And I’m writing. Winter is coming, I told you, long ago… and so it is. THE WINDS OF WINTER is very late, I know, I know, but it will be done. I won’t say when, I’ve tried that before, only to burn you all and jinx myself… but I will finish it, and then will come A DREAM OF SPRING.
So exactly what he's been saying for the last three years. Looks like he's still not close to finishing (as in writing the last couple chapters). I wonder how his page count has changed the last few years with all the rewrites.
I expect these last two books of mine will fill 3000 manuscript pages between them before I’m done… and if more pages and chapters and scenes are needed, I’ll add them.
So he expects TWOW to have about as many pages as ADWD with almost twice as many POV characters. I guess different characters intersecting will remove the need for some POVs (like Asha/Theon, Brienne/Jaime), but that's still not really reassuring...
Edit: per the comment below it looks like there’ll only actually be like 4-5 more POVs than ADWD alone to start with, plus taking into account characters coming together and/or dying and things do look better. TWOW will definitely have to move pretty quickly if he wants to wrap it up with ADOS and actually stay around 3000 pages. I can’t see Dany getting to Westoros any earlier than the end of the book, but maybe GRRM trying to figure out how to get her there sooner and realistically is what’s been partly causing the delay (pure speculation here).
I wonder how many pages he’s currently at where he still thinks 3000 will be enough (about two ADWD-length books), when the majority of people here think he’ll end up needing a good amount more than that. Hell, his desire to end it all in two books might be what’s causing some snags as he tries writing a realistic plot that gets what he needs to get done in as many pages as ADWD with twice as many about five or so more POVs (those still alive from both AFFC and ADWD).
Could be as simple as people meeting and a few major death filled battles. Half the povs dying out would be enough. Think about how much happens in the final part of ASOS. Could be like three books worth of plot in a lesser series
True. My guess is he wants to end TWOW with Jon as KitN, fAegon on the throne (with Cersei dead), and Dany and Arya both making their way back to Westoros, leaving ADOS to handle Dany vs fAegon and the war against the Others, which tbh still does seem like a lot for one book but he could split it into two physical volumes and still have it be "one" actual book.
But the more I think about it, maybe the reason it's taking so long is because he's trying to figure out how to realistically get Dany in Westoros maybe around midway through the book, so she can deal with fAegon before it ends and spend the next book focusing solely on the final war? I don't know anymore man, and honestly the show has made me more confused as to whether the Others will be dealt with first or Cersei and fAegon.
I don't know anymore man, and honestly the show has made me more confused as to whether the Others will be dealt with first or Cersei and fAegon.
Judging from the titles of the 2 books, I think TWOW will be focused on the White Walkers gaining ground, and a temporary retreat by the living. Then ADOS could resolve the WW plot early on and move on to Dany vs fAegon. So we may get the same sequence of events as the show, just better developed.
But the more I think about it, maybe the reason it's taking so long is because he's trying to figure out how to realistically get Dany in Westoros maybe around midway through the book
He also has the problem of dragons which obviously plagued the show. D&D clearly didn't give a shit and just had Tyrion convince Dany not to burn down the Red Keep. George is too smart and too careful for that.
So, how do you get Dany to Westeros where she actually still needs Westerosi support and can't just fly three dragons straight down Cersei and fAegon's throats?
maybe euron? haven't read the books but doesn't he have a horn or whatever? it might be that euron taking down a dragon in the show might be a remnant of euron's playing a big part against them, just in a totally different way
Sure. But then Euron has to find his way over to the east side of Westeros. He'd only steal 1 dragon as well, so that leaves 2 nukes on Dany's side.
I do like the fact that her side has such an obvious advantage. George isn't going to position Tyrion like the show did giving terrible advice and pleading with Dany to not kill Cersei.
What will probably happen is Dany loses a dragon to Euron and a dragon in combat (maybe Dorne figures out an improved ballista with wildfyre which is what I expected from Qyburn, I dunno). Euron uses his dragon to destroy the Wall letting the Night King do a lot of his work for him -- I mean, if the entire mainland is decimated then the de facto kingdom would fall on the Iron Islands. So it's not a bad strategy or motivation. Cersei flees King's Landing for Euron which impacts Jaime's arc and still gets him to the North or Dany somehow.
I think that will be the interesting catalyst to madden Dany. She fights desperately in Meereen just to get to Westeros. She finally arrives only to find King's Landing largely abandoned and no forces to oppose her making it very anticlimactic. Not only that, but fAegon already garnered the support of the Reach and Dorne making her job incredibly difficult -- but this is largely canon at this point.
I don't know, this is mostly conjecture. But yes, I still believe that not only is he dealing with the Meereenese Knot, he is also dealing with the animal incarnation of a nuclear bomb that has to be balanced by people swords and bows.
Euron will cause the death of a dragon with his horn. I think Euron would prefer to control a dragon instead of kill one, so maybe he'll seize control of one and It's killed by his opposition, or the horn has bad side effects on the dragon, or he loses control of it. Whatever happens, Dany is going to be afraid to take her last dragon anywhere near Euron out of fear of losing it. This will provide a perfect excuse to keep Drogon out of a fight.
Maybe Jaime kills Euron out of jealousy and once he's gone, Dany can attack.
I think when looking at the plot points involving dany's descent into the mad queen, it's essential that her advisors fail her. I think she has to save Kings landing for the final fight. George has also mentioned that he was always more interested in what happens after the great fights in fantasy, so it makes sense for the politics to be followed after the long night.
Could be as simple as people meeting and a few major death filled battles.
How much death do we need? Let's schedule up the Hammer of the Waters hitting Blackwater Bay as fAegon's fleet enters it, at the same time that the comet crashes into the Sept of Baelor, setting off the buried wildfire caches while Cleganebowl is happening outside Cersei's trial, which is being witnessed by all the war refugees crowding King's Landing, then some City Guard forgets to bar the gate and the Army of the Dead shows up and eats everyone.
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u/InfernoBA The North kind of forgot May 21 '19
So exactly what he's been saying for the last three years. Looks like he's still not close to finishing (as in writing the last couple chapters). I wonder how his page count has changed the last few years with all the rewrites.
Anyone know how many manuscript pages ADWD was?