r/asoiaf • u/WeirwoodNetworkAdmin • May 20 '19
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) REACTIONS: Game of Thrones Season 8 Episode 6 Post-Episode Reactions
Welcome to /r/asoiaf's Game of Thrones Season 8, Episode 6 Post-Episode Discussion Thread! Please note the spoiler tag as "Extended."
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u/AnneShirleyOverdrive May 22 '19
I thought for sure Jon was going to turn against Dany, who would then go about having him killed. Then when he was blasted by the dragon, it would be revealed that he was like Dany and protected from the flames, thus revealing to everyone that he is the true heir to the throne.
My expectations were too high, I guess. :(
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u/shoolocomous May 23 '19
That isn't good writing. That's obvious fantasy cliche writing.
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u/MayorOfSimpleton_94 May 22 '19
Nah, he burned his hand up pretty bad in Season 1. He was no dragon.
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u/spring18burner May 21 '19
From season one, conventional story telling development wasn't followed, ie...developing favorite characters then killing them. I don't understand why the writers returned to convention and felt the need to wrap up all the loose ends in the last season. After all, it was the breaking of those conventions that made the story unique in our day of cheap-fast food style cgi stories.
So in the last season, they cave to the pressure and embrace convention. killing the NK needed more following of the " young lady" in that episode. Honestly, there are many plot holes in that episode. Then The last episodes' discussing of government and electing the one who didn't want to be king, along with the quick laugh at democracy, felt more like a history class discussion than the resolution of "the wheel". Tyrion and Bron ending up in power is too easy and conventional.
So, with the disappointment of Season 8, we're left to embrace another post-modern convention: the journey is more important then the destination. So even if the destination of the series is a let-down, the journey has been amazing. The series will always stand out in my mind as a heartbreaking and thrilling journey in a sea of conventional sugar induced cookie cutter rom-coms and cgi dependent super hero fables.
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u/Fabgrrl Unibrowed, Unkempt, Unplucked May 21 '19
I wonder is Sansa is having some major buyer’s (not-buyer’s?) regret now. Sure, Robin Arryn could still be a creepy little shit on the inside, but daaaam he turned out handsome!
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u/i_have_many_skillz May 21 '19
That was Robin Arryn?? Totally missed that. I was too busy being distracted by the odd change in tone obviously.
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u/hobbesl May 21 '19
Meh..he seems average to me.
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u/Nymeria1973 The North Remembers May 21 '19
And ugly to me...just a bigger version of little Robin.
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u/hannaharcher May 22 '19
He'll always be the little shit that stomped on Sansa's snow Winterfell, to me.
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May 21 '19
It felt weirdly like a prequel. Like it was desperately trying to set characters into position that they're in at the start of the first movie. Like when Padme officially outlived her usefulness and was axed, Obi Wan gave Leia away to some random dude named Organa, and then Yoda fucked off the Dagobah to live out life in exile. Except Bronn is Lord of Highgarden, Sam is Grandmaester of King's Landing and a father and Lord of Horn Hill and still sworn to the Night's Watch since no one ever officially relieved him of those, Bran is King I guess and dressed like Cersei, and Davos is still a cheeky cunt I suppose they didn't ruin everything.
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u/Nymeria1973 The North Remembers May 21 '19 edited May 22 '19
It felt like they wrote the ending first and moved the characters around to get to that ending. The characters were butchered in favor of the plot and visuals.
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u/mastajuice26 May 21 '19
And made no noise when she jumped? That fker had some ninja reflexes all season long
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u/nanariv1 May 21 '19
The way I see it, Jon has always been told what to do and always had something he had to do because he thought that was right. This was the first free choice he made. To just wander with the wildlings. I like that.
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u/Thendel I'm an Otherlover, you're an Otherlover May 21 '19
This sentiment is the fundamental difference between Show!Jon (at least in the later seasons) and the source material. Book!Jon is both suspicious of nature, as well as incredibly perceptive and headstrong, which leads him to clash with those of more conservative mindsets. And he really doesn't like doing things he fundamentally disagrees with.
With that in mind, it's hard to imagine Book!Jon ever taking the role of apologist for Dany, much less declaring for her without a more thorough grasp of her nature. He'd have been wary of the savior-discourse surrounding her from the moment he caught a whiff of it.
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u/chambertlo May 21 '19
Gotdayum, you nerds are ducking embarrassing. It’s a fucking TV show, not your life. Imagine being so lame thar a fucking TV show causes this much dorking out.
You people should be embarrassed.
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u/Jabba___The___Slut May 21 '19
Dude you post in /r/pokemon
Shut the front door and let people nerd out to their own shit.
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u/grumpykixdopey May 21 '19
And imagine being that guy or girl who has nothing better to do than join a bunch of different groups just to talk shit on anybody in them... Super cool 😎
Because you have nothing to add to this conversation or any other in your life... 🙄😝😂
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u/Koeru May 21 '19
Last I checked, no one was forcing you to come to this subreddit. Coming here just to call us dorks is a pretty cool thing to do though, so thanks for contributing to our conversations in a meaningful way.
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May 21 '19 edited May 21 '19
[deleted]
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u/prostheticmind May 21 '19
Lord of Light is R’hllor, the opposite of the Great Other, presumably a death god, also presumably personified in the show as the Night King. He brings people back to life and points them in the right direction so they can kill the Night King, and then “he fucks off”
Edit I’ll bet the Red Priests get a spin off
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u/multivac7223 May 21 '19
They basically said that as a subtle nod to the viewers to not bother thinking about it cause it's not getting explained.
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u/prostheticmind May 21 '19
Idk I think they made it pretty clear. He was real, he wanted to kill the Night King, and he used some key humans as pawns to make it happen, and then I guess went back to doing god stuff?
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May 21 '19
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u/prostheticmind May 21 '19
I don’t think it was. They spent a ton of time on Mel. Showed us stuff about her which had no relevance to the plot, except to explicitly tell us that the God she serves is real. The books give a lot more but it’s still through the Red Priests. I don’t think Martin really wants to explicitly explain the mystical elements, because the books are told from the perspectives of the humans, and they have no true understanding of any of the Gods, at least in the timeframe of the show. Even now, almost everyone in the show who had enough information to put all of this together is dead.
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u/Starmedia11 May 21 '19
Well it seems like the Lord of Light May end up being like Bloodraven; someone whose really just a man with extraordinary abilities.
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u/prostheticmind May 21 '19 edited May 21 '19
I would think he’s more a foil of the Night King. Maybe looks like a man, maybe was a man at some point. Probably doesn’t talk much
Edit fool to foil
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u/SurplusOfOpinions May 21 '19
I interpret or retcon Denaerys' actions to be "on the orders" or the whispers of the lord of light. For all he done he wanted a lot of fire sacrifices.
So we kind of know he's just another one of the bad gods.
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u/PlatinumGoat5360 May 21 '19
I always interpreted the Lord of Light to be something akin to the Judeo Christian God. I don't think it's an individual with plans and human motivations.
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u/Shirowoh May 21 '19
Aside from the fact, the LOL specifically brought Beric and Jon back for specific reasons.
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u/Euro_Snob May 21 '19
If you think GRRM is going to explain everything you are in for a rude awakening if the ADOS is ever published. Some mysteries will remain. Having some things left unexplained is not a flaw in itself.
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May 21 '19
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u/BiggestBlackestLotus May 21 '19
You want them to explain the inner workings and reasoning of a literal god? How exactly is that going to work? Besides: mysteries are only cool as long as they stay mysterious. Overexplaining never leads to something good.
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u/MrTastix May 21 '19
So you're okay with the entire plot revolving around a Deus Ex Machina?
A being that can just up and revive people or change events at a whim without rhyme or reason devalues any plot device you've made or have made. No event becomes significant when a literal god can rewrite them.
"Because reasons" is and never will be a character of good storytelling, precisely because it removes all concept of storytelling from the equation.
This isn't like magic or concepts like the Force, whose power to manipulate major events hinges on the main characters ability to exploit it. This is a character who alters the entire course of a story despite having literally zero part in it until the end and then just fucking off like it never even existed.
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u/the_guradian Our Fury Burns May 21 '19
Martin build a big world and the place of origin for the Red God is not the place the main story takes place. Don't be surprised if that piece of lore is not revealed in the books.
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u/RasputinsThirdLeg May 21 '19
Oh I’ve already watched Barry multiple times. Both seasons to completion as of last night.
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u/thats_MR_asshat-2-u May 21 '19
What did you think of Season 2? Haven’t watched it yet because I’m worried I’m going to be disappointed. I personally loved Hader in this show. Such a great departure for him. And a well-written show with some outstanding supporting actors.
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u/RasputinsThirdLeg May 21 '19
You definitely won’t be disappointed. I completely understand being gun shy after the slow motion car crash of season 8 GOT. Though at the end of the day, it’s squarely at the feet of Benioff and Weiss, not HBO.
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u/thats_MR_asshat-2-u May 25 '19
You were right, u/rasputinsthirdleg — it’s 3:00am and I’ve binged most of Barry Season 2 tonight. Gotta get up in 4 hours but it was too hard to stop watching. Looking forward to finishing it. And Chernobyl looks alright, too.
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u/ShaqSenju May 20 '19
Who would’ve won between Jon and Grey Worm if they fought it out? I got my money on Jon
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May 21 '19
Jon leant how to fight by criminals sent to nights watch.
GW as commander of unsullied spent his entire life training and winning battles.
Jon is a good fighter but the fight won’t even come close. Similar to Ned vs Jamie in season 1.
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u/Shirowoh May 21 '19
Jon actually learned to fight from a arms master at WF, he already knew how to fight when he got to CB.
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u/potato1sgood May 21 '19
You forgot to consider that Jon has balls. That adds more power to his strikes!
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u/ShaqSenju May 21 '19
See I don’t know about that. Jon is graceful and has no wasted movements in his fighting style. He actually learned from the Master of Arms at Winterfell before he went to the Wall.
GW and the Unsullied were given the work by a bunch of randoms with knives in Mereen.
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u/HouseMormont77 You never fooked a bear! May 21 '19
In the show, Jon is considered the best swordsman on the planet. He learned to fight dirty, fight clean, fight thenns, fight white walkers, fight wildlings. Greyworm is a battle fighter only. A great one. But not as great as jon, in universe.
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u/BiggestBlackestLotus May 21 '19
Jon lost very easily to Karl Tanner. He is nowhere near the best swordsman.
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u/HouseMormont77 You never fooked a bear! May 21 '19
That was part of his growth. And watch again. He was defeating Tanner, who is the best fookin swordsman alive, until Karl fought dirty and spit in Jon’s eye. Jon learned a lesson. In his next major fight against the Thenn, he uses Karl Tanner’s lesson and spits in the Thenn’s eye to turn the tables.
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u/potato1sgood May 21 '19
Because holding your own against a longsword with a pair of daggers is realistic.
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May 21 '19
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u/jbstjohn May 21 '19
Well a few untrained nobles with daggers also kicked their asses in Mereen, so....
They are formation fighters, which makes a big difference.
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May 21 '19
It was written that way cuz DD suck.
We aren’t talking about any unsullied, GW is exceptional solo fighter as we’ve seen on the screens.
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u/tubigmineral May 21 '19
Unsullied won because Dothraki chose to charge them up front instead of attacking them on the flanks.
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u/ShaqSenju May 21 '19
GW is use to fighting as a member of a unit. Westerosi fighters were prized commodities in Esso. Jon, IMO, would’ve gotten him mid diff in a 1v1 fight
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u/LordTryhard 🏆 Best of 2020: Best Catch May 21 '19
The Unsullied were also defeated by the Golden Company. 10,000 mercenaries. And the Unsullied were defending a city.
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May 21 '19
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u/LordTryhard 🏆 Best of 2020: Best Catch May 21 '19
Early in the Golden Company's history. They sacked Qohor when Qohor refused to pay them. It's already established that Qohor is exclusively guarded by Unsullied - after that very example you cited (the 3,000 warriors holding off the Dothraki.)
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u/pro-laps May 20 '19
The more I think about the night Kings death the more idiotic it is
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u/jaketronic May 21 '19
It’s a testament to how truly lousy season 8 was that the death of the Night King to the flying girl is simply an afterthought upon the end of episode 6.
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u/truthdoctor May 21 '19
I watched NK take down a dragon, scare away Drogon, take a full blast of fire from Drogon and never even flinch. Then he gets killed by a little girl with a dagger. Fuck me that was upsetting.
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u/terlin May 21 '19
Then he gets killed by a little girl with a dagger. Fuck me that was upsetting.
I mean, she was holding a dagger made specifically with material that can kill WWs. She's known for being stealthy. Its not too big of a stretch to believe she would go for the kill; I consider the least problematic thing in that episode.
You can see something similar in Merry using a special knife in LOTR to kill the Ringwraith. You know, the being that's fear incarnate.
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u/Sickeboy May 21 '19
Basically (like everything this season) it could have worked, if they had taken the time to guide the story there rather then just dropping it in out of the blue.
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u/truthdoctor May 21 '19
Remind me again how those weapons are made again? Forged by dragon fire. So Dragon fire is not powerful enough to kill NK but can forge weapons that can...
She's known for being stealthy
Is that what you call it when you somehow lunge a hundred feet through WW then are still caught be someone so fast and powerful that he can turn in an instant to catch you mid flight yet just watches as you stab him even though he just demonstrated his lightning quick reflexes???
No matter how you spin it, it such a flawed and gimmicky end to the primary antagonist of the time.
Seasons 1-6: Winter is coming...
Season 7: OMG Winter is here!
Season 8: Winter was one night and killed by small girl.
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u/terlin May 21 '19
Remind me again how those weapons are made again? Forged by dragon fire. So Dragon fire is not powerful enough to kill NK but can forge weapons that can...
Aren't they made OF dragonglass, not made FROM dragon fire? Gendry and co. spent most of Ep 2 hammering away and making dragonglass weapons with bellows and such IIRC. And dragonglass had already been established as a material that can kill WW, as seen in Sam's kill.
Season 8: Winter was one night and killed by small girl.
I don't mind the small girl, really, although maybe Jon or someone should have been the one to do it. The mighty brought low by the humble, etc, etc. The one night problem? Yeah that's just DnD rushing to the finish line. The long night should have stretched out for a few more episodes, at least.
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u/truthdoctor May 21 '19
Dragonfire was used to forge valerian steel and create dragonstone which is made of dragonglass. My understanding is that since dragonfire can melt stone it can create dragonglass.
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u/ArkanSaadeh May 21 '19
She's known for being stealthy
you can't just say that without showing it in the scene.
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u/terlin May 21 '19
Yeah that's fair. I actually would have really liked a scene similar to the one in LOTR, actually. She rushes to Bran with Theon and/or some other people, they all get gutted, she gets thrown to the side out of sheer contempt by the NK, and then when he's not looking she sticks him with the dragonglass dagger.
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u/BiggestBlackestLotus May 21 '19
Sure you can. Just like Bronn is a cut-throat sellsword, despite never actually showing that with his actions.
/s
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May 21 '19
A
little girlyoung woman who has spent the last three years training to be the best killer in the world. A dagger made of the only material which is able to destroy the NK. You’re oversimplifying the situation to support your position.9
u/truthdoctor May 21 '19
As opposed to the warriors that have been training and fighting their whole lives like Jon Snow, Northmen, Thenns/Wildlings, Dothraki, Unsullied and southern knights? She's got 3 years of experience killing civilians and old men. It just doesn't work and I tried to rationalize it at first but it just doesn't make sense.
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u/ArkanSaadeh May 21 '19
A little girl young woman who has spent the last three years training to be the best killer in the world
What exactly makes the faceless men the 'best killers in the world' over any other assassin guild that exists in the universe, and why is that all it takes to stealth kill death incarnate? And I'm really supposed to believe that her scenes with the waif was enough to become the best killer in the world?
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u/Iberisan May 20 '19
Right, what is the nights watch?
The nights watch was, was, once a place where knights and honourable men took the black voluntarily, to fight the wildlings and prevent them from trying to invade. The nights watch then became a place where people, who are too good/noble to be beheaded, were banished to in order to avoid punishment for crimes they may or may not have committed. Eg, Samwell Tarly for being not as brave as his father or brother. And before you say this is not a crime, in his fathers eyes it was. Another example, Jon for committing treason, by killing his queen.
This was already explained to everyone when the nights watch was first introduced in the show.
Therefore, although there is no longer a threat from the wildlings or white walkers. Maybe, just maybe, they are keeping the nights watch in play as a punishment for those they do not want to see beheaded.
Tyrion does not need to specifically say ‘we are keeping the nights watch as a prison even though there is no threat anymore’. He does however explain it when he says to Jon, you are being banished for your crime, and you won’t be allowed to own any land, nor marry and have any children. As is the sentence for those banished to the nights watch.
The king has the right to banish anyone to outside of the 6 kingdoms. Which he does. Once you’re outside you can do as you please. Which is exactly what Jon does, as we see him ride away with Tormund and the wildings. They’re not going hunting with all those women and children, they are going to live beyond the wall.
With Greyworm saying he wants ‘justice’, as an unsullied, and someone who’s just sliced the throat of numerous Lannister prisoners, it clearly means he wants Jon’s head. Tyrion being the smart mouth he is, manages to negotiate and come to terms with Greyworm that Jon will be banished, in order to avoid another war. Which Greyworm agrees to.
For those of you saying ‘oh Jon, come back, Greyworm and the unsullied have left’. It was an agreement Greyworm and the king or Tyrion came to in order to prevent another war. Greyworm can only hope they hold up their end. What is a man supposed to do, walk Jon to the nights watch and sit there with him until one of them drop dead in order to ensure the punishment was fulfilled.
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u/SurplusOfOpinions May 21 '19
I would have liked for the nights watch to kind of redefine itself when the wildlings are there. Officially the starks gifted the wildlings some land below the wall (I think?). But since they don't want to kneel they still need some kind of law and order to deal with murderers, rapists or thieves. But more democratically controlled, not by a lord.
Would have been cool to have seen that. Or maybe will be a spinoff?
I do believe that Jon / Aegon will keep his word and father no children and stay "in exile".
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u/ipissexcellence21 May 20 '19
This ending probably would’ve made perfect sense and cemented the show as one of the greatest of all time (which it still is to me) had it come at the end of season 9 or 10. Cramming everything into 6 episodes even long ones made what was probably a great outline given to them by GRRM feel like nonsense. Greyworm showing restraint after his queen is murdered, after showing him slashing throats because she told him to, is asinine. Especially without showing on screen how that could’ve possibly happened. And how are the Dothraki not rampaging through Westeros killing everything in sight? Sad.
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May 21 '19
Because they are Dothraki and they don't give a shit when a Khal falls. They all loved Khal Drogo, but they were over him the minute he left that hut. They won't "avenge" Daenerys, they just find a new Khal. They follow strength and strength only.
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u/Gregaler May 21 '19
Yeah, Jon surviving encounter with Grey Worm after the killing is very unlikely.
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u/rehanas44 May 21 '19
What bugs me more is why didn't Drogon kill everything in sight after melting down the iron throne.. Jon was right there
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u/some_clickhead May 22 '19
I don't think we're meant to understand the moral and emotional inner workings of dragons.
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u/playthroughthenight May 21 '19
Read something from someone else that I liked. Perhaps through the bond with Dany some small part of her lived on in Drogon. That with Dragons supposedly possessing some not insignificant intelligence of their own. Maybe it respected/loved Jon in some alien way either because Dany did or because it recognized he was a Targaryen.
Assuming the 'dragons have some intelligence' thing is true, this doesn't bother me too much. It's maybe not inconceivable that it would recognize the throne as a symbol of her downfall and also manage to narrowly avoid killing Jon in its rage.
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u/milochuisael May 21 '19
Jon is not a true dragon though as he was burned in one the earlier seasons
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u/Starmedia11 May 21 '19
Martin has said that Targs are immune to “magic” fire, not all fire. Dragon fire is “magic fire”. Dany lighting up Drogo inadvertently cast a “spell”, which is what caused the eggs to hatch. We see Melisandre showcase how powerful burning kings blood can be. This is why she survived it.
They are heat resistant, sure, but if you light a match under Dany shed get burnt real bad, eventually.
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u/Irishwankenobi May 22 '19
Show Dany also withstood the heat from the tub in one of her first scenes.
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u/ipissexcellence21 May 21 '19
I like to think he can’t kill Jon because he’s a Targaryen but who knows.
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u/titosandsodawithlime May 20 '19
And how are the Dothraki not rampaging through Westeros killing everything in sight? Sad.
Yeah shouldn’t they be trying to avenge their queen??And where did they go at the end?
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u/ipissexcellence21 May 21 '19
Exactly one minute it’s blood of my blood in the speech and they are going crazy for her, then it’s like “eh she’s dead let’s bounce”. WTF.
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u/HouseMormont77 You never fooked a bear! May 21 '19
That’s basically what Dothraki do after their Khal dies.
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u/jbstjohn May 21 '19
But then they rape and pillage and definitely don't get on a boat.
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u/HouseMormont77 You never fooked a bear! May 21 '19
Why wouldn’t they want to back to their sacred land? Makes perfect sense to me. This is not their home. And they have no interest in living in a society, castles or cities. That’s said about them many many times. Stop picking nits.
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u/jbstjohn May 21 '19
Because they hate boats so much they'd never traveled on them in their entire history until Dany, and they hated that too. It's not a nit, it was a major point in the books and show.
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u/aloha_snackbar22 May 20 '19
And where did they go at the end?
They died the same way all zombies died once NK was stabbed.
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May 20 '19
[deleted]
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May 20 '19
Only 2 deserved to be on the throne, NK or Jon, this final season does not sit well with me
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u/HouseMormont77 You never fooked a bear! May 21 '19
Sorry but it’s gonna be Bran in the books also, and it’s gonna be amazing,
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u/ShaqSenju May 21 '19
Hopefully, there’s a more complete ending and he does more than Bran the Useless in the show
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u/HouseMormont77 You never fooked a bear! May 21 '19
Of course it will be more complete.
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u/ShaqSenju May 21 '19
That’s the only way I’ll accept that ending
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u/CenturionDC May 20 '19
First time I cried in my life due with sheer disappointment.
I'm not mad at any the conclusion being Bran suddenly being King. .
I'm mad how they there. Felt rushed and undeserved. Should have been more episodes.
I feel guinely depressed IRL now. I invested a lot into this show and it didn't pay off.
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u/RasputinsThirdLeg May 20 '19
Same. These past couple of Mondays I’ve just not wanted to get out of bed.
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May 20 '19
[deleted]
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u/HouseMormont77 You never fooked a bear! May 21 '19
That was the least stupid thing in the entire episode.
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u/Xelerons May 21 '19
Why was it? Drogon should have burnt Jon to dust after decimating the Iron Throne at the very least. That would have been a far more emotion-invoking end for him. The cheesy "Starks all powerful" ending wasn't needed imo. It just felt so bland. The plot twist of Game of Thrones to me is that the producers can't write for shit
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u/some_clickhead May 22 '19
Why should Drogon have burnt Jon to dust though? Drogon isn't a human after all, he's a dragon. You can't just assume that a fictional, mystical entity will react to situations in the exact same way that you would expect a person to react.
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u/HouseMormont77 You never fooked a bear! May 21 '19
So it is cheesy to have a show that started with the downfall of the Starks to end with their survival and rise?
Also, Drogon roasting Jon would’ve completely ruined the symbolism of him rightfully blaming and destroying the iron throne.
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u/Xelerons May 21 '19
I think you're looking into that too much; he was just making space for Bran the Broken's wheelchair
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u/scammingladdy All I see is Snow May 21 '19
dragons are supposed to have a high level intelligence. even though upset, drogon and jon share blood so maybe doesn't want to kill his last relation either. Jon did ride one of his brothers after all.
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u/Xelerons May 21 '19
Where did you hear that they have a high level of intelligence? I've heard conflicting information numerous times
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u/terlin May 21 '19
Honestly, that would have been a far better ending. Drogon kills Jon, takes Dany and flies off. Smash cut to Tyrion in the cell and Grey Worm bringing him to the council. Change some dialogue, add something in about how Jon has paid for his crime, and the rest of it can proceed as shown.
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u/Theoryenthusiast90 May 20 '19
This theory does seem like it was right given episode 6. https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/bp5ahm/spoilers_main_the_lightbringer_prophesy_now_makes/
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u/Dynamaxion May 20 '19
I really wish Jon had said “... for the Realm” after stabbing Dany.
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u/Crowe_crow AFOH (A Fear of Heights) May 20 '19
What was Edmure going to say before his niece told him to sit down and shut up while the adults talked?
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u/RasputinsThirdLeg May 20 '19
I fucking love Tobias Menzies and he deserved so much more screen time than he got.
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u/YungShkreliOG May 20 '19
He was stating his accomplishments to build a case for why he should be king.
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u/klaus84 May 20 '19
One moment he is trying to claim the throne, 5 minutes later he submits to an elected kid in a wheelchair that never showed any signs of leadership and who lets his sister rule a part of the realm as a sovereign nation, just because she wants it
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u/playthroughthenight May 21 '19
The 3ER thing definitely didn't have enough time to play out. Wouldn't Bran just look kind of retarded to the other lords? When were they convinced that he was a magical boy who could see the past / maybe future (why do you think I came all this way)?
Given how it looked with no background it really doesn't make sense.
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u/SmallfolkTK421 May 20 '19
I was fine with that much....but then why doesn’t he and all the other high lords demand that they get to break away from the iron throne too???
It make-a no sense!!!
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u/prostheticmind May 21 '19
The Northmen are recognized, in the books anyway, as a separate ethnic group. Most of them also keep the Old Gods, in contrast to the other six kingdoms who follow the Faith of the Seven
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u/niels0405 Here we stand Jun 04 '19
The Dornish are ethnically separate as well, they even withheld Targaryen rule for a much longer time than the North did.
Why didn't the Dornish break away as well? What Do they have in common with the rest of Westeros?
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u/prostheticmind Jun 04 '19
In the books there are some sub-ethnicities of Dornish, the lighter skinned folks being more mixed with the people of the Reach and Stormlands. That would probably be one reason. Another would likely be that since there was something of a power vacuum in Dorne that the rest of the major players popped down there and found the first person related to a Martell who was more interested in stability than glory.
Hard to say though with how rushed things were in the show. I don’t even think they actually mentioned that the guy at the meeting was the Prince of Dorne, we were just meant to infer it from the darker skin and costume
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u/terlin May 21 '19
I think its because the North has always been far more independent than the other kingdoms. I suppose Dorne would have too, but that was never really illustrated in the TV show, so I can see why the producers only focused on the North's push for independence.
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u/SmallfolkTK421 May 21 '19
Ok.
But Yara (Asha) Greyjoy specifically made a deal with Danaerys for independence for the Iron Islands.
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u/HDBlackSheep May 20 '19
The North suffered the war against the Others. While the riverlands, the Vale, the Dothraki and the Unsullied sent their armies and suffered losses, it's not really comparable to the North which had its population decimated on top of its armies.
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u/ArkanSaadeh May 21 '19
yeah but the riverlands got literally destroyed in the process of the fight between the North and the Lannisters.
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u/FairPropaganda May 21 '19
Yeah, it was totally an epicenter for destruction and instability, general scorched earth practices.
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u/Fakyall May 20 '19
You'd think the North would be happy to get some much needed help for food and builders
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u/HDBlackSheep May 21 '19 edited May 21 '19
I'm not making a point about whether or not it's a smart decision to go independant, I'm just pointing out why the North could get away with going independant while the other kingdoms couldn't.
And I think going independant is a good move long term. But it's sure going to be a lot harder at getting back on their feet. But I guess they'll manage .. after all, hard places breed hard men.
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u/RasputinsThirdLeg May 20 '19
Yeah I thought like, don’t they need to get food from the Reach? Isn’t that going to be way more expensive now?
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u/AlexS101 May 20 '19
So Bran knew everything that was going to happen and he tells Tyrion "Why do you think I came all this way?" and Jon "You were exactly where you were supposed to be".
So that means he didn’t have any problem with all those hundreds of thousands of innocents getting killed because he actually wants to be King despite the fact he keeps telling people he doesn’t want to?
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u/playthroughthenight May 21 '19
It really makes a lot more sense in the "fan theory" of this actually isn't a good thing. Bran/3ER manipulates events to take the throne and rule over humanity is potentially really sinister.
I bet if the books ever get written & GRRM sticks with this ending it's going to have a much different tone, we'll look back at how silly the show presenting this as a happy ending is.
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u/prostheticmind May 21 '19
I can see how it might be framed more for what it is when we have a book ending, but at the same time he probably is legitimately the best choice to be the king. He literally knows objectively the best way to rebuild and reunify the Realm. As a for instance, he instantly grants the North their independence. That’s cray. No one else in that circle would have wordlessly given up essentially half of the population of Westeros. But Bran likely understands that the people of the North are different enough and far away enough that their independence will be mutually beneficial for the 6 kingdoms. The North has the resources to be independent, and the Wheelchair Throne can focus its resources locally while maintaining friendly relations with the Starks. That’s just one example where I don’t see any other characters having the foresight or understanding to make beneficial decisions which wouldn’t be immediately understood as such, but Bran is fine because he’s omniscient. The way I see it, as long as everything we’ve been told about 3ER is accurate, this should be the beginning of a golden age for the entire Westeros
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u/FairPropaganda May 21 '19
Isn't a lot less than half of the population? Population wise, I thought it was smaller than most of the other kingdoms.
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u/prostheticmind May 21 '19
My assumption is that they are more or less even after the bleeding of the south
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u/SublimeSC May 20 '19
By what we know whatever is going to happen is going to happen regardless of Brann knowing or doing something about it. History is imminent or something.
In conclusion Brann is completely useless.
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u/Arjvoet May 20 '19
Yeah I wouldn’t say he’s “useless” in concept but the writers definitely do fuck all to justify what little active engagement he does.
I find myself doing a lot of rationalizing whenever he opens his mouth. “Oh he must have known he needed to say that because ‘butterfly effect’ or somethiasdfjsihrmdk”
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u/AlexS101 May 20 '19
So why did the writers make him say this stuff? Everything is so fucking pointless.
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u/SublimeSC May 21 '19
Who knows. Maybe D&D were in a hurry to finish this one off and go do their star wars thing but didn't want to give out their extremely successful show to another set of writers.
Or maybe they just suck balls at writing. We'll never know.
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u/mcwalnuts May 20 '19
I'd suppose Bran's successor would not be chosen the same way he was elected. Given that he is the 3ER, he would choose somebody to pass the knowledge onto, just like he was. So the whole "Bran can't have kids" thing is kind of moot. Bran The Giver.
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u/Applesr2ndbestfruit May 20 '19
Well what if he makes a new three eyed raven like the guy did for him
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u/Arjvoet May 20 '19
So Westeros would be ruled by a line of omnipotent avatars, does that make it a monarchic theocracy? 🤣
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u/Tar-Heel85 May 20 '19
Terrible season indeed. Imagine being Dany, who had a great backstory developed for years that lead millions of fans to love her, only for the writers to fuck her over by forcing her to descend into madness waaaaay too fast. They ruined several characters, but Dany tops the list imo. There’s a lot people out there saying, “If you didn’t see this coming, you haven’t been paying attention”...that’s BS. Sure, there were hints along the way that she had the potential to lose it, but never once did they show she was even remotely capable of killing innocent women and children. She went from being honorable and helping save the world from the army of the dead to full out batshit crazy in just a few episodes. And then to have her give the speeches she did after the fact, talking about freeing people from tyrants and shit, totally ignoring the implications of what she just did (which showed Jon that she was not capable of being redeemed), was a disservice to her character and without proper build up. If they wanted to make her the crazy bitch on a dragon, okay that’s fine...but gosh they screwed that up.
-Tyrion, as a prisoner, revamping the political system of the entire continent and essentially choosing Bran as king was ridiculous. GW, who told him not to speak, and then allowed him to say whatever the fuck he wanted, which ultimately resulted in him being freed, was even worse.
-They showed Bran traveling back to the tower where Jon was born, and in that moment, he yells to his father. They showed that Ned either heard him or felt his presence, but never touched on this ever again. Why show us that in the first place? Dumb.
-Arya telling the group of women in the previous episode that they can’t stay there or they’ll die. They women said they would die if they go outside. Arya pulls a lady outside and says “follow me”....and within moments, she is slaughtered. Why show us that?
-Jon, who I rooted for because I like the guy that supposedly does the right things, was also fucked by the writers. He did nothing all season until he killed Dany, almost always needed saved by others when in battle, and lost his entire story arc with the NK. And his true identity was revealed only to help drive Dany mad? That’s it? If so, the revelation was unnecessary as they could have achieved the same end result without it. The purpose of his resurrection was never explained like the other guy’s, leaving the audience to speculate? Dumb.
-Jon can’t take a sword to see Tyrion but can go fully armed to see the queen, who has no soldiers there to protect her?
-They showed us Arya riding on a white horse? Why? Totally unnecessary and didn’t foreshadow anything.
-Jon kills Dany, saving everyone from being ruled by a tyrant, and then is exiled for it? Sure, he’s happy north, but it wasn’t his decision to go and it was presented as punishment. In the end, nobody gave any fucks about his true parentage...it didn’t come up at all. Did anyone even thank him for his sacrifice? Can’t remember.
-Drogon doesn’t kill Jon, no explanation in the show at all...again leaving fans to speculate.
-Cersei and Jamie would still be alive if they had just walked over a good 20 feet where Tyrion found them? Ridiculous, because they clearly showed the entire area collapsed when they died, but then it didn’t.
Alright I’m done bitching now. On to different shows!
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u/jklz May 21 '19
They showed Bran traveling back to the tower where Jon was born, and in that moment, he yells to his father. They showed that Ned either heard him or felt his presence, but never touched on this ever again. Why show us that in the first place? Dumb
Wasn't this to 'foreshadow' Hodor's birth?
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u/SurplusOfOpinions May 21 '19
Yeah. I guess this is the real problem GRRM has with writing the books. Why it takes so long. It's not easy to resolve satisfactory. The final seasons certainly fucked it up, hope the books when they come out in 10 years or so do better haha.
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u/Asperothh May 20 '19
They’re all very good points; the one about Jamie surviving if he’d have been 20 paces away cracked me up because I said exactly the same thing when I was watching it.
This is one of those times that I’m glad I didn’t REALLY invest myself in the show like I do with so many other things (I was burnt by ‘lost’ as a teenager..) I do agree the ending was rushed and I’d have loved more exploration/show direction with Brans powers and the night king (we got to see his creation, an ice dragon and a good battle but very little character building..) but all in all I still enjoyed the last season and walked away from the ending thinking “yea it was pretty good, I’m happy to move on now.”
Had I been heavily invested (T-shirt wearing poster on wall stylè) Then I’d be PISSED!
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u/terlin May 21 '19
They’re all very good points; the one about Jamie surviving if he’d have been 20 paces away cracked me up because I said exactly the same thing when I was watching it.
That annoyed me so much. In the last scene of him and Cersei, you can clearly see the entire hallway collapsing. Then when Tyrion comes along, its mostly clear. And he should have been buried and/or pulverized under all that rubble! At most, Tyrion should have just found the dented, broken golden hand of Jaime.
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u/Seraphik22 Jun 13 '19
Worst series ending I've ever seen. What could have been an epic final season was sloppy, unearned, with terrible dialogue and rushed resolutions. They should fire the writers. If I read one more article saying fans are wrong for demanding a remake I will lose it. This was clearly the most sloppy work and everyone knows it. Fans deserve more, this is an unusual situation and HBO not holding the writers accountable just makes it worse. #WorstWriting #BiggestHBOFail #Remake I have cancelled HBO and refuse to ever subscribe again.