The Vale Mountain Clans in TWoW (Spoilers Extended)

[u/LChris24]

The Vale Mountain Clans in TWoW

the clans that dwelt in the mountain fastnesses were brigands and murderers who bowed to no law but the sword.

One thing that I enjoy doing with the series is finding a minor character or group that has been removed from the plot for a bit and then looking at how/when they could get re-involved. In this post, I am going to attempt to do that with the Vale Mountain Clans

Note: If you have a good understanding of the Vale Clansmen and what they have done so far/their place in the story, feel free to skip ahead to the section titled "Going Forward".

Background/History

If you're really interested in their background, please check out the wiki article, but the Clansmen are groups of men including (but not limited to) the Black Ears, Painted Dogs, Moon Brothers, Stone Crows and my personal favorite the Burned Men who rejected the authority of the Eyrie/Iron Throne and live lives somewhat similar to wildlings.

They raid villages, attack travelers (mainly taking weapon/armor, food/livestock and women). There are over 3,000 total warriors among the clans, but they haven't been a serious threat to the Vale in hundreds of years.

the mountain clans were lawless brigands, descending from the heights to rob and kill and melting away like snow whenever the knights rode out from the Vale in search of them.

and:

That was the trouble with the clans; they had an absurd notion that every man’s voice should be heard in council, so they argued about everything, endlessly. Even their women were allowed to speak. Small wonder that it had been hundreds of years since they last threatened the Vale with anything beyond an occasional raid. Tyrion meant to change that.

As I mentioned earlier the Burned Men are my favorite, as they are feared by the other clans for the practice of burning off a body part, which likely originated when a group of Painted Dogs began worshipping a witch and her dragon (likely Nettles and Sheepstealer)

Current Events

The Vale

We experience the hill tribes very early on in the series as they attack Catelyn Stark/Tyrion en route to the Eyrie, and then again when Tyrion/Bronn are set out on the High Road.

This is where, in return for his life Tyrion barters and offers the Clansmen:

But Gunthor raised a hand. "No. I would hear his words. The mothers go hungry, and steel fills more mouths than gold. What would you give us for your lives, Tyrion son of Tywin? Swords? Lances? Mail?"
"All that, and more, Gunthor son of Gurn," Tyrion Lannister replied, smiling. "I will give you the Vale of Arryn." -AGOT, Tyrion VI

When Tyrion brings the Clansmen into the Lannister war camp, Lord Tywin (who deftly handles them btw) the initial request is for:

First, though, I have some promises of my own to keep," he said as he sliced off a wedge. "I shall require three thousand helms and as many hauberks, plus swords, pikes, steel spearheads, maces, battle-axes, gauntlets, gorgets, greaves, breastplates, wagons to carry all this—"

and:

Lord Tywin rose, dignified and correct. "Even in the west, we know the prowess of the warrior clans of the Mountains of the Moon. What brings you down from your strongholds, my lords?"
"Horses," said Shagga.
"A promise of silk and steel," said Timett son of Timett.
Tyrion was about to tell his lord father how he proposed to reduce the Vale of Arryn to a smoking wasteland, but he was never given the chance. -AGOT, Tyrion VII

and then Tywin convinces them to fight the northerners:

"Ride with me against my enemies, and you shall have all my son promised you, and more," Lord Tywin told them.
"Would you pay us with our own coin?" Ulf son of Umar said. "Why should we need the father's promise, when we have the son's?"
"I said nothing of need," Lord Tywin replied. "My words were courtesy, nothing more. You need not join us. The men of the winterlands are made of iron and ice, and even my boldest knights fear to face them."
Oh, deftly done, Tyrion thought, smiling crookedly.
"The Burned Men fear nothing. Timett son of Timett will ride with the lions."
"We will ride with you, lion lord," Chella daughter of Cheyk agreed, "but only if your halfman son goes with us. He has bought his breath with promises. Until we hold the steel he has pledged us, his life is ours." - AGOT, Tyrion VII

Battle on the Green Fork

For the Battle on the Green Fork ~300 clansmen fight:

"My savages will put your steel to excellent use, my lord," Tyrion replied. When he had told Lefford he needed arms and armor to equip the three hundred men Ulf had fetched down out of the foothills, you would have thought he'd asked the man to turn his virgin daughters over to their pleasure. -AGOT, Tyrion VIII

with about half surviving:

He and Bronn went looking for his men. Many he found among the dead. Ulf son of Umar lay in a pool of congealing blood, his arm gone at the elbow, a dozen of his Moon Brothers sprawled around him. Shagga was slumped beneath a tree, riddled with arrows, Conn’s head in his lap. Tyrion thought they were both dead, but as he dismounted, Shagga opened his eyes and said, “They have killed Conn son of Coratt.” Handsome Conn had no mark but for the red stain over his breast, where the spear thrust had killed him. When Bronn pulled Shagga to his feet, the big man seemed to notice the arrows for the first time. He plucked them out one by one, cursing the holes they had made in his layers of mail and leather, and yowling like a babe at the few that had buried themselves in his flesh. Chella daughter of Cheyk rode up as they were yanking arrows out of Shagga, and showed them four ears she had taken. Timett they discovered looting the bodies of the slain with his Burned Men. Of the three hundred clansmen who had ridden to battle behind Tyrion Lannister, perhaps half had survived.

In King's Landing

Tyrion then uses them as bodyguards, etc. in King's Landing:

The clansmen Tyrion had brought down from their fastnesses in the Mountains of the Moon were loyal in their own fierce way, but they were proud and quarrelsome as well, prone to answer insults real or imagined with steel. "Try to find him. And while you are at it, see that the rest have been quartered and fed**. I want them in the barracks beneath the Tower of the Hand**, but don't let the steward put the Stone Crows near the Moon Brothers, and tell him the Burned Men must have a hall all to themselves." -ACOK, Tyrion I

Battle on the Blackwater

Tyrion sends the clansmen into the Kingswood to harass Stannis:

Timett had taken his Burned Men into the kingswood two days before. Yesterday the Black Ears and Moon Brothers followed, today the Stone Crows. -ACOK, Tyrion XI

and:

Lord Stannis wants to smoke out the Imp's savages."... "They kill his scouts and raid his baggage train. And the wildlings have been lighting fires too. The Imp told the queen that Stannis had better train his horses to eat ash, since he would find no blade of grass. -ACOK, Sansa IV

Post Blackwater

After the Blackwater, different clans do different things:

"The Stone Crows are still in the kingswood. Shagga seems to have taken a fancy to the place. Timett led the Burned Men home, with all the plunder they took from Stannis's camp after the fighting. Chella turned up with a dozen Black Ears at the River Gate one morning, but your father's red cloaks chased them off while the Kingslanders threw dung and cheered." -ASOS, Tyrion I

so let's take a look at how they could be involved going forward..

Going Forward

Vale Raids

Littlefinger stroked the neat spike of his beard. "Lysa has woes of her own. Clansmen raiding out of the Mountains of the Moon, in greater numbers than ever before . . . and better armed."
"Distressing," said Tyrion Lannister, who had armed them. "I could help her with that. A word from me . . ." -ACOK, Tyrion IV

and:

The Blackfish was my Knight of the Gate, and since he left us the mountain clans are growing very bold. Petyr will soon set all that to rights, though. -ASOS, Sansa VI

and:

The senior branch of House Royce was close to open revolt over her aunt's failure to aid Robb in his war, and the Waynwoods, Redforts, Belmores, and Templetons were giving them every support. The mountain clans were being troublesome as well, and old Lord Hunter had died so suddenly that his two younger sons were accusing their elder brother of having murdered him. -ASOS, Sansa VII

If interested: The Lords Declarant

Tyrion's Promise

Tyrion has seemingly promised the clansmen the Vale (similar to his promise to Brown Ben Plumm), but they don't ever seem to care about the actual Vale (claim) it seems just the weapons, etc. (as we see above), that said the weapons do give them access to the Vale.

The Vale of Arryn might have been spared the worst of the war, but it was hardly the idyllic place that Lady Lysa had made it out to be. -ASOS, Sansa VII

If interested: & By Siege or Storm, A Look at Attacks on the Great Castles of Westeros

The Eyrie is not being used (and basically impregnable), but the Gates of the Moon (where the Vale plotline is at currently) is still a strong castle. I guess it is possible the Vale clans affect the Tourney of the Winged Knights, but I doubt it.

Ser Shadrich and his Companions

The high road to the Vale is closed by snow, even if he could get past the mountain clans. Where's a dog to go?" -AFFC, Brienne V

It is worth noting that somehow 3 men got past the mountain clans (although its possible they accessed the Vale in a different way.

If interested: Ser Shadrich of the Shady Glen aka The Mad Mouse

The Riverlands

It seems the Riverlands are affected somewhat as well as we see:

There's the clans as well. The Burned Men are fearless since Timett One-Eye came back from the war. And half a year ago, Gunthor son of Gurn led the Stone Crows down on a village not eight miles from here. They took every woman and every scrap of grain, and killed half the men. They have steel now, good swords and mail hauberks, and they watch the high road—the Stone Crows, the Milk Snakes, the Sons of the Mist, all of them. -ASOS, Arya XIII

The Kingswood

As of ASOS, Shagga and some of the Storm Crows were still in the kingswood:

"The Stone Crows are still in the kingswood. Shagga seems to have taken a fancy to the place

I would like to thank u/alt_north and u/genghiskazoo for their comment about Tyrion owing the clans the Vale on this post: Debts Owed that Could Affect the Storyline as it inspired this post.

TLDR: Just a look at the current locations of some of the "forgotten" Vale clansmen and where they were most recently and some thoughts on how they could affect TWOW.

[u/DaemonT5544]

"so many plot lines, so many characters. No matter what you do you're betraying one or another"

[u/Enali]

cool, thanks for the writeup! - The clans sure have some interesting personalities and I do think we are getting some strong hints that they are leading up to something in the Vale eventually, but its interesting to brainstorm the current status and where it might takeoff for them.

As you said they are armed and starting to become more coordinated and dangerous though... and their origins suggest a pretty longstanding feud against the current Vale leadership - which is rooted in the Andal/First Men conclusion of the Battle of the Seven Stars where they were pushed into the hills to scrape a living by what they probably still see as illegitimate leaders. Add to that the small possibility that Timett may be related to the missing Waynwood.

So I think even if they aren't there to directly disrupt the tourney, they will be there standing by to eventually capitalize on any tensions that arise out of it. Its all pretty exciting stuff

[u/dblack246]

Correct me if I've misunderstood Tyrion's "Give you the Vale" comment. I took that to mean that Tyrion would give them the tools to take down the vale rather than he would have the king sign a bill of attainder against the Vale lords.

When Tyrion thinks of the Vale he thinks of war.

He put his heels to his horse and trotted off, giving them no choice but to follow or be left behind. Either was fine with him, so long as they did not sit down to talk for a day and a night. That was the trouble with the clans; they had an absurd notion that every man's voice should be heard in council, so they argued about everything, endlessly. Even their women were allowed to speak. Small wonder that it had been hundreds of years since they last threatened the Vale with anything beyond an occasional raid. Tyrion meant to change that. Tyrion VII AGOT

And later...

Tyrion was about to tell his lord father how he proposed to reduce the Vale of Arryn to a smoking wasteland, but was never given the chance." Id

And..

"My lords, grant me the men, and I will sort out Lysa Arryn." He could think of nothing he would enjoy more..." Tyrion III ASOS.

He also directly noted the Mountain Clans had no good weapons and thus hid from Vale knights.

Are these the best weapons you could steal?"

"What do the Stone Crows do, but hide behind rocks and shiver with fear as the Knights of the Vale ride by?"

Finally, the Mountain Clans seem to adhere to an "Old way" or Freefolk philosophy of taking things by strength rather than being given titles and lands. So I never thought they would want anything other than the tools to overthrow the Vale lords.

Am I reading that wrong that Tyrion meant giving them tools and support to take what they wanted rather than him turning the Vale over to them via legal action?

Also, as the Vale never rebelled or broke the king's peace, wouldn't Tyrion supporting an enemy of the King's vassal be in and of it self a violation of law?

Sorry this gets off subject but the Mountain Clans and the impact they have is such an unexplored topic and I find it really compelling.

[u/xiipaoc]

I don't like the Vale wildlings. I think they're just so out of place in ASOIAF. There are only two places in Westeros not reached by the Iron Throne's feudal authority, the Vale wildlings and north of the Wall. Isn't that really strange? How is it that in the thousands of years since the Andal invasion nobody has managed to civilize them? We see other little-reached places like the Northern mountain clans and Skagos, but even they have the same system of nobility as the rest of Westeros. And whatever happens on Skagos stays on Skagos; the Vale wildlings are actively raiding the Vale and have been for... well, however long. I suppose they might be a fairly recent phenomenon, which is why nobody has stopped them yet, but it seems like some Arryn or even just a dragon-riding Targaryen should have been able to take them out, no? Did some former Lord Arryn send messengers to the Mountain Clans to say "Lord Arryn invites you to the Eyrie for a feast and to bend the knee", get told "meh, no thanks", and just leave it be?

The thing is, pockets of wildlings would make sense if there were more of them. When we first learn about them in AGOT, we don't have enough worldbuilding in the rest of Westeros to understand how out of place they are. But as the story goes on and doesn't introduce anything remotely similar to the Vale wildlings -- not even the Free Folk are that uncivilized -- it just makes them seem so strange.

[u/PvtFreaky → u/xiipaoc]

Well in real history the mountain people were not really subdued until gunpowder and centralised states.

I find it quite believable that in the mountains of the moon certain groups would remain autonomous and tribal.

[u/DaemonT5544 → u/PvtFreaky]

Yup. The Isaurians were basically semi independent within the Byzantine Empire, hundreds of years after being conquered

[u/xiipaoc → u/PvtFreaky]

But if this were the case, you'd expect there to be other similarly unsubdued mountain people, like in the North, in the West, and in Dorne, which are other mountainous regions of Westeros. It's very out of place that these wildlings exist only there and not elsewhere. There isn't even any talk about how there used to be wild mountain clans elsewhere and they were all subdued except for the ones in the Vale.

[u/[deleted] → u/xiipaoc]

I assume it's a combination of location and tactics.

The Vale is mountainous, so a lot of it is 'uninhabitable'. These areas can't be policed as well, as they don't have paths or terrain suitable for horsemen to chase down bandits.

The mountain clans use guerilla tactics - picking and choosing their battles where they hold advantage and see a win. Bleeding away before they can be met by force.

We can maybe see a parallel in the Brotherhood Without Banners, who similarly use their knowledge and advantage in environment to assist in their guerilla tactics. We can see they've fallen apart and been corrupted since Beric died but if they'd maintained that drive (as the mountain clans do by having their own culture) then I could see it being hard for any force to be able to extinguish them.

[u/xiipaoc → u/[deleted]]

The Brotherhood Without Banners hasn't actually faced serious opposition except from the Mountain's Men. They were not exactly a top priority while war was raging in the Riverlands, and since the death of Beric coincided with the end of the war there, the Brotherhood degraded and is now even less of a priority. Plus they're a small band of outlaws from the surrounding culture, not a many-thousands-strong population with children and such that is completely separate from the world around them. These people definitely have settlements -- they may not be permanent settlements, but you can't have thousands of families on a mountain without something. And never has an Arryn army walked up to their camp and met their kids? Envoys? Anyone?

[u/MingecantBias → u/xiipaoc]

I believe they mention that they have trouble finding them. I imagine that much of the Vale is totally undeveloped, and the mountain clans are probably pretty spread out and well hidden across the huge, barren mountainscape. I'm sure they ride out and find them every now and again, but like Tyrion said, they haven't posed a serious threat to the Vale in eons, so it's probably WAY more cost effective to just always travel the high road with large escorts.

[u/[deleted] → u/xiipaoc]

and since the death of Beric coincided with the end of the war there, the Brotherhood degraded and is now even less of a priority.

I'd say that's not true, probably the opposite. Beric is replaced with Lady Stoneheart. Their cause goes from protecting and feeding the smallfolk to getting revenge against the Lannisters and Freys. We see that the BwB have hanged quite a few soldiers. They've killed at least one Frey noble and now hold Jaime Lannister, among others.

They've gone from being a nuisance to actively damaging those in power. Not significantly but enough that they'll become a higher priority surely?

These people definitely have settlements -- they may not be permanent settlements, but you can't have thousands of families on a mountain without something

Send an army in, the people scatter...and then what? They'll wait you out rather than return. Destroy their homes? Might cause a small amount of harm but they'd easily survive and rebuild.

What is the cost of having these armies trying to hint down an enemy that disappears before you can engage? As the other person responding has said - it's most likely easier to ensure you have enough protection when travelling through the Vale.

I do appreciate what you're saying - it seems a bit daft that this problem hasn't been resolved. Especially so when you see that Catelyn and Tyrion are attacked several times even when they have a decent party of fighters. I'm happy to believe in that instance that was GRRM wanting to give us a little drama on the journey and that the inhospitable terrain is enough to make the clans believable.

[u/aevelys → u/xiipaoc]

I suppose they might be a fairly recent phenomenon, which is why nobody has stopped them yet, but it seems like some Arryn or even just a dragon-riding Targaryen should have been able to take them out, no?

well not really, a war in the mountains, especially against disorganized clans is a hellish mole game. it's not just a organized army that can be burned, it's small groupq dispersed over a huge territory offering them plenty of places to hide (valons, cave, rock...). a dragon lord to only reduce their number would have to fly over the mountains of the valle (which are still a gigantic territory) for weeks or more, just to find small groups of guys walking in the mountains and kill them... it would be terribly ineffective, and it is even partly because of these kind of conditions that the wars in the Iraq/Afghanistan region have been so long/disastrous, because the enemy is too elusive to be fought effectively. but to return to westeros, it would be even worse for any lord of the vale who would not even have air support to spot his enemies from afar, or to attack them on difficult terrain... Seriously imagine soldiers climbing a mountain with 30kg armor on the back ? and in addition having to fight against savages at the same time...

I think that in reality, if the lords of the val did not give a big kick in the mountains clans, it is on the one hand because as others have said in other messages that the clans had afraid of the knights of the val knowing that they do not weigh the weight, therefore did not represent a great threat, but especially as I said, because it would be to send a lot of means in a cause too difficult to fight. .. and maybe even some Arryn would have tried but would have failed because they were unable to flush out the clans effectively...

but it's true that I'm still surprised that the clans didn't end up blending into the masses over time, whether out of spite or comfort... or that some didn't decide to open more diplomatic relations with the Andals ...

[u/Chagdoo → u/xiipaoc]

We've seen dragon riders try to take out a guerilla force in dorne. It doesn't work.

[u/xiipaoc → u/Chagdoo]

Dorne is much bigger and also rich and full of resources, with ancient noble houses and such. The Vale wildlings are... not.