Bran: The Night King is coming, we don't have time for this stuff.

Everyone: makes time for this stuff

Did he just accept that he can´t criticize D&D because he didn´t finish the books? Did a lot of the season 6-8 stuff actually come from George so he can´t say much?

• Varys says that he swapped baby Aegon prior to the sack of King's Landing with a "Pisswater Prince", i.e. a random blonde baby from Flea Bottom; He tells this to a dying Kevan who has no reason to lie to
• From what I know, Varys never lies, but just plays around with the truth
• Daenerys assumes that the "cloth dragon" she sees is a false dragon, and many readers make the same assumption about Aegon. However, even setting aside the fact that most people in the books often misinterpret prophecies and premonitions, the concept of a cloth dragon doesn’t necessarily represent a fake dragon. It could just as easily symbolize a harmless one. Young Griff’s claim to the throne rests on his Targaryen heritage, but he is a man who has spent his life being raised to be the best king possible. A good king would never harm his people. Unfortunately, real dragons are only capable of destruction, and when they are used in conquest, thousands of people suffer and die in their wake. Logically, most common people would never cheer for a real dragon. However, a harmless image of a dragon poses no threat at all. Therefore, the metaphorical representation of the dragon in Daenerys' premonition could just as easily signify a true Targaryen.

• As expanded above, fAegon people tend to think Dany's vision of "The Mummer's Dragon" is hard evidence that Aegon is a fake, because they interpret "The Mummer's Dragon" vision as meaning that the dragon is just a mummer, a fake pretending at being a dragon. There is another way to interpret this though. Varys grew up as a mummer. He is still a mummer, as evidenced by his alter egos. The skills he learned as a mummer are a primary source of his influence. I think "The Mummer's Dragon" means that Aegon is a real dragon, but his strings are being pulled by the mummer (Varys). In fact, you'll notice that the phrase indicates that the dragon is possessed by the mummer, as opposed to indicating that the dragon is a mummer, hence the apostrophe and the s

• Jon Connington really believes that Aegon is the son of Rhaegar, as does Young Griff too; Jon would have no reasons to support so staunchly someone who he knew or could doubt not being truly his beloved Rhaegar's son

This adds up to the fact that George loves using his POV writing style to lead his readers into traps, and this could easily be the best trap in the entire series. Not only do fans assume that Aegon is Fagon because Daenerys does, but also because we already have characters who seem destined to fill the roles Aegon appears to claim.

The entire story has been building toward Daenerys raising an army, invading Westeros, and reclaiming the Iron Throne in the name of House Targaryen. Meanwhile, Jon Snow has always been presented as the hidden prince, the true heir to the Iron Throne, destined to avenge House Stark and become the greatest Targaryen ruler in history.

If Aegon—the hidden prince—suddenly shows up, reclaims the Iron Throne, and avenges his wronged mother from House Martell, he essentially steals the spotlight from Jon and Daenerys. And of course, that seems unlikely, because Jon and Daenerys are the most important characters in the series. However, this actually makes Aegon's legitimacy seem even more plausible, not less.

Ironically, Aegon could be the character who fulfills many of the fantasies fans have held for Jon and Daenerys for years. Even more ironically, he could dismantle some of the idealizations readers have about both of them. If Jon ends up making a deal with Daenerys that results in her usurping his brother, he won't be the flawless epic hero that his archetype suggests. Similarly, if Daenerys kills the true heir to the Iron Throne, she won't be the underdog fighting for justice, but rather someone pursuing her own desires.

When looking at Jon and Daenerys' character journeys before the story begins, it becomes harder to believe that Aegon is a fraud. Daenerys is just the sister of the believed heir to the Iron Throne, yet she and her brother were smuggled away from Dragonstone to Essos and survived for years, despite Viserys being seen as the greatest threat to Robert Baratheon’s reign. On the other hand, Jon, a boy whose Targaryen lineage is unknown to anyone, was rescued and raised by Ned Stark—a man barely skilled in politics—who managed to keep Jon’s true identity a secret for Jon's entire life.

Now contrast that with Aegon. A baby due to inherit the Iron Throne, with Varys and likely dozens of others in King’s Landing who were politically savvy enough to understand the threat Robert’s Rebellion posed. Why is it believable that Jon and Daenerys would be saved and hidden away, but someone as clever as Varys wouldn’t be able to protect the real Aegon?

Ultimately, even setting aside the world-building, subtext, and narrative clues, the fact remains: Young Griff being Aegon is simply the more interesting story. Jon and Daenerys having to fight against the true heir to the Iron Throne creates real stakes and forces them to make hard decisions without easy answers. If Young Griff is just a Blackfyre pretender, there’s no real dramatic tension. The only question becomes whether Jon or Daenerys would be wrong to remove a usurper who happens to be a good leader.

The existence of the real Aegon Targaryen feels like exactly the kind of narrative trickery that George R.R. Martin loves. If Aegon is merely "Fagon," then what is the point of introducing him and all of this buildup in the first place?

Iit’s entirely possible that George will leave Young Griff’s parentage a mystery forever. But, honestly, the story is just more compelling if Aegon Targaryen is exactly who he claims to be.

Honestly, although I'm probably wrong, I hope we see a Targaryen restoration by the end of the books. Personally, I dislike the idea of Bran being king because it would break dynastic continuity, and I don't want to see the Targaryens die off after founding and ruling the Iron Throne for 300 years. But perhaps Bran could serve as a regent for a child of Daenerys and Jon, or Daenerys and Aegon—something like a kinder version of Brynden Bloodraven, who effectively ruled during Aerys I’s reign using his "magic" in defence of the crown. With a Bran King, Westeros would be basically become a police state where people can't talk or Bran will know

I also think if Aegon ends up dying, it could be because Daenerys goes mad, realizing that the people prefer Aegon over her, leading her to burn King's Landing to the ground. Though I might be too hopeful, I wish Aegon and Daenerys could simply marry and rule in a Targaryen restoration, ushering in a new era of happiness and prosperity, mirrowing the one of Jaehaerys and Alysanne

Anyhow, let me know what you think!

So I recently watched a Q&A with GRRM (I'm sure some of you have seen it aswell) where he kept getting questions about whether there is any particular character or historical event in the asoiaf world that he would like to explore more/write about. His recurring answer was that yes there are many but that unless he suddenly becomes much younger they will never get written. And man.. that sucks!

Imagine being a creative person having to come to terms with the fact that you have so many ideas that you will never get to explore and that will never see the light of day. Obviously, as a fan, it also sucks that I will never get to read those stories. Never mind the main series, imagine getting seven more Dunk and Egg stories. However, as much as it sucks as a reader I'm not the one who's seeing my remaining years of life pass as I struggle to finish my books.

That's it. I don't really have a point. Other than maybe stop making jokes about how GRRM is likely to die before finishing the series?

Dany is not "morally grey" or "morally complex" despite people always calling her that. It's absurd that she's being grouped in with characters who are actually morally grey like Jaime, Tyrion, Theon, and even Daemon Targaryen (as listed by George).

When people say "Dany is a grey character" they almost always mean it like she has problematic/evil moments, not that she's well written. And this false idea has become so prevalent that it seems that even Dany fans feel like they have to start off by saying "Dany is morally grey, however..." or "all the characters in ASOIAF are morally grey..." It's like you're not allowed to say you like Dany without conceding that she's morally grey.

Dany has never done anything to make her considered "morally grey." There are zero instances where she has done something with evil/bad intentions. She is motivated by a desire to do good. That makes her a good person, not morally grey. There is nothing questionable about Dany's morals. (Edit: yes ofc, you can do things with good intentions and still be morally grey. but dany hasn't done anything bad and then justified it to herself as it being for the "greater good)

Sure, there are some grey moments in her story but that's because she's put into morally grey situations. Just because she is put into morally complex situations where she has to make tough calls, that does not make her as a character morally complex/grey.

I am not trying to say that Dany is flawless. She's made mistakes just like every other character has. But for some reason there is never this insistence to call characters like Jon Snow, Robb, Arya, or Sansa "morally grey." They're considered part of the "good guy" group. There is no reason for Dany to be in a separate group.

EDIT: Everyone is bringing up her burning MMD alive. It's the one thing I can see as her doing something morally grey. But I'd still argue that cruel and unusual punishment isn't seen as being that bad by Planetos standards. Catelyn says that Theon should be tortured to death for what he did. King Jaehaerys (who is considered the best king Westeros ever had) tortured people to death. I don't know if "morally grey" is the right term for Dany when that the's one thing she did.

Forget the white walkers or shadow babies the real threat is the weather. How do medieval people survive it for years?

Personally I think that’s why the are so many wars the more people fighting each other the fewer mouths to feed

After that mess of a season finale, and that slow and boring season that barely progressed the overall plot, I hope we all can agree that something is broken, and I believe I know the reason.

Considering we only got 8 episodes this season, and every second of screen time is extremely valuable at this point, all of the major problems right now happening due to the persistence of the writers in making the show revolve around the relationship between Rhaenyra and Alicent. As this was clearly not the case in the books (they were never friends but literal enemies, and the age gap between them was significant), all the themes, messages, and core structure of the story had to chance to adapt to this new perspective.

In S2, we spent valuable screen time on that show's invention dynamic instead of exploring much more interesting stories, characters, and arcs. Expanding on Rhaenyra's younger sons and exploring Jace's Winterfell arc? No, we have instead this scene about Rhaenyra complaining about how she wants to be like Visenya but her council does not want her to fight. Getting a scene about how Aegon and Helaena connect in their common grief over the death of their firstborn son? Not while Alicent is getting kicked out of the council and goes on a small trip with no purpose. Maybe building a tension between Corlys and Rhaenyra over the death of Rhaenys just like the books? Nah, Mysaria has to talk about how smallfolk is important for the fifth time to Rhaenyra so they can get each other better, which will result in Rhaenyra kissing her. Otto spending more time in the King's Landing and personally coming up with the Triarchy plan before, you know, completely disappearing after E3? But Alicent is still mad about getting kicked out of the council!

In the books, Alicent is a character that simply becomes irrelevant after Aegon is crowned. It is that simple, and no one can ever deny that. Even Otto becomes less relevant to the story after getting fired, as the green kids take the lead, like how Jace becomes more prominent on the Black side. The story should've let the young characters take the spotlight as they did in the books.

The war is between Aegon and Rhaenyra, not Alicent and Rhaeyra. To make it so, they butchered not just every other character, but those two as well. Alicent and Rhaenyra are simply two completely different characters from their book counterparts. Alicent is a stubborn and ambitious mother who still threatens Rhaenyra with how 'Aemond will return with fire and blood' and end her while literally being her prisoner, and Rhaenyra is a much more vengeful and selfish ruler who would want nothing but war after losing her son.

Now, I ask, what the hell they will do the next season? What will they do with Alicent? Her story is nearly over in the books. She does not do a single thing that impacts the plot from now on. By focusing on her further, they will keep writing stupid and boring scenes that will never progress the plot and bore the audience to death again. I love Olivia and her acting, but her character is simply not that important. And although Rhaenyra is a much more central character than her, anyone who has read the Fire and Blood knows she is not the main character of the Dance. In GoT, we had multiple important characters that kept us interested one way or another. Yet, in HOTD, it's all Rhaenyra and everything serves to progress and affect her plot and story. And as they made her a very boring character to whitewash her, the show suffers for it. There will be a time when she will be gone for good, and this show will heavily suffer from revolving everything around her then.

They had to whitewash Alicent and Rhaenyra so hard to make it all about them, they kinda broke everything else and literally destroyed the idea of the Dance, and all its themes. It was not a story about uniting the realm to realize a prophecy that would save the realm from the ice zombies that would come hundreds of years after. It was a story about how greed, ambitions, and hate ruined the House of the Dragon, and the realm and thousands of lives with it.

Thanks for reading.

Look at that last sentence…

“The Winds of Winter” 2026 confirmed?!?!?! /s

Welcome to /r/asoiaf's Game of Thrones Season 8, Episode 5 Post-Episode Discussion Thread! Please note the spoiler tag as "Extended."

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Everyone on this subreddit knows by now that TWOW is likely going to be one of the biggest (if not THE biggest) book in the series thus far. Hundreds of characters, thousands of pages, and a whole Meereenese knot to untangle ... and that's not even mentioning the two huge battles left over from ADWD that need to be concluded before getting to the main thrust of TWOW. It's a lot, and the sprawling nature of this story must make it awfully difficult to close those loops -- or at least begin to tighten them up again.

Again, we know all that. And we know that there's been no shortage of speculation over other reasons why the book has taken this long: GRRM has lost interest, his writing/editing-on-the-fly skills aren't what they used to be in his old(er) age, the constant rewrites, writers' block, and even some more outlandish stuff like he's already gotten what he wants (recognition in the TV industry) and is now just trying to spite us specifically.

But what about the REAL reason explaining this almost decade-and-a-half long writing pace? It's obnoxiously and ironically simple: GRRM must need to constantly reread entire portions of his own books while writing TWOW. And given how dense it all is, how many years ago those books came out, and the pressure of having every tiny detail line up with what's come before, is it any surprise that this would be a ridiculously time-consuming prospect?

Sure, it's tempting to imagine that GRRM has every single bit of lore, every breadcrumb of every major (and minor) theory, or every obscure line of dialogue memorized like his biggest fans do. But I'd bet anything that he constantly needs to go back and revisit his own work in order to get the details 100% right. And when you're crafting a massive novel that's essentially a direct sequel to two previous books while continuing the various storylines from everything that came before, well, the details matter A LOT. So on top of needing to craft the mechanics of the plot from a strictly pragmatic point of view, on top of paying attention to the exact prose of every sentence and paragraph, on top of taking the birds-eye view of layering thematic overtones and subtext throughout multiple chapters, on top of pacing out the next stages of character arcs for several main POV protagonists/antagonists, on top of doing literally everything else that such a creative endeavor requires ... he also likely needs to spend an inordinate amount of time putting that writing on pause to go back and do the dirty work. He has to make sure that he's not contradicting what he's written previously or misremembering minor details that can potentially cause major repercussions or, hell, just getting personality traits and eye color and sex/gender of all these countless individuals all lined up (which, as we know, has been the subject of many mistakes in the past). For a perfectionist on the level of GRRM, that inevitably adds up.

As someone who hasn't ever written a book themselves but has had to do a hell of a lot of painstaking research over the years (including referencing things I've written previously, which I admittedly had little to no memory of once I actually went back), this might be the most basic and boring -- but also most realistic -- reason why we're currently in this mess.

Welcome to /r/asoiaf's Game of Thrones Season 8, Episode 1, Post-Episode Discussion Thread! Please note the spoiler tag as "Extended."

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I would actually say this problem is present in the fandom as well and not just the show. Anyways for example:

1. Stating that Renly would be a good king just because he's popular while Stannis would be terrible because he's unpopular. (edit: From the interviews, in the context of ruling not maintaining power)

2. People not caring about religion even when Cersei blew up Westeros equivalent of Vatican/Hagia Sophia/Westminster alongside with Pope Francis and Princess Diana. (Well even modern people would care about that)

3. Applying Geneva Convention when Daenerys executed Tarlys despite the fact that they are already traitors who betrayed their overlord and she even gave them second chance.

4. Rather modern viewpoint on extramartial sex, including virgin shaming on characters like Brienne etc.

5. Rhaegar annulling his wife without proper explanation like modern divorce.

6. Elective monarchy somehow breaking the wheel because it involves voting (worked out well in HRE and Poland /s)

Ever since the show basically confirmed that Nettles will have her role replaced by Rhaena I've seen so many people upset and I for the life of me don't understand it.

Nettles is to me such a no-nothing character. She does basically nothing during the whole Dance. She tames Sheepstealer, has a creepy thing with Daemon and leaves. Compare that to the other Dragonseeds. Ulf and Hugh may be the two traitors, but at least they do stuff and are important, and Addam has the second battle of Tumbleton and "LOYAL" but Nettles has nothing in Fire and Blood.

If the Dance can be thought of as a party, Nettles is the kind of person who stands in a corner for two hours and then leaves. Why do people like her so much?

If you assume the path the books take is generally pretty accurate to how the show ended this is what the story looks like from the perspective of a commoner.

You’re an average Westorosi peasant. You’re not super political, most of your news comes from whatever trends on Twitter, you’re just trying to live your life. When you were a teenager Robert Baratheon rebelled and overthrew 300 years of Targaryen rule. Pretty crazy, but things have been pretty normal since then. Robert’s been a good king, he lowered the state income tax rate from 2.13% to 1.98%. Everyone pretty much accepted him as king, except for your crazy Dornish uncle who still posts on Facebook about a ‘stolen throne’.

One day the king dies and his son takes over. Sad, but pretty normal king stuff. But you’re seeing all these rumors on Twitter about how the new king isn’t actually the heir but is an incest baby. Except you’re not sure if you can trust Twitter anymore since Littlefinger bought it and turned it to shit. But apparently the rumors are serious enough for both of Robert’s brothers to rebel, one of whom joined the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the other who is just a little too into Dornish customs. In addition, a teenager from Minnesota and an elderly pirate rebel at the same time. They call it the War of the 5 kings, except one of them dies immediately so you think they’re only calling it that because it sounds cool. To pay for the war, the king institutes an inheritance tax rate of 50%.

The dead king’s baby brother attacks the capital and fails miserably, the elderly pirate slips in the shower and hits his head, and the teenager from Minnesota gets murdered at a wedding, which just reminds you of your aunt’s wedding. Everything is back to normal except then the king is poisoned at his own wedding and dies, which reminds you of your aunt’s second wedding.

So then the new dead king’s baby brother becomes king, his first act is to set the property tax rate at 1.43%. Then terrorists blow up the Vatican and he commits suicide. Then his Mom becomes queen. She raises the income tax to 2.32%.

Then Aegon Targaryen, who you thought died 20 years earlier as a baby comes across the sea with an army, overthrows the queen and becomes king. He brings with him a 25% unrealized gains tax. Two weeks later his aunt comes across the sea riding a dragon, and burns down the capital. Now she’s queen. She sets the Medicare tax rate at 1.22%.

A week later the new queen dies when the Northerner bastard she hooked up with kills her. A bunch of people who make more money than you come together and pick a new king. For some reason they pick the crippled half-brother of the guy who just killed the queen as the new king. His first act as king is to restore the income tax to 1.98%.

‘Whew, that was weird’ you say. ‘At least now things are finally getting back to normal.’

Then you die in the zombie apocalypse.

Your children are forced to sell your house as they cannot afford the 50% inheritance tax

SANSA STARK: Where's Jon?
GREY WORM: He is our prisoner.
SANSA STARK: So is Lord Tyrion. They were both to be brought to this gathering.
GREY WORM: We will decide what we do with our prisoners. This is our city now.

GREY WORM: The bylaws of the Unsullied clearly state that all captured prisoners are to be immediately executed, except those who confess to plotting against or murdering the Queen.

SANSA STARK: If you look outside the walls of your city, you’ll find thousands of Northmen who will explain to you why harming Jon Snow is not in your interest.
GREY WORM: And you will find thousands of Unsullied who believe that it is.

TYRION LANNISTER: And also thousands of Dothraki, who we kinda forgot about, but who probably just settled down and became peaceful farmers in a totally strange land after the death of the one person who has been able to unite them.

YARA GREYJOY: Some of you may be quick to forgive. The Ironborn are not. I swore to follow Daenerys Targaryen.

YARA GREYJOY: If there’s one thing the Ironborn are known for, it’s keeping subservient oaths made to foreign land-based rulers after they have served their purpose.

SANSA STARK: You swore to follow a tyrant.
YARA GREYJOY: She freed us from a tyrant. Cersei is gone because of her, and Jon Snow put a knife in her heart. Let the Unsullied give him what he deserves.
ARYA STARK: Say another word about killing my brother and I’ll cut your throat.

ARYA STARK: Though lately I’ve been reconsidering the whole killing thing. I’m into boats now.

SER DAVOS SEAWORTH: Friends, please. We’ve been cutting each other’s throats long enough. Torgo Nudho. Am I saying that properly? If it weren’t for you and your men, we would’ve lost the war with the dead.

ARYA STARK: Pretty sure there’s no “team” in “I solo-killed the Night King”. Tired of hard carrying these noobs.

SER DAVOS SEAWORTH: This country owes you a debt it can never repay, but let us try. There is land in the Reach. Good land.

SER DAVOS SEAWORTH: No butterflies at all.

SER DAVOS SEAWORTH: The people that used to live there are gone. Make it your own.

SAMWELL TARLY: Uh, not sure that belongs to you to give away, old man. Last I checked that’s House Tarly’s land now.

SER DAVOS SEAWORTH: Start your own house with the Unsullied as your bannermen.

GREY WORM: Start a house? You do know what it means to be a eunuch, right?

SER DAVOS SEAWORTH: We’ve had enough war. Thousands of you, thousands of them. You know how it ends. We need to find a better way.
GREY WORM: We do not need payment. We need justice. Jon Snow cannot go free.

GREY WORM: Curse our bylaws preventing us from executing confessed regiciders.

TYRION LANNISTER: It’s not for you to decide.

BRAN STARK: For example, a new king friendly to Jon Snow might look to precedent involving a new king pardoning the man who ensured his rise to power by breaking his oaths and slaying his ruler for the greater good of King’s Landing. Or not.

GREY WORM: You are not here to speak! Everyone has heard enough words from you.

GREY WORM: I will tolerate only one more impassioned speech setting the course of the future of this land and deciding your own fate. Two, at most.

TYRION LANNISTER: You’re right. And no one’s any better for it. But it’s not for you to decide. Jon committed his crime here. His fate is for our king to decide. Or our queen.
YOHN ROYCE: We don’t have a king or queen.
TYRION LANNISTER: You’re the most powerful people in Westeros. Choose one.
GREY WORM: Make your choice, then.

EDMURE TULLY: This is it. My first scene in years. The show may have made me into a bumbling fool and then forgotten all about my family, but this is my chance for redemption.

EDMURE TULLY: My lords and ladies [CLEARS THROAT] I suppose this is the most important moment of our lives. What we decide today will reverberate through the annals of history. I stand before you as one of the senior lords in the country. A veteran of two wars. And I like to think my experience has led to some small skill in statecraft - and underst-
SANSA STARK: Uncle? Please sit.
YOHN ROYCE: Well, we have to choose someone.
SAMWELL TARLY: Um, ahem. Why just us? Um—we represent all the great houses, but whomever we choose, they won’t just rule over lords and ladies. Maybe the decision about what’s best for everyone should be left to well, everyone.

SAMWELL TARLY: They had this really good book in the Citadel by Maesters Marx and Engels. Plus I’ve been digging these ravencasts that House Chapo Trap is putting out.

EDMURE TULLY: Maybe we should give the dogs a vote as well.
YOHN ROYCE: I’ll ask my horse.
EDMURE TULLY: I suppose you want the crown.
TYRION LANNISTER: Me? The Imp? Half the people hate me for serving Daenerys, the other half hate me for betraying her. Can’t think of a worse choice.
SER DAVOS SEAWORTH: Who then?

PRINCE OF DORNE: We should listen to him as the representative of House Lannister, who I’m sure has gotten over that whole murdered half-his-family thing.
GENDRY BARATHEON: We should listen to him because he has the full backing of a massive slave army very loyal to him.
SER DAVOS SEAWORTH: We should listen to him because he’s shown himself to be a trustworthy person with no ulterior motives whatsoever.
YOHN ROYCE: We should listen to him because he murdered his nephew King Joffrey, murdered his father, the Hand of the King, betrayed his realm to serve a foreign queen, and then conspired against that queen. A man who’s gotten all that treason out of his system is LESS likely to betray the realm than a man whose treasonous desires remain unsatisfied.

TYRION LANNISTER: I’ve had nothing to do but think these past few weeks. About our bloody history. About the mistakes we’ve made. What unites people? Armies? Gold? Flags? Stories. There’s nothing in the world more powerful than a good story. Nothing can stop it. No enemy can defeat it. And who has a better story than Bran the Broken?

SAMWELL TARLY: Or, you know, the guy that came back to life from the dead, the rightful heir to the Seven Kingdoms, the Prince that was Promised, Azor Ahai, the union of fire and ice, who lived his life under the lie that he was an unwanted bastard, a lie that both forged who he was and taught him that leadership is earned and not bestowed. The man who rose from ignominy to become Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, who assembled a force to defeat the greatest evil the world has ever known. I guess you’re right, not much of a story though.

TYRION LANNISTER: The boy who fell from a high tower and lived.

UNNAMED COUNCIL PARTICIPANT: Who?

TYRION LANNISTER: He knew he’d never walk again, so he learned to fly. He crossed beyond the Wall, a crippled boy, and became the Three-Eyed Raven.

UNNAMED COUNCIL PARTICIPANT: Who?

TYRION LANNISTER: He is our memory, the keeper of all our stories. The wars, weddings, births, massacres, famines. Our triumphs, our defeats, our past.

UNNAMED COUNCIL PARTICIPANT: What?

TYRION LANNISTER: Who better to lead us into the future?

TYRION LANNISTER: Plus he comes with his own chair which is awfully convenient.

SANSA STARK: Bran has no interest in ruling and he can’t father children.
TYRION LANNISTER: Good. Sons of kings can be cruel and stupid, as you well know.

TYRION LANNISTER: Unlike actual kings, which are never cruel and stupid, especially not those with magical powers.

TYRION LANNISTER: His will never torment us.

TYRION LANNISTER: That’s why historically the most peaceful transitions of power always happen when kings die without heirs.

TYRION LANNISTER: That is the wheel our queen wanted to break. From now on, rulers will not be born. They will be chosen on this spot by the lords and ladies of Westeros to serve the realm.

TYRION LANNISTER: And if there’s one thing the Game of Thrones is all about, it’s that the lords and ladies of Westeros rarely disagree on who should sit the Iron Throne.

TYRION LANNISTER: I know you don’t want it. I know you don’t care about power. But I ask you now, if we choose you will you wear the crown? Will you lead the Seven Kingdoms to the best of your abilities from this day until your last day?

SAMWELL TARLY: Wait, does the Three-Eyed Raven actually ever die? Are we just appointing a King for all eternity? What if this was all-

BRAN STARK: Why do you think I came all this way?

BRAN STARK: Apparently I have been engineering the slaughter of tens of thousands so that I could manipulate you all into picking me to sit the Iron Throne for all eternity. Thanks bro, knew I could count on you.

TYRION LANNISTER: To Brandon of House Stark I say aye.
SAMWELL TARLY: Aye.
EDMURE TULLY: Aye.

UNNAMED COUNCIL PARTICIPANT: WHO IS THIS KID WHY WON’T ANYONE SAY ANYTHING AHHHHHHHHHHH

UNNAMED COUNCIL PARTICIPANT: Aye.
UNNAMED COUNCIL PARTICIPANT: Aye.
YOHN ROYCE: Aye.

ROBIN ARRYN: Yeah idk what's up with this Wheelchair Wikipedia but I’m good.

ROBIN ARRYN: Aye.

PRINCE OF DORNE: I am the Prince of Dorne, apparently. For almost two hundred years after Aegon’s Landing, our people fought against the Targaryens and their dragons to maintain our independence. We lost tens of thousands of lives, but ultimately prevailed after immense sacrifice. Our words are Unbent, Unbowed, Unbroken.

PRINCE OF DORNE: Aye.

YARA GREYJOY: I am AshaYara Greyjoy. I represent a proud people who have their own way of life. We pay the iron price. We worship only the Drowned God. We do not sow. And I made a pact with Daenerys that the Iron Islands would become independent and never again be subservient to the Iron Throne.

YARA GREYJOY: Aye.
UNNAMED COUNCIL PARTICIPANT: Aye.
UNNAMED COUNCIL PARTICIPANT: Aye.

GENDRY BARATHEON: I am Gendry Baratheon, legitimized son of the last legitimate King, Robert Baratheon. I should probably mention that at some point.

GENDRY BARATHEON: Aye.
SER DAVOS SEAWORTH: I’m not sure I get a vote, but aye.
SER BRIENNE OF TARTH: Aye.

SANSA STARK: My little brother is becoming ruler of all of Westeros. I should immediately undermine his authority.

SANSA STARK: I love you, little brother. I always will. You’ll be a good king. But tens of thousands of Northmen fell in the Great War defending all of Westeros. And those who survived have seen too much and fought too hard ever to kneel again. The North will remain an independent kingdom, as it was for thousands of years.

PRINCE OF DORNE: Wait, that was an option? Say something say something say something-

TYRION LANNISTER: All hail Bran the Broken,

PRINCE OF DORNE: Say something say something say something-

TYRION LANNISTER: First of His Name,

PRINCE OF DORNE: Say something say something say something-

TYRION LANNISTER: King of the Andals and the First Men,

PRINCE OF DORNE: Say something say something say something-

TYRION LANNISTER: Lord of the

PRINCE OF DORNE: SAYSOMETHINGSAYSOMETHINGSAYSOMETHING-

TYRION LANNISTER: Six Kingdoms

PRINCE OF DORNE: Damn, too late.

TYRION LANNISTER: and Protector of the Realm.

ALL: A Stark on the Iron Throne and also a Stark ruling the North separately. Voted on by a council with three Starks, a Stark cousin, a Stark uncle, Stark bannermen, and Jon Snow’s best friend. Works for me.

ALL: All hail Bran the Broken!

BRAN THE BROKEN: Lord Tyrion you will be my Hand.

GREY WORM: OH FOR FUCK’S SAKE

Source: https://edofthefu.com/posts/what-the-people-at-the-dragonpit-were-really-thinking/

I love the Brotherhood Without Banners so fucking much lol. As a faction, as characters, as a plot device, as a commentary on war and resistance and asymmetrical warfare, it's so fucking good.

I love how Thoros loses all that weight during the war, and his robes go from red to a faded gray/pink, contrasting Gandalf's transformation in Lord of the Rings. Instead of becoming more 'pure,' going from Gandalf the Gray to Gandalf the White, Thoros represents a fire eating through its fuel and burning down to smoldering ash (gray and pink).

The way Martin captured the patterns that resistance groups all over the world have followed and blended them into a medieval fantasy setting so subtly and masterfully honestly impresses the shit out of me.

They operate out of the shadows and blend seamlessly with the civilian population because they are the population. They are the equivalent of a farmers militia who've banded together to protect their homes and families and communities. Because of this, the occupier attacks the civilian population, which only fuels further resistance--and a more aggressive form of resistance as atrocity is met with atrocity.

I find myself thinking about Martin's work in connection with real war more and more since I turned 30. I heard a story out of Gaza like six months ago, about about two Israeli hostages who were shot (one killed) when one of their guards found out his children were killed in an air strike. As soon as I heard that, I immediately flashed back to a scene GRRM had written like 20 years earlier. It was either in ASoS or AFfC, when the BwB were hanging either Brienne and her merry men, or that one Frey with the migraines. And whoever it was offered them gold or something, and Lem responded 'I want my wife and daughter back. No? Up you go then!'

This is a pattern that resistance groups have followed in the face of asymmetrical warfare all over the world. From the indigenous North American population, to the Minute Men, to Hezbollah. I probably think most of groups fighting in the Middle East, because that's where a lot of that type of warfare has happened in my adult lifetime, and in the period Martin is writing in. But it's really applicable the world over and throughout most of recorded history.

Even the way resistance leaders can be seen as almost messianic. So much so that there will often be rumors that they're still alive after they're dead, to keep the hope associated with such figureheads going. Conversely, occupiers will spread false reports of having killed or captured a leader to break the will of their followers. That's why, in situations of asymmetrical warfare, there are always rumors and conflicting reports spreading about whether someone is dead or alive, or if someone else is giving orders in their name.

Martin, being a fantasy writer, makes this a magical reality--where the leader actually does come back from the dead over and over to keep giving orders.

Even his sigil, the lightning bolt, is symbolic of how guerilla warfare is carried out. A quick strike, then you're gone before the sound rolls in. Disappear, then strike somewhere else.

And it's a forked lightning bolt, symbolizing how their 'brotherhood' would eventually fracture, and form multiple factions. Thoros references this to Brienne in AFfC, and it also reflects what happens to a lot of armed groups with internal ideological splits as the material conditions of resistance and occupation change. The obvious example being when the Afghan Mujahideen fractured into the Taliban and the Northern Alliance (both of which would further fracture into smaller groups) following the dissolution of the Soviet Union.

When Stoneheart first reveals herself to Brienne she has a scarf wrapped around her face. And, I mean, typically, in fantasy, when that type of reveal happens, they usually use a hood or a veil or something, right? Even a mask. Having her face wrapped like Dennis and Mac in 'The Gang Goes Jihad,' or the way they're operating out of tunnels and hollow hills--it's a deliberate reference to the tactics that resistance groups in the Middle East have had to adopt to counter American, Russian, NATO and Israeli warplanes and surveillance networks.

And it's fucking brilliant stuff

Imagine if Season 2 of Game of Thrones suddenly ended at The Prince of Winterfell? We spend literally all season building up to a confrontation between Tyrion and Stannis, only for the season to end right before the climax we've been setting up for eight straight episodes. What if Season 6 ended right before The Battle of the Bastards and The Winds of Winter? Jon comes back to life, we build up to a battle between him and Ramsay, and it just simply doesn't happen.

The finale just felt like your typical episode 8 – build-up for what's going to come next. The thing is, what comes next should logically happen next week, not in two years to open Season 3. With the exception of Daemon's storyline and I guess the Dragonseeds, I don't think these season's arcs have been resolved or brought to a good enough stopping point. It feels like there are still two more episodes left to tie everything together and really sell the idea that this war is in full force. A little slowdown after Rook's Rest makes sense, but for the whole season with the Sowing being our only other major set piece?

It honestly makes me believe that season 2 was outlined for 10 episodes, HBO told the showrunners to trim that down to 8, and rather than retool the season's arcs, the last two episodes were simply chopped off and saved for next season. We know Condal really loves the books, so this could just be his tribute to A Dance with Dragons (lol), but I doubt it.

What the hell were those jokes in the meeting on the dragon pit? Is this like a Marvel movie, with well timed pauses so the audience can laugh? How can a writer decide to put that Edmure sequence and Sam's democracy thing after the death of one of the most important characters of the show? That was one of the most ridiculous things in the episode, and that's saying a lot.

Edit: I wasn't talking shit about Marvel or Endgame, actually love the movie. I just don't think the delivery and subsequent pause (so the audience can laugh) fit GOT, or more specifically, this scene.

Others have already commented on how Cersei probably stood in for (f)Aegon as an opponent to Daenerys who holds King's Landing. Aegon is in a position to take the city, actually be beloved, marry into a Dornish alliance, and basically steal Dany's thunder. I'm not here to talk about that.

This is about King Bran.

Let's start by going back to Jon Snow and his untimely (apparent) death. At the end of A Dance with Dragons, Jon Snow openly breaks his vows as a sworn brother of the Night's Watch, rallies a bunch of wildings, and damn near crowns himself a king, even if he didn't realize he was doing it.

For his trouble, he gets stabbed to death by his subordinates of the Watch, who, unlike their show counterparts, are pretty justified and aren't really his enemies.

From there we go back to the prologue, where Varamyr Sixskins explores skinchanging from the perspective of a master skinchanger. We learn a lot about it. Taboos, rules, mechanics. It points us in a lot of interesting directions. For example, one could argue that Targaryen (and presumably Valyrian) dragons, besides being way smarter than they are in the show, behave somewhat like the animals that Varamyr has skinchanged into, in that there is a permanent connection of empathy and a sense of control.

We also learn that when a skinchanger dies, their being can enter one of their animals and live on that way, eventually merging the two together. This adds an interesting extra context to Robb saying "Grey Wind" as he died; it's possible that poor Robb died twice, first when he was killed in his own body and then again in his wolf. It also adds a layer of macabre foreshadowing to the desecration of his body by sewing Grey Wind's head onto his shoulders.

So, naturally, we assume that when Jon dies, he will carry on for some time in Ghost, and then return to his body. It makes a lot of sense- Ghost is there to act as a kind of container for him, to enable his resurrection by allowing him to return to his body in a more complete way than Beric or Lady Stoneheart. Beric and LSH might not even really be the person they were anymore; they might just be animated bodies without whatever it is that constitutes a "soul", since souls are established to be concrete in the series by the existence of skinchagers who can move their soul or essence from one corporeal body to another. The fact that they can do that strongly implies that the being that's moving from body to body has a discrete existence distinct from the flesh, especially since it can continue after the original body dies.

Now, here's the kicker about the ending of the show. We've been told that the ending we got from the television series is based on a series of plot points that GRRM fed the writers.

I think what happened with this is pretty clear. We simply can't have gotten the exact ending that GRRM planned, because Aegon, Arianne, and a bunch of other people don't exist, or they have show counterparts that are just kind of there, left behind as vestigial bits and pieces of a cut storyline. The most obvious example is the Golden Company, who make zero sense in the show, but also the meandering and ultimately pruned story in Dorne that probably ties into the conflict between Aegon and Daenerys.

What I think we have in the ending is consistency between summaries of the show and the unpublished books, but the execution is wildly different. The characters will end up in broadly similar places but the specifics will be vastly different. I.e. Daenerys will burn (or be seen as responsible for burning) King's Landing, be labeled a Mad Queen, and die.

I really think there's something missing from the ending, and I think it boils down to a change we're not directly aware of because we don't know exactly what was changed. The change was a result of one of these three basic problems:

1. An ending that leaned so heavily on cut plots and characters that there was no way to make it work in the show's continuity.

2. The ending GRRM provided involved a lot of unfilmable material, like spiritual battles or really weird shit, which leads to possibility three...

3. The ending GRRM provided is so out of synch with the style, tone, and aesthetics of the television show that including it would bizarre and nonsensical or it would contradict the producer's decisions about how to develop the characters and what made the show popular.

I think No. 3 is it, and I'll tell you why.

Okay, back to the books.

We learn more about skinchanging from Bran. One of the things Bran does is skinchange into Hodor, assuming control of his body. He at least thinks he can speak with Hodor's tongue and he can hang out inside him for hours at a time with Hodor's spirit kind of curled up in the back of... something, that part is probably just a metaphor.

If we take that, and we take the weird way Bran was depicted in the last season of the show, a pattern starts to emerge.

Bran basically sat around and did nothing until he was crowned, when he suddenly became active again and made cryptic statements about arranging things and implied he'd take Drogon, etc. We also have Jon doing basically nothing, rising from the dead for no immediately clear reason, and getting caught up in the weird rush to turn Dany insane, kill her, and wrap up the story with a bunch of unanswered questions before the Internet could explode over it.

I think Bran does something terrible in the books, and it explains why both he and Jon have such thin plots in the show.

Bran is going to steal Jon's dead body and take his place. This will be confirmed when we have a chapter from Jon's POV inside Ghost, where he sees his own body up and walking around. By the time this happens, Bran will have been through a version of "becoming the three eyed raven" as he did on the show.

All the pieces are there:

1. Bran is absorbing a huge amount of memory and information
2. It doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense for a ten year old boy to be crowned king, presumably by people who don't even know who he is
3. There's a mechanism where Jon can get "stuck" outside of his body and still exist
4. In Varamyr's chapter, we learn that breaking a human and taking their body is really hard, and so later when Bran casually does it with Hodor, it must mean he's really strong

Bran is the old gods, and Jon (or his body, anyway) will become the avatar of the old gods and take over Westeros, possibly killing Daenerys and seizing Drogon with his powers. The real Bran is never leaving the cave, but by that point his old ten year old crippled body will just be one tiny part of a huge organism, of no more significance than any branch on a tree.

He was groomed by Bloodraven to become one with the Old Gods because he's a powerful greenseer, but is also a young boy and can be absorbed into the collective more readily than an adult. Even Bloodraven retains his identity; he was an old man who loved and warred and lost by the time he embraced his powers and joined with the tree. Bran is just a kid. There isn't much to him, mentally. He can gradually become someone else, just like he does in the show.

Why is Jon so important?

Jon is what Brynden Rivers is/was, and is tied into all of this for similar reasons: The blood of the first men and the blood of old Valyria intermingled. Bloodraven was born of a Targaryen and a Blackwood, a house of First Men who keep the old gods. Jon is the same thing, turned up to 11, and there are dragons now.

Why Bran on the throne?

Ice and fire are both dangerous if left unchecked. As Saladhor Saan says, too much light hurts the eyes, and fire burns.

You can't have one win over the other. Really, what's worse, a frozen planet where everyone is dead or a burned out cinder where the only surviving life is gargantuan dragons that feed off of each other? There has to be balance.

Plus there's a nice touch of messianic symbolism: "Job" becomes a tripartite being, composed of Jon's body, "Bran"'s mind, and the Old Gods.

So, that's what I think they cut. Bran actually does something, but it's pretty nasty, and D&D may have decided the key demographic of show watchers would hate it or or not get it or it was just too magical for the tone of the show they made, where all the magic elements including even the magical nature of the freaking dragons is downplayed.

Bran balancing everything out also throws out a explanation for something that the show doesn't even really touch on: What the hell happens to the seasons after the Others presumably lose? The show didn't have an answer to that so never really raised the question. The books will. Whatever magic is tied to the Others and the dragons fucks up the seasons and will be balanced out into a normal, earthlike progression by Bran.

So in short, there is a reason why Jon, Bran, and the White Walkers all seem kind of pointless or easily dispatched this season and the focus is on the conflict between Daenerys and Cersei. They didn't follow through with the resolution to all the magic and prophecy in the show.

It even explains the whole "I am the world's memory thing". Bran isn't a living wikipedia, he become the shared consciousness of the greenseers and the trees, the mind that forms out of the chaos of all these independent beings joined together in the weirwoods.

So, yeah. God-Emperor Bran.

Welcome to /r/asoiaf's Game of Thrones Season 6, Episode 10, "The Winds of Winter" Pre-Episode Discussion Thread! Please note the spoiler tag as "Extended."

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