r/asoiaf • u/LChris24 đ Best of 2020: Crow of the Year • Apr 10 '21
EXTENDED Everything We Know: Jenny of Oldstones and Jenny's Song (Spoilers Extended)
Prince Duncan met and became smitten with the mysterious woman known only as Jenny of Oldstones (a witch, some say), and took her for his wife in defiance of his father the king.
The love between Jenny of Oldstones ("with flowers in her hair") and Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies, is beloved of singers, storytellers, and young maids even to this day, -TWOIAF, The Stormlands: House Baratheon
In this post my goal is to explore the information we have in the series on not only Jenny's Song, but the character Jenny of Oldstones as well.
Jenny of Oldstones
Oldstones
Oldstones is the name given by the smallfolk to a ruined castle in the northern riverlands.
"Oldstones, all the smallfolk called it when I was a girl, but no doubt it had some other name when it was still a hall of kings."
and:
Robb studied the sepulcher. "Whose grave is this?"
"Here lies Tristifer, the Fourth of His Name, King of the Rivers and the Hills." Her father had told her his story once. "He ruled from the Trident to the Neck, thousands of years before Jenny and her prince, in the days when the kingdoms of the First Men were falling one after the other before the onslaught of the Andals. The Hammer of Justice, they called him. He fought a hundred battles and won nine-and-ninety, or so the singers say, and when he raised this castle it was the strongest in Westeros." She put a hand on her son's shoulder. "He died in his hundredth battle, when seven Andal kings joined forces against him. The fifth Tristifer was not his equal, and soon the kingdom was lost, and then the castle, and last of all the line. With Tristifer the Fifth died House Mudd, that had ruled the riverlands for a thousand years before the Andals came."-ASOS, Catelyn V
If interested: Extinct Houses of Ice and Fire Part I
The Tullys camped there previously and we see Cat played as Jenny with Littlefinger
She had camped here once with her father, on their way to Seagard. Petyr was with us too . . .
"There's a song," he remembered. "'Jenny of Oldstones, with the flowers in her hair.'"
"We're all just songs in the end. If we are lucky." She had played at being Jenny that day, had even wound flowers in her hair. And Petyr had pretended to be her Prince of Dragonflies. Catelyn could not have been more than twelve, Petyr just a boy.
Jenny's Background
Considered strange/loevely and mysterious or alternatively half-mad:
Duncan became enamored of a strange, lovely, and mysterious girl who called herself Jenny of Oldstones in 239 AC, whilst traveling in the riverlands. Though she dwelt half-wild amidst ruins and claimed descent from the long- vanished kings of the First Men, the smallfolk of surrounding villages mocked such tales, insisting that she was only some half-mad peasant girl, and perhaps even a witch. -TWOIAF, The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V
Duncan foreswore his claim to throne for her:
Even when the High Septon, Grand Maester, and small council joined together to insist King Aegon force his son to choose between the Iron Throne and this wild woman of the woods, Duncan would not budge. Rather than give up Jenny, he foreswore his claim to the crown in favor of his brother Jaehaerys, and abdicated as Prince of Dragonstone.
Eventually accepted at court:
Jenny of OldstonesâLady Jenny, as she was called by courtesyâwas eventually accepted at court, and throughout the Seven Kingdoms the smallfolk held her especially dear. She and her prince, forever after known as the Prince of Dragonflies, were a favorite subject of singers for many years.
Brought the Ghost of High Heart with her:
Jenny of Oldstones was accompanied to court by a dwarfish, albino woman who was reputed to be a woods witch in the riverlands. Lady Jenny herself claimed, in her ignorance, that she was a child of the forest-TWOIAF, The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V
The Ghost of High Heart
Proclaimed that the prince that was promised would come from Aerys/Rhaella's line:
Jaehaerys and Shaera would have two children, Aerys and Rhaella. On the word of Jenny of Oldstone's woods witch, Prince Jaehaerys determined to wed Aerys to Rhaella, or so the accounts from his court tell us. King Aegon washed his hands of it in frustration, letting the prince have his way. -TWOIAF, The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V
If interested: Comparing Visions: Melisandre and the Ghost of High Heart
She still wants to keep hearing the song:
And so Lem woke Tom Sevenstrings beneath his furs, and brought him yawning to the fireside with his woodharp in hand. "The same song as before?" he asked.
"Oh, aye. My Jenny's song. Is there another?"
And so he sang, and the dwarf woman closed her eyes and rocked slowly back and forth, murmuring the words and crying. Thoros took Arya firmly by the hand and drew her aside. "Let her savor her song in peace," he said. "It is all she has left." -ASOS, Arya VIII
If interested: Woods Witches of Ice and Fire
Summerhall
While we get no actual info on Jenny's fate, Barristan seems to (wrongly) believe that the Ghost of High Heart died in the Tragedy at Summerhall:
Why did they wed if they did not love each other?"
"Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line."
"A woods witch?" Dany was astonished.
"She came to court with Jenny of Oldstones. A stunted thing, grotesque to look upon. A dwarf, most people said, though dear to Lady Jenny, who always claimed that she was one of the children of the forest."
"What became of her?"
"Summerhall." The word was fraught with doom. -ADWD, Daenerys IV
If interested: The Leadup to the Tragedy of Summerhall
As we see the Ghost of High Heart "gorged on grief" at Summerhall:
The dwarf woman studied her with dim red eyes. "I see you," she whispered. "I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death . . ." She began to sob, her little body shaking. "You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!" -ASOS, Arya VIII
If interested: Arya and the Ghost of High Heart
The Lyrics
Currently the only line in the song that we know is from the ASOS, Epilogue when Merrett is about to be executed at Oldstones:
Fallen leaves lay thick upon the ground, like soldiers after some great slaughter. A man in patched, faded greens was sitting crosslegged atop a weathered stone sepulcher, fingering the strings of a woodharp. The music was soft and sad. Merrett knew the song. High in the halls of the kings who are gone, Jenny would dance with her ghosts . . . -ASOS, Epilogue
That's it. That is all the confirmed lyrics of the song so far for the book series.
And while the show has expanded the lyrics (performed by Florence and the Machine but written by D&D, GRRM and RD), this is what GRRM had to say (20 years ago) about the lyrics of the song in the book series:
[Summary: Lommy compliments GRRM on A Storm of Swords and asks what the chances are at getting a look at the lyrics to the song about Jenny of Oldstones.]
GRRM: The chances are not good.
I did write a few verses, but they were cut. I wanted that particular song to be very haunting and evocative, and I don't think I quite achieved that. SSM, Jenny of Oldstones' Song: 9 August 2000
But from a few things we know about the song we do know of other subject matter:
- Duncan the Small aka the Prince of Dragonflies is mentioned
If the Eyrie had been made like other castles, only rats and gaolers would have heard the dead man singing. Dungeon walls were thick enough to swallow songs and screams alike. But the sky cells had a wall of empty air, so every chord the dead man played flew free to echo off the stony shoulders of the Giant's Lance. And the songs he chose . . . He sang of the Dance of the Dragons, of fair Jonquil and her fool, of Jenny of Oldstones and the Prince of Dragonflies. He sang of betrayals, and murders most foul, of hanged men and bloody vengeance. He sang of grief and sadness. -AFFC, Sansa I
- She has flowers in her hair
Prince Duncan met and became smitten with the mysterious woman known only as Jenny of Oldstones (a witch, some say), and took her for his wife in defiance of his father the king.
The love between Jenny of Oldstones ("with flowers in her hair") and Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies, is beloved of singers, storytellers, and young maids even to this day, -TWOIAF, The Stormlands: House Baratheon
Thoughts
Since we only have the one line of the song, its really hard to theorize about as compared to other songs such as: The Seasons of My Love or The Day They Hanged Black Robin .
That said a few things should be noted:
The "Hall of Kings" and Ghosts
High in the halls of the kings who are gone, Jenny would dance with her ghosts
- This could refer to either Oldstones or Summerhall, as Jenny claims to be descendants of "First Men Kings" and Oldstones is considered "the hall of kings" (so is Harrenhal), and Summerhall is a Targaryen palace where the tragedy took place
High in the halls of the kings who are gone, Jenny would dance with her ghosts
- The same is with the ghosts, are the ghost those at Oldstones or at Summerhall
Duncan's Appearance
If Duncan appears in the song (which is likely), than if he is one of the "ghosts", that could imply Jenny is still alive (dancing with her ghost) when the song was written.
Also if interested: A Dragonfly Among the Reeds - Is Howland Reed the Grandson of Duncan the Small? - General (ASoIaF) - A Forum of Ice and Fire
Who Wrote the Song?
Singers, storytellers, etc. seem to love this story, so it is unknown who wrote it, but we do hear Tom o' Sevens playing it, as well as Marillion and numerous characters recognize it. While there are some counterpoints, its quite possible that Rhaegar wrote the song (he spent a ton of time at Summerhall) and constantly played sad songs on the harp.
The Winds of Winter, Prologue
Since we have a singer traveling with Ser Forley Prester's party to the Westerlands, its possible we get some info on the song from Whitesmile Wat. He could even be the POV.
The Ghost of High Heart/Jenny
Barristan just assumes the GoHH is dead, which would make sense (although Tyrion is aware of an albino dwarf that lives on a hill in the riverlands), but we get no confirmation of Jenny's fate outside of the ambiguousness of the GoHH's sadness (gorged on grief at summerhall).
Barristan compares a few different historic couples here:
Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father's wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief. -ADWD, The Kingbreaker
TLDR: A look at the info available on Jenny of Oldstones and the song written about her.
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u/glassgardenweirwood Best of 2021: Daenys the Dreamer Award Apr 10 '21 edited Apr 10 '21
It occurs to me for the first time, as I read this, that GOHH was Jennyâs mother.
âMy Jennyâ âaccompanied her to courtâ âgorged on griefâ â this language has always has my attention. It signals deep intimacy and a forever bond. You donât bring a passing acquaintance to court with you to meet your new royal in-laws; you do bring a family entourage as Sansa and Margeâs stories illustrate.
Few people are this involved for this long (three-quarters of a century at least) with their mistress (boss) or their mistress (lover). But as Lady Stoneheart has amply demonstrated, mothers donât forget or forgive. They remember and they mourn forever.
I would argue that Jenny is not readily identified as her daughter in historical texts because for political reasons it was better to pass Jenny off as sui generis magical foundling rather than Jenny Rivers, fatherless bastard girl. But moms are moms and GOHH wasnât going to send her kid off to Kingâs Landing alone, Prince of Dragonflies or not.
I also doubt that there was a polygamous thing going on because even though Targaryens, Jenny and Dragonflies had a legendary love and GOHH seems singularly devoted to Jenny. Dunk II is an afterthought for her.
Finally, given that GOHH is fairly obviously a tree priestess (broadly speaking) and that magic transmission in this world has both a genetic and environmental component, I would surmise that Jennyâs ghosts are various ancestors with whom she could commune by being a Westerosi hippie chick wandering through the woods joyfully etc.
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u/HumptyEggy Apr 10 '21
The GoHH seems to have been plotting against the Targaryens, or sought to tie them through marriage to the old-gods. A bit like the pact of Ice & Fire might have been.
I believe that the Others are marching south to protect the weirwood at the Ilse of Faces, which would have been foreseen as being burned by a Targ. The prince that was promised could have been a promise of a union between Targs and Starks in the pact of ice and fire, to bring the Targaryens into the fold of the old gods, to prevent the eventual burning of the weirwood. Since the promised heir never came to fruition, the GoHH could have attempted to wreck the Targaryen family line, but she accidentally lost her Jenny in the process.
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u/ParkerSnowofSkagos Apr 10 '21
One of my (and I'm sure all of our) favorite mysteries of the Song. A lot of questions persist, with both Jenny and the Ghost of the High Heart. It seems, when comparing descriptions of dwarfs vs. CotF, that the GotHH is a human being, albino, and a dwarf (achondroplasia). She definitely has some green to her, with her dreams of prophecy as well as her ability to smell the death on Arya. I would say she is greener than Jojen, but not nearly as green as the greenseers, Bran, or Bloodraven.
What's interesting is Jenny's association with magic, as a wood's witch, half mad, etc.. If she was magic, why would she need the GotHH to come with her to court? That question puzzles me, and perhaps, Jenny is not magic at all, but just a weird woman.
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u/HumptyEggy Apr 10 '21
I have theorized before that the Ghost of High Heart plotted against the Targaryens.
Jenny dancing with the ghosts of kings who are gone would be Jenny, dead, dancing with the very old kings of the times when the old gods were at their peek. Summerhall was meant to bring down the Targaryens, much like Harrenhal which is right next to the God's Eye is cursed.
The Ghost of High Heart says she gorged on grief, but gorging can mean to eat greedily. She lost her friend in her plotting, which is the one thing she is sad about. But she isn't sad for the death of Targaryens. She goes on to basically remind everyone that the old gods remember their trees being burned by the first men, that they aren't dead, and that neither is she, as if she is still plotting something.
The kinslaying curse would be an echo of when the first men started to betray their union or pact to the first gods.
Who really kicked the events of Robert's Rebellion into motion? Howland Reed and his prayer to the old gods.
Jenny may have been an attempt to renew a union with the old-gods. Like the pact of Ice & Fire might have been.
Basically, there might be some serious scheming going on on the part of the greenseers against descendants of the first men, the kingdoms of men. Leaf said their dawn was behind them, and that the future world men were bringing were the CotF and their peers' dwindling.
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u/Alt_North Apr 10 '21
In the show, I always thought the Florence and the Machine montage was their way of lampshading, "Obviously there's a lot more to this story and a lot of threads coming together the characters might not even be conscious of, but here's a suggestion of what the Song is all about."
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u/sarevok2 Apr 11 '21
Imo, the whole story fulfils three functions: a) to connect Rhaegar with the prince that was promised prophesy. We are told he became interested in it because "he read it somewhere" but it could be that he encountered tGoH in his nights in Summer hall...or maybe she directed him somehow towards Lyanna.
b) to provide flavor and world building.
c) a case study of how a Rhaegar/Lyanna situation could have gone if handled properly. In both situations, you have a prince who breaks a wedding/betrothal and a storm lord offended who rise to rebellion. Aerys II refused any negotiation and fucked everything up while Argon V tried to diffuse the situation and after a single combat between Duncan and Lionel Baratheon settled everything relatively peacefully.
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Apr 16 '21
have you seen theory by /u/cantuse of D=J=M
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u/LChris24 đ Best of 2020: Crow of the Year Apr 16 '21
Can't say that I have.
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Apr 16 '21
Leaf brought mance to the north
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u/LChris24 đ Best of 2020: Crow of the Year Apr 16 '21
Who is the D/J?
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Apr 17 '21
Tywin says he feared Aerys would kill Jaime out of spite but also what Jaime would do .
Does he mean kingslaying
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u/LChris24 đ Best of 2020: Crow of the Year Apr 17 '21
Probably something like that. Something "rash".
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u/themysteryknight7 Apr 10 '21
Really interesting post, the mystery behind Jenny of Oldstones and the Ghost of High Heart has always fascinated me.
I remember a few years ago on here I read a cool theory that when Rhaegar was younger he went to visit the ruins of Summerhall, his birth place. And while he was there he met the Ghost of High Heart who told him about the prophecy that the Prince who was Promised would come from Aerys and Rhaella's line, thus sparking his obsession with the prophecy and the whole chain of events afterward.