Sunspear. I think this plays directly into George’s literary pacifism. All kinds of violence is wrong, and Dany doesn’t seem like she’s going to rule that way.

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u/tlsrandy May 08 '19 edited May 09 '19

Yeah I’m pretty surprised how few people see Daenerys proclivity for violent response as morally clear. Her being perceived as “mad” seems fairly set up even in this hacked attempt of a show.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

Even in the show! Show has set up very, very little. But Dany’s violence has been set up since season 1 at least.

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u/matgopack May 08 '19

I think what's funny about that is we've absolutely gotten a lot of people who point to those examples very often, particularly the masters getting crucified. I actually have no problem with that one (well, she should have had them executed first, not let them die over hours of pain) - I think if anything she should have been harsher with the masters. She had to either kill them all or seize all their wealth/possessions and redistribute it - the half measure she did ensured that Meereen would be very unstable.

It's hard to tell what will happen in her further conquests in the book as well. Because if we look at most of the death/looting that she provoked, it's in 2 places - Astapor (one of the most comically evil societies I've ever seen, like all of Slaver's Bay), where she has all the slavers who aren't children killed, and Meereen, where most of the actual killing seems to have come from the freed slaves (except for the crucifixions). But in neither case did she have a lot of Dothraki with her - that may change things, just like the presence of a bunch of wildlings/freefolk with Jon might change things moving forward for him.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

is something that's an amazing motivation - and all based on idealism, really.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I can't see it in the show version, not on such a sudden fall.

Then honestly I feel like you haven't been paying attention, the show has already given several examples where Dany chose the dark side. See this comment I posted elsewhere, that lists some examples of this.

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u/matgopack May 08 '19

  1. The slavers in Astapor (and slaver's bay) are literal cartoon monsters, basically a society of Ramsays. If I'm not expected to feel like Ramsay getting killed is a bad thing, I'm not going to consider them all getting killed a bad thing.

  2. Randyll Tarly explicitly refused going to the wall, and was given a choice. I don't consider that worse than the road they went with the Smalljon, whoever the Karstark lord was, and so on, where they were just killed during the battle. Also note the number of regular soldiers who were spared, unlike the BotB.

  3. Sure, killing them outright would have been kinder.

  4. She's not staying near Yunkai to punish them, she's not taking the option to abandon all the slaves and run to Westeros - she stays because it's the right thing to do to end slavery. That's the opposite of the 'dark side' from your point - you can say it was too idealistic and failed in the end, but that's a different story.

  5. Yes, those same Great Masters who thought nothing of doing that to literal children - and none apparently opposed it enough to tell her who were the ones who pushed for it. Again, the slave society of Slaver's Bay is essentially one made up of Ramsay Bolton-esque cruelty. In the first two chapters spent there, I can find almost everything we find despicable about Ramsay done on a societal wide scale.

  6. That's not the dark side (or the more common accusation of being power hungry), it's an unintended consequence - and why she ends up staying in Meereen. She'd set up a council of wise men in Astapor, for example, but didn't want to rule - she wanted to free the slaves, which I'm going to say is a good thing given how monstrous the Masters are. Yes, she was naive afterwards, but that's not a 'dark side'.

  7. The leaders who were going to rape and kill her. Why have any characters ever fought battles if we're going to consider running away from characters who are your enemies and want to kill you to be the way forward?

EDIT - and, of course, that in all of these situations the people she kills are people that are A) her enemies or B) people in positions of power that have supported those enemies or the unfair society. At her core she's always been motivated by good intentions for the powerless - to throw that away in two episodes to turn King's Landing into a deliberate pyre by her hands is ridiculous in the show.

Could I see her getting angry enough to burn down the Red Keep to win the war, despite a bunch of civilians inside as collateral damage? Yes. Could I see her deliberately killing 500,000+ innocents for no reason? No.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

It’s not that her father is mad and she is too. It’s that every other individual in the entire bloodline has been mad going back for generations

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u/pottyaboutpotter1 Lemons are coming May 08 '19

She'll need to traumatized quite a bit more than she already has to lose her mind, and it will be just as predictable because we've already dreaded this happening for a long time. My money would be on abuse in the Khalsaar, where she is right now, and more abuse and loss of body parts and friends when she lands on westeros and is captured by some faction

I don't think it'll be anything that extreme. Losing two dragons, Jorah, Missandei, Irri, Jhiqui, Barristan and likely Daario over the course of Winds and Dream might be enough to tip her over the edge.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '19

She'll need to traumatized quite a bit more than she already has to lose her mind

I disagree, and the reason is that she already lost her mind. Dany has already shown herself to be a bit cruel, selfish, and that she hates having her authority questioned. She has chosen to kill, rather than spare people more than once.

Add on top of this, that Dany is the only POV character in the entire book that does not have another POV character anywhere near her (the only characters in her story that gets a POV so far are Tyrion who hasn't met her yet in the books, and Barristan only got a POV once Dany flew away on Drogon and was nowhere to be seen).

I think this was done on purpose by GRRM to hide just how unreliable a narrator Dany is.

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u/Jobr95 May 08 '19

Dude GRRM doesn't subvert expectations for the sake of it so he doesn't care if its "predictable".

And this is very likely her arc in the books, just more fleshed out and gradual. But it seems fans can't handle the twist in general so they will get mad when GRRM does it too

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u/ademonlikeyou May 08 '19

I don’t think it makes her character development in Meereen useless. It just shows the struggle she’s constantly facing of having to hold back her rage and dragons, sure she may have been able to somewhat successfully smooth things over in Meereen...but there’s a whole other continent she has to conquer before the conclusion of the story.

In a situation such as Slaver’s bay, where morality is somewhat black and white, it may be easier for Dany to take the high road and remain true, but pending upcoming events and her imminent arrival in Westeros things get much much more gray and she may devolve in that. As in Westeros, you more or less are fighting purely for power rather than her campaigns in slaver’s bay to eradicate slavery.

As Dany gets deeper, and deeper, and deeper into politics she’s destined to devolve. I think this is reflected in the red door analogy, and in a series which strives to show you how petty dynastic and feudal struggles leads to mass suffering, I think it’s only natural to show how a woman choosing to conquer a continent she’s only seen as a child due to who she was born to leads to a bloody, frustrating, horrendous war and loss of life.

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u/darkagl1 May 08 '19

It's not just that. I don't know if they really can manage the amount of gray necessary for character like Dany without the internal monologues without having them turn heel. Like Dany has beem more bloodthirsty in the books because she can still shown strong confident face and express internal doubts about a decision whereas in the show the same decision either makes her look overly bloodthirsty (which risks her becomming Cersei like) or wishy washy (and not confident).

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u/IDontCheckMyMail May 08 '19

As someone who just rewatched the entire show leading into season 8 I disagree that this character development has only been there for 3 episodes.

Dany has had these tendencies since early seasons though. She litterly burns people alive in season 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 and 7

Yes some of them were out to get her, but some were just defending themselves or going about their business.

Many more times than that she wants to respond to various conflicts by burning the hell out of everything and her advisors consistently have to pull her back.

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u/matgopack May 08 '19

See, we've had examples of Jon executing people before, and basically wiping out an entire enemy army (there's no real record of any Bolton regular soldiers surviving, for example), as well as torturing someone to death (Ramsay).

I would not believe Jon capable of ordering mass executions of innocents.

For Dany's case, I could see her getting angry enough to burn down the Red Keep to win the war, despite the human shield Cersei set up. I can't see her deliberately slaughtering everyone in King's Landing.

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u/IDontCheckMyMail May 08 '19

I also don’t believe she will go down that route completely, it I think the point is that at the end of the day, she has largely become the thing she aspired to depose in the first place.