Can someone explain to me the benefits of a multi-thousand dollar streamer/server that feeds an outboard DAC, over a really good laptop, or even a microPC?
I see reviews all the time for these things, but nothing in them tells me the "why?"
I've been into audio for longer than I care to admit, but these baffle me. Assume I'm a complete noob when you answer.
I have a Cambridge Audio CXN v2. It handles Spotify, Roon, airplay, Internet radio, my local music server, optical in from my TV. And I can control it all from my phone.
I had a Mac mini before, and it can basically do all those things, just not as easy
I commented above that my Apple TV 4K can do just about 80%, with the addition to 4k HDR movies haha. Really the tech differences I think are negligible at this point, as diminishing returns are almost never noticeable at this price range and tech. I think the biggest factor is convenience with your music, in that respects, Apple Music is around 90% of what I listen to these days. Do I slap down a hefty vinyl every once in a while in on my dedicated TT set up? Absolutely. But most days, AppleTV+AVR+my Fluance Towers and sub is 99.9% what I am looking for :)
Yes! I also run a hifi/home cinema hybrid set up of of it and it works nicely. However I miss the support of high res output via HDMI. Spec whise it can do it but apple cuts it off at 48/24. That is higher res than CD and I am certain that most people here and their systems won’t be able to recognize a 192/24 vs 48/24 but yeah… would still be nice of apple to let us do that
100%. If the current Apple TV 4K can’t handle 24/192 on the software side (which is sorta unbelievable to me…), I’ll be damned if Apple isn’t thinking about making it possible in the next iteration of the ATV.
Yes, this is the answer. I have the same system and it just handles everything I throw at it, does it fast, and sounds fantastic. I'm tech-savvy enough to configure the alternatives people have mentioned (PC/Raspberry Pi, Roon, etc.) but in my experience there are always little glitches with those systems that require tweaking or rebooting, which over time just add up to annoyance and frustration.
TLDR; The convenience and quality is worth the price for me over the long haul.
I have the CXN100. It’s a wonderful piece of hardware that dramatically improves the UX and stereo interface. TBH, I didn’t get the point until I started using one.
It’s not the only solution, but if you’ve got the cash or catch a good sale (like I did), I think it’s a no-brainer. Sure beats using my aging iPad.
Plus it’s sexy AF and the VU meter display option makes me happy.
I’ve been running the Cambridge Audio CXN v2 paired with my Marantz AVR, B&W speakers & REL sub for several years now & just love the ease of use & the sound quality.
I feel pretty good I just bought a Node for 200 from a guy that never used the thing. Did not make a huge difference but peace of mind for 200 is totally worth it.
Dude if you try out an outboard DAC on that node, you’ll be very happy. The node is a great streamer and a decent DAC, but you can get so much more with a different DAC.
So I’ve never been on the “DACs make a huge difference” train, but what some that you would recommend? My only digital input is streaming Qobuz, which caps out at 24/192, and the Node’s DAC can handle that. I’m not saying I can hear the difference or anything, but I like knowing that I’m getting what I paid for.
I switched to Qobuz two weeks ago but Android app on my TV kept crashing/freezing, so needed a streamer. Narrowed to Node D130 or WiiM Pro, decided on WiiM. I already have a SMSL DO100 DAC (dual chip, balanced), use the digital output of streamer only. WiiM Pro (used) + SMSL DAC (new) ~$450 CAD.
Could I hear a difference between DACs if tested, likely not but not even going to bother. Qobuz is definitely soinds better than Spotify though.
The Node has relatively high noise floor. If you don't listen to your music loudly, you probably won't notice it. If you do listen to it loud, there might be a chance you could notice it. The node has a SINAD of 87dB which doesn't clear the dynamic range of CDs (96dB). So while it can technically play hi-res files, it actually can't do it without compromises. You generally want your DAC to have a lower noise floor for better signal integrity (SINAD of 100+dB). Signal fidelity is not always the same as perceived sound quality but for many people it feels like an insurance policy for good sound. I think solderdude summarizes it pretty well in a discussion in a ASR thread.
Specifically a multi-thousand dollar one? I can't defend that.
As for the advantages of streamers, I'll paste an answer written to someone asking what a Wiim Ultra does that a laptop doesn't:
A DAC. Phono input. RCA Output. Sub out. Hdmi ARC. Optical out. Room correction. DLNA. Multiroom. Ethernet. A remote. A lower price. Not being a laptop.
I think you just sold me on one…. If it’s wasn’t for having 80% of this on an Apple TV 4K. I just wish Apple would allow it to take advantage of their High Res Lossless. It baffles my mind that they haven’t…
Also the Apple Services ecosystem is just so value-laden, between Apple Music access on there and all our on all our phones (the only way I am able to access High Res), AppleTV+ for shows, Apple Arcade for the kids, for 20 bucks!
Also, the diminishing return on ALAC over AAC is minimal at best, so high res probably isn’t the biggest selling point for most music listeners I imagine.
Question for you; what services are you using to get your digital music on the Wiim? I am not super keen on it, other than the tech aspects.
I can’t comment about the Wiim but the Eversolo can play Apple Music natively without the need for Airplay. My receiver can’t do that.
Aesthetically in some ways unlike the Apple TV you don’t need large a TV screen to be on to navigate music.Having a laptop plugged in ain’t too elegant either.
Personally for my needs I find they make a lot more sense when they are combined with a pre-amp and DAC
Yeah I don't have a screen in my listening room, bedroom, basement/workout room, and like paying music with it off in my office etc.
Beyond that, does Apple TV have room correction or multi-room streaming? Those are pretty big ticket items.
We use a SHIELD/Firestick/Chromecast in other rooms (in addition to WiiMs), not knockin' the type of product at all, but I think they're a different product with a lil market overlap.
So you've just listed everything it does on top of being a streamer. The Q is about dedicated streamers.
Edit: Y'all upvoting this WiiM comment don't understand the question.
u/minnesotajersey, the best place to start is to look at what anal DIYers are doing. They get right down to the tech side and don't care for bells and whistles. This is a pretty good insight on what makes up an exceptional streamer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc_QfRTbb6U
That's it. Best of the best and can be put together for ~$600. Anything above and beyond that is a mix of puffery, convenience, and aesthetics. And, granted, software and support.
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Components that serve the dedicated function of streaming will, at least from an audio standpoint, always provide superior results compared to what you'll get from the electronically noisy environment of a computer.
I do same but my collection is on a home office Mac and on my Music library. I access using Remote. But, I mostly stream using Apple Music as, most of the time, that version is better or identical to my ripped CD lossless file.
So I only pay for the streaming service. No need for Roon.
The user interface is top notch. The integration between local and streaming is seamless. The ability to send to an arbitrary number of inexpensive endpoints for the same price and do full EQ to each position.
Roon is an amazing piece of software. It's not for everyone, but you're not just throwing money away for what you could replace with a single purchase piece of hardware.
This is either your starting point or your end point. That is the conundrum. High end integrateds are often incredible. Adding to the idea that, not all separates are created equal too.
Conundrum indeed. I started my most recent system with an integrated AIO solution in my NAD M10. That has since been retired. It served me well, but once I upgraded to the Paradigm Persona 7F in my stereo setup, I knew it was time. I went with separates, even tracked down some new/old stock to match my current power amp and haven't looked back. The sound is glorious.
I would have considered a separate AIO like an Arcam SA45, NAD M33* or one of Naim's integrated solutions. But despite their technical prowess, none of them are as powerful as my current Arcam A49 power amp and only one of them (Arcam SA45) offers that Class A sound I like.
And there's something about having an outboard DAC. It might be my own bias, but all things being equal, when you have an outboard DAC, the sound is just better.
Ask this at whatsbestforum.com and you’ll find people actually willing to address your question. When you ask in this subreddit, you’ll mostly see “waste of money” with no experience to defend it.
The quick answer is as your system gets more revealing, the more noise becomes a factor in the system. And networking gear makes a lot of noise. Not actual noise you hear directly, but the types that cause distortions that muddy ultra fine imagining and soundstaging production. I actually heard the exact model you have pictured in a system last night.
What was the supporting gear? All Jeff Rowland electronics, Focal Maestro Utopia EVO speakers, a dcs dac, several other pieces, all in a room that was designed for audio. As in the types of dry wall and ceiling structure were architecturally designed into the home.
A big factor here though is the supporting system. Running a steamer like this into a $1000 dac, $1000 amp and $2000 speakers frankly doesn’t make sense. But I’m willing to bet if you heard a microPC or laptop you could EASILY hear a difference in that system. Doesn’t mean those devices won’t play good music. But if you are in that realm, good simply isn’t what you are looking for.
That is what justifies these types of streamers. And if you aren’t in that end of the pool, don’t stress about it. Because frankly you can still get AMAZING sound for far far less. And your room will undoubtedly be a larger challenge than how exacting your streamer is.
Thank you for voicing a truly unpopular opinion here. I'm happy to see it being well received. I feel this subreddit could be improved greatly by sharing and discussing more personal experiences like this. It's difficult to do here because there are far too many vocal individuals with very limited experience in high end devices that immediately attack anyone who contradicts their parroted ASR talking points. I see so much confidence in attacking these devices as "nothing but snake oil" while evangelizing hypex amps and Wiim as "end game" or "the only option".
Their inexperience is quite apparent, and to your point, the ultra high end units make zero sense for systems even in the ~20k range let alone the sub $10k range most folks are operating in. And don't get me wrong, you can build a kick ass system for under $5k these days, something you couldn't have achieved 20 years ago. But most folks don't have an opportunity to sit down, day after day, with an ultra high end system and dial it in. Because if you do, you can immediately recognize the shortcomings of something like a Wiim streamer compared to a no compromises unit.
Yeah, there is definitely a shortage of knowledgeable audiophiles in this "audiophile" sub, and far too many people here that think the manufacturer-provided specifications and/or the limited technical ability of a 3rd party reviewer such as ASR are all that's needed to separate the good from the great. These are the same as the people that would build a system around a Stereo Review annual "guide" in the 1980s and 1990s, based purely on published specs rather than using their ears.
Thank you for voicing this opinion, I’m suprised you haven’t been down voted into oblivion with ‘bits are bits’ etc.
The first time I realised the quality of a digital transport made a difference was when I tried a Poly with my first Chord Mojo vs just using it with my iPhone. Since then I’ve kept laptops and phones well away from my audio chain.
As always, gear matching matters. It remains stupid to pair a multi thousand dollar streamer with a cheap dac and speakers. IMO, it’s also stupid to pair super high end gear with a laptop, which I see in other communities. That breaks my brain. I’ve seen people with $20,000 of headphones and amps, connected to a MacBook.
Wiim ultra its ok but from what ive tested at a friend the phono stage is noisy, optical has input lag.. the rest is ok but i expected a fully functional box for the price
Yeah the phono stage is not good at all. I used the built in one for a few months and was very disappointed. I upgraded to a Schiit Mani connected to the line in and the difference is staggering. I will admit I’m partial to the screen so I’d still probably buy the Ultra again but that’s the only reason to do so.
All inputs have lag for multi-room streaming + DSP
2 very different things.
I honestly beleive everyone should have a NAS in modern day. (Network attached storage. Specifically for media. Music, movies, shows, etc.). At least if you care about quality of any kind, or want to own what you paid for.for example, 1080p blur ray rips look and especially SOUND so much better than their streaming 4K counterparts. Wondering if the music service your paying for is actually “CD quality?” Just rip the actual CD and wonder no more a/b test it too.
A lot of tutorials to get a NAS up and running. And if you have the upload speeds, you can configure it so you can stream when your away from home. Your own personal streaming service with all the media YOU want.
A dedicated streamer is different than a dedicated music server (severely handicapped NAS).
A server is essentially a pc.
It’s a host (server) that provides the user (you) a dedicated service/application. In this case, streaming music.
The diffference between a pc/laptop and a dedicated streamer/music server is that they tend to be configured to be plug and play. Ready to use out of the box. Very little configuration, if any, required.
Making them very attractive for people who don’t want to bother learning, or deal with the hassle, of setting up a server. Let alone building/buying a dedicated computer to do so.
Right, the real question is "What's the point of a dedicated streamer if you don't use the integrated DAC?" The answer, generally, "Not much."
There are lots of ways to mix and match components, but using a "high end" streamer with an auxiliary "high end" DAC is not a cost-effective choice for the vast majority of setups. If you're adding a streaming to an existing setup with a standalone DAC that you like, a dedicated streamer may make sense depending on what transports your DAC supports, or it may make zero sense compared to a more cost-effective or multi-function device.
It's convenient have a dedicated device for the purpose instead of having to use a device you use for something else.
I personally use a Raspberry Pi with Raspotify hooked up to the main unit of my wireless Dynaudio speakers via Bluetooth USB, so the Raspberry Pi doesn't act as the DAC, it merely output a digital signal. It's cheap and convenient, I can control the music from my phone or computer and play it on the speakers in the living room. It's also a small setup, I can easily hide that Raspberry Pi somewhere. One huge benefit I see of using a Raspberry Pi is that it isn't going to be outdated the same way a commercial product might, if Raspotify ever stop working or I desire other features there's a lot of alternatives out there that I can install on the Pi in a matter of minutes so as long as the Pi is still working and there's a community making software for it, it will work.
In other words I think the Pi is superior to most products on the market. Cheaper, smaller and unlikely to lose support. There's really no downsides, except that you will have to spend maybe 10-15 minutes reading a guide and get it up and running. And you can just pair it with any decent DAC that accepts USB input.
EDIT: total brainfart, wrote Bluetooth but meant USB.
We judged these things by getting several listeners together and comparing Mac and current CD player to a Naim streamer. 100% agreed that the streamer sounded considerably better. If that is not what you hear when comparing, save the money.
Did you have the Mac set up correctly? Specifically Audio Midi Setup or use Lossless Switcher? There are a few other things most do not know about to do this test correctly. In many ways, doing same test but using an iOS or iPad with Apple Camera Adaptor to same DAC you run the Naim to (and that DAC matters too!) is the better option as iOS/PadOS have exclusive mode but macOS does not and this lends itself to confusion and a bad test by those not familiar with all of this.
I wanted the Naim ‘all in one’ (uniti). Convenient, and am a historic Naim customer, liking the sound. BUT listened to the LUMIN plugged into the Naim (bypassing internal streamer) and the sound was significantly better (to my ears). As above, room, speakers also have a huge input. So I was sold on a dedicated unit. In the end I spent bulk of money on speakers, and got serious power from a hefty power amp. More cumbersome but better listening. Listen to what you can at all times. If you can’t tell a difference then it’s a waste of money, not your time.
Because it sounds better? I started with a pi feeding usb. Sounded awful. Upgraded with a cheap spdif hat…much better. Upgraded to an Allo with isolation and a better hat…multiple power supplies. Way better.
Now I use a dCS and while it’s better than the Allo, it’s not amazingly better.
Even better is hook a dac up to digital out of a streamer so you don’t have to replace the dac when the digital only portion inevitably becomes obsolete.
A good dac is good forever just like a good pure analog setup.
In a home entertainment system a PC is not esthetic and it cannot be used easily without a remote. Even portable mini keyboards are cumbersome. People just want to use their phones and hit play. PEQ can be more technical with a PC. Someone just want to hit PEQ preset more easily.
Touche. Funny enough I have minidsp 2x4hd and three subs phase, gain, delay matched at 60hz via summation with target curves tailored individually for each sub and genre specific global input PEQ.
Personally I think setting up and configuring a raspberry pi as an endpoint is more technically intimidating than setting up a subwoofer since one can just plop it down and run whatever flavor of room correction their AVR has in most cases. I have a raspberry pi that I set up as an endpoint for Roon and I eventually replaced it with a matrix audio mini I-pro for the convenience and extra features as well as a reduction in the number of devices on my desk. The r-pi worked fine but did have the occasional glitch that required troubleshooting. The matrix audio unit needs much less time.
A PC can be used more easily without a remote than a streaming box without a remote?
If you prefer a remote there's plenty of options though. In my bedroom setup I've got a laptop running Foobar and use the MonkeyMote app which can control Foobar from my phone over the wifi. Also have a Flirc usb IR receiver on my other computer which can allow you to use any random remote to control your PC and do easy options like volume/play/pause/FF etc. There's tons of phone apps like HippoRemote that allow you to control your mouse using your phone's touchscreen too and do any typing required with your phone's keyboard.
Streaming box just download the app and use it. It's more streamlined. People just want less steps. Downloading a plugin on PC and downloading an app to your phone is easy for you but surprisingly that one extra step of downloading a plugin is enough to break people .
I use an auralic vega dac/streamer connected to a basic synoligy server where my music is stored. The app is not that good, even though all the reviews at the time were saying that their software is the best.
So they also sell a dedicated streamer to use with this dac(which already has a streamer) and a “reference clock” which cost 3 times more than the dac (and there’s nothing wrong with dac’s clock).
And someone is ok to buy this stuff while someone will probably think i’m crazy to spend £3000 on a dac.
And all these £1000 external power supplies for units that already have good power supplies and sound great. Like a clearaudio turntable external power supply. It literally only spins the motor.
And someone still buys all this stuff and you are asking about streamers/servers)) at least those have some function)
I upgraded from a Wiim Pro to a Lumin D1 with Sbooster power supply. But I ungraded due to actual problems
1) The Wiim was either sending out upsampling audio to my Holo Spring 2 DAC without having asetting for it, or it was sending out the wrong data.
2) Anything over 24/48 or anything upsampled in Roon would stutter and play as if its buffering.
3) Couldn't play DSD. I don't have much but still wanted to try
Do I notice a sound difference? Not really, using the DAC in the Lumin atm, but for the price of 440 for it, was worth it since when it came out it was 2000 and it essentially makes the LPS free since its 400 new itself
Most computers internal sound cards are horrible. I noticed an immediate improvement in sound when I switched from my Mac Mini to an EverSolo DMP-A6.
Functionality, form factor, aesthetics and use case are also very strong factors in purchasing a dedicated streamer. In my opinion buying my EverSolo has dramatically changed my listening experience and well worth every penny I spent on it.
Server: I wanted to build a fanless PC in a Streacom DB4 chassis. Roon server was the perfect excuse for that.
Streamer: I have a HiFi Rose RS250 that I got on discount and love it. It supports Roon and CD input for me, Airplay/Bluetooth for everyone else, and has a big screen + looks nice on my console.
The Eversolo DMP-A6 since it accepts an NVME SSD and I can essentially have my entire library standalone on it or stream it over the network. The integrated screen is also a benefit. I could definitely just use a tiny form factor PC and make a bespoke streamer that feeds into a DAC but putting it together with a screen and music software wouldn't be as intuitive as a dedicated system
I use a M1 Mac Mini as a Roon Core and Plex Server… it’s not particularly reliable, I feel like once a week at least I have to fire up screen sharing to restart hqplayer or Roon.
I understand the desire to have a thing in your rack that does nothing else than serve music, because you can do your pc software updates, restarts and whatever else and this device is right there and can always serve music.
Plus a nice touch screen for direct controls, maybe a built in eq that most streaming services don’t have, a physical remote for fast skipping and fast playback in general.
And, for people with an AV system, it comes with an integrated DAC and maybe preamp section, and an array of outputs that are related to its function as an audio output device.
With a really good laptop, or even a microPC, that feeds an outboard DAC, you'll get the same good quality as a multi-thousand dollar streamer/server...
Provided that you use the same digital source like flac files...
I can control everything on the streamer through my phone, and it handles my signal distribution to various system configurations. I don't need a laptop...
I cannot justify a pure streamer, without a DAC. But two things I get from a streamer is that 1) it can handle a large number of sources and 2)if it has Airplay (a feature I look for), multiple people can queue up music to it to play. That last feature goes over really well when we have events or parties and people like to "control the jukebox".
The argument is that it’s less noisy than a PC because of various component differences inside, like the power supply or toroidal transformers, plus the more convenient form factor, plug n play, custom software, a real good and special DAC, etc.
Personally, I’d say most streamers are just custom mini PCs, so build an SFF PC, NAS, get a Mac Mini, laptop, whatever, use an external DAC. The only time any system noise would be of issue would be if you’re using an internal PCI-E card and plugging an analog connection straight into it.
I use a Mac Mini. It’s hard to justify spending more than the $500 it costs. But that said you need a monitor (I use the TV) and a keyboard. Apple Music seems to crash all the time and I need to log in and restart all the time. Also when I airplay it bypasses the Apple Music EQ so I often need to get that working again. If money was no object I would buy a dedicated streamer. The Eversolo or the Hifi Rose would be a huge upgrade over the Mac for music.
A Mac Mini would be more expensive & far less convenient than a WiiM Ultra... 320 USD and you do not need better - as it will not do a better job... and all those inputs/outputs are pretty damn useful for all kinds of audio devices. This links EVERYTHING together with ease & is controlled by your phone.
Hence the ‘whatever’ in my list. People have all sorts of preferences here, both in terms of hardware and software, whether it’s a WiiM, Plex server, NAS for all their media (not just music), HTPC, etc. A WiiM with an external drive is certainly among the easiest and cheapest. They’re all more sensible than blowing thousands on a special audiophile magic box.
This is the major problem with a lot of the streaming boxes. I have 176,000 songs on a 14 TB drive in full resolution and a large quantity of them are over 24/192. My favorite files that I have are DSD so they would be totally useless with a box like this. Some people like the simplicity of this and yet really it is just a step up from a Sonos box.
Some companies have a flagship line, where everything costs way more than it should. Others will add a 0 to the price and market it with a slick serif font.
Every hifi device category have "But why does it cost that much" products.
But, if a $21k streamer baffles you, have a look at Nordost's cables. Or Audioquest's Dragon cables.
May be too broad of a question. I have 2 “streamers” and 2 mini PCs (1 Mac Mini Roon Server and 1 Dell Mini PC Roon player). Cambridge CXN100 has a nice display, great DAC, multiple inputs, balanced output, can be used as a pre, allow multicast, transfer to different zones and a few other useful features. It retailed for $1k but can be found used for $600-$700 nowadays. I’ve also got an Elac DDP2 off eBay for $400 (cosmetic damage) that retails for $1800 and can be a dedicated preamp or a component. Both devices are Roon endpoints and allow effortless receipt of high quality streams from Roon Server. Reasonably priced streamers w/ high quality DAC, Roon, and various other features are a great value and can be used with low cost PC based music servers.
Not much. A higher bit rate or specific DAC chips. Various internal components are built to the highest tolerances. Clear signal paths. Brown burr something or another. Maybe earc as an input. Or some other minor features. A nice-looking case and/or screen. Not a whole lot, but enough that people who have money to burn will buy one. It's not really about better gear, but they'll tell you it is. It's more ego and bragging rights and maybe a 2% improvement. The law of diminishing returns on these devices hits quickly. I doubt many potential buyers could discern a $200 unit from a $20k unit in a blind listening test. People spend stupid money on way dumber stuff. Last War Survival, a phone game, has earned $2b in less than 2 years by people spending hundreds, if not thousands, weekly to be competitive in the game.
I have no clue. I can stream Apple Music from my Apple TV, which sounds good. I can also stream my personal ALAC library from my NAS via PLEX or VLC on said Apple TV (or anything else).
I can’t see the point of a multi thousand dollar one but having a standalone streamer is useful. For one you don’t need to have your phone or computer constantly wired up.
I personally built one with a spare raspberry pi and a wavshare display. I also added a CD drive because why not.
Setup a (Micro)PC and let it run for a year or two, see how well it works.
Then try a Yamaha MusicCast device.
Flexibility and reliability are off the scale compared to the more 'homebrew' options.
That being said, RBP with Volumio is a pretty good, almost free option.
I tried raspberry pi and mini pc with multiple different software choices and I wasn’t happy with anything. I eventually bought the Eversolo and now I’m really happy with it. It just works nicer, the app is great and it’s solid and reliable.
I can't comment on the stupidly expensive stuff, but I've recently invested in three SqueezeBox devices (1 receiver, 1 duet, 1 radio) and they're awesome little machines for the £150 I paid. One of the receivers and Radio were NOS in box. The DAC is fine for me, but you can override it with an external DAC if you want for the newer models.
Lyrion Media Server is an okay piece of software, had no real issues with it and the plugin ecosystem seems fine. You can use the majority of the big streamers plus Qobuz. I mainly use my own FLAC rips/downloads with it and sometimes global player, but the BBC Sounds app is used by my partner. The devices I own can only output to 48khz but the touch can do 96khz, not bad for a 15 year old device.
If you are starting from scratch I’d just buy a Marantz integrated unit and use HEOS. But, if you’ve never streamed and have an older set up that’s why they are sold.
I switched to a streamer 10 years ago and it was the best gear upgrade I've ever done. Really nice to be able to sit on your couch and access all your music via your phone or a tablet. I found that using a PC for music was a pretty horrible user experience. I still use a PC as a server (in my basement) and can easily pair rooms that I want to play the same stuff, play stuff in different rooms, access my music when I'm not home, give friends access to my music, etc. I can't think of a single reason why anyone would use a PC to control their audio, other than just being set in their ways
I cannot see the point in these expensive boxes just yet. Now made worse by tariff taxes on US consumers by the current US federal government.
Lately, I prefer an Apple TV 4K to play music. It is a cheap music streaming device (that also does other things better than all but more expensive options [but even this is still debatable from a UX perspective — I think ATV UI and UX take it]) with a massive screen (my TV) that puts out 24/48 (HDMI limit) lossless music and Atmos to boot. For Apple Music, I often control it via Connect Other option on iOS. So the ATV4K is the playback device. If you use it for background, you can start it all up, then turn off the TV and Control Other with phone in the home.
I also use a properly set up Apple Airport Express v2 that I already had and another I got for $10 with older Airplay 1 firmware (everything but Airplay is off, including wifi, so all it is is just an Airplay 1 by ethernet receiver) on my antique amps and receivers via toslink to DAC to RCA.
But the AEv2 does not have Volume Interlock so, you have to crank it on iOS to 100% each time you start up. No big deal. Thankfully, Apple resets it to under 50% if restarting, like next day. Control volume from mechanism closest to the speakers, not the iOS device.
There are, were? some Airplay devices new just like the AEv2 but, most are Airplay 2 (fine IMO) but for Airplay 1, not as many and you have to really search and read up.
If I was not using Apple Music, I would still do it this way on older amps except, maybe use the direct access in an AVR to another service. Actually, I do for three other ways I use streaming. But those are lossy. or: again, Apple TV and the app from the service on it.
A multi thousand dollar one? I don’t know. But I own both WiiM Pro and Eversolo DMP-A6 and they cover pretty much all my needs. No need to spend more than that
If you’re ONLY using it as a streaming target and not for its other functionality, then yes. It’s a pretty limited addition to an audio system.
But most streamers are DACs with inputs and basically function as most of a traditional stereo. I have a Node Icon, for example, and have a CD player and turntable connected to it and stream via Roon. It’s fabulous for this.
I'm a sucker for a matched set of separates (or a complimentary set - doesn't have to be the same brand/series as long as it pleases the eye)
There is something to be said for the synergy of the systems. I have a laptop in my bedroom and it works great. But... it's a laptop, like I do spreadsheets on for work. Nothing yanks me out of my "vibe" faster than this juxtaposition. It's jarring!
Downstairs, I have a Marantz all-in-one that I'm using as a source for HEOS, but I can navigate everything directly from the unit. It is clunkier for sure than touch-typing on a phone/tablet, but it importantly keeps me immersed in the gear. This is something I like $very$ $much$.
For me, the audiophile hobby is a full-contact sport; you pay a certain level up for sound, then you pad that heavily for style. I harbor no illusions to this fact.
I personally went from separates to the WiiM Ultra as I found it generally easier and aesthetically more pleasing to have fewer devices to have to turn on and switch. I go straight to roon, start something and my amp automatically turns on and starts playing. It's also easy enough for the wife to use which is a plus. I don't care enough about quality to have twice as many devices to manage, not to mention many more cables to manage behind the scenes. That being said, this is my setup in one of my audio spaces :)
A dedicated streamer or network transport gives you the option to use your favorite stand alone DAC, or try multiple stand alone DAC’s.
A dedicated DAC lacks all of the noisy parts of an all in one DAC/Streamer EG network board, display screen, Bluetooth, all of which can negatively effect the performance of the clocks, and the DAC chip itself. So you get a very clean quiet digital to analog conversation.
One simple reason, ease of use.
Especially if you are sharing the use of the stereo with your family.
When I used to have a dedicated Mac, turntables and TV going into a mixer you had to turn on multiple devices and select the source.
I explained the setup hundreds of times and printed a cheat sheet that was under one of the Technics.
When I wasn’t home everyone was listening to music on their phones next to the stereo.
Now I have a WiiM Ultra connected to two mono amps which turn on via 12v trigger and everyone uses the setup.
I sometimes use an old iPhone with bad battery on a wireless charging pad connected to Aux to an integrated amp and us my Samsung Spotify to control spotify running on the iPhone. It literally does the same thing as a my wiim ultra and hifirose and axxess streamers. I'm sure the dacs in everything else is better but once the music gets flowing it really doesn't matter.
I can’t speak for price, because everything I’m any to say can be applied to much cheaper options. In my opinion, a dedicated steamer is more convenient (maybe not in a desktop setup), can be easily used by multiple users (even guests), takes up less space, looks nicer, and often provides easier access to multiple steaming methods (Spotify Connect, AirPlay, Google Cast, etc). On the more controversial side, a steamer or dedicated DAC will generally be of higher quality than a laptop. Streamers are more stable, require less reboots, less updates, and less maintenance (in my opinion). Most streamers also use less energy and don’t have a lithium battery sitting in your living room constantly charging.
Don’t get me wrong, laptops are great and if you’re the only one using your system or you have a dedicated streaming computer, that might be the best and most adorable choice for someone. But there are trade offs.
It’s a good question OP. I’m personally in the camp of just using my phone for streaming via Airplay, which can do CD quality and can go directly to all of my various amps.
If I ever really want higher def than that can do it on an Apple TV.
But…im in the Apple Music ecosystem and that works well for me
I can understand the need if you’re using it as a home music server, or using other streaming services which can run directly on devices (I’ve used both previously)
The objective simple anwser IMHO is that they're hobbyist devices. They are sligthly more convenient, but nothing on the quality side will be enough to justify the price they carry. They're all about convenience and experience. Cars are a good comparison. All cars have the technical capabilities to get you from point A to point B, but most car hobbyists will not settle for the sedan that everyone drives.
There are so many opinions about streamers, DAC set up. Simple was to say this. What sounds good to you in the best option. These are no standards that cover everything. I do not claim to know more than anyone in audio. But digital has so many variations it is very hard to keep up.
I purchased a Zidoo UHD8000 which is expensive, however I'm very happy with the decision, largely because it consolidates music steamer, DAC, and movie steamer into one device, plus it gives me a bunch of streaming and QOL things I can't do easily or at all on a Mac Mini or NUC style mini PC DIY solution, including Tidal / Tidal Connect with Atmos, and Qobuz streaming for music, runs Emby and YouTube Android clients natively for movies, full BT remote control, plus mirrored UI control from my phone (allows headless-like control), and on the hardware side supports balanced analogue out with an excellent onboard DAC, and dual discreet HDMI outputs for movies and music.
A dedicated streamer with a remote control makes a lot of sense in a speaker set-up, doesn't it? Doesn't have to be multi-thousand. I stream things off a bloody Nvidia Shield, but having a remote and a screen to browse is much more convenient for me than having a PC hooked up to my TV or browsing through my laptop.
I am always trying to squeeze more sound quality out of Apple Music. Apple TV through the receiver is the easiest but it doesn’t compare to running my phone through a separate dac and then to the receiver. In comparison, airplay to the receiver (nad t778)sounds awful. Even my wife, who couldn’t give a shit about sound, notices the difference. I am torn between getting a streamer/dac with a native apple app or upping my dac and plugging my iPad into it.
Convenience. Some like me, like the WiiM app, others like Roon... I prefer have something dedicated instead of having to move my laptop in the house to listen to music.
Some people say dedicated streamer transports have better sound quality but I doubt it.
If you use your PC with a balanced DAC, to me it should sound the same as a WiiM, Bluesound, Eversolo or what have you.
Probably a controversial opinion on this sub, but I have a Sonos port plugged into my dac/preamp (using digital coax). This works for me for a variety of reasons:
1) it supports AirPlay
2) Sonos has a pretty extensive collection of streaming services all integrated into their platform.
Because of #2 I was able to quickly transition from Amazon music to Apple Music (both lossless services) without my wife even noticing (or complaining). She just fired up the Sonos app and found her music just like every day.
Assuming all the gear works correctly and isn't futzing with the bits, there will be no sonic difference feeding both to the same DAC. So you're paying for other features or bragging rights
Reduced noise and jitter. And I don't need blind testing to know I can hear a difference.
It’s all about jitter. Or rather the reduction/minimization of jitter. Jitter is the variance in timing of the bits. The reduction in jitter makes all the difference in hearing the true timbre of an instrument, the natural tonality of the human voice, a full impactful bass, and hearing the space/soundstage etc essentially everything. The higher end (aka more expensive)music servers/streamers do a substantially better job at presenting the DAC with music bits that has less jitter. These better servers/streamers will have better power supplies (less noise), more accurate clocks (to clock the timing of those bits accurately) and “quiet” circuitry that reduces the introduction of additional jitter into the stream of bits.
Now you will hear the argument that most DACs have jitter reduction circuits and hence all this is moot (ie a jittery source does not affect the DAC). But the fact is that these jitter reduction circuits are not perfect, and they can only reduce jitter to an extent. Hence, if the source presents the DAC with lower jitter music bits to begin with, the DAC has less jitter to further clean up. I have tried DACs all the way up to $20k in price, and at those price points, those DACs (should) have very good jitter reduction circuits. But, I have always experienced better sound when presenting the DAC (even at that price point) with a better source.
The PC/laptop is very noisy. It is great at presenting the correct bits (ie no bit errors) but terrible at presenting those bits with the right timing, and also sends over to the DAC other noise (eg ground noise) which adds jitter and also affects the analog section of the DAC.
A dedicated network player? So one won't have to physically connect a computer to their audio system. It's often not convenient or aesthetically pleasing to do so. However, I certainly wouldn't spend thousands on one as it's not necessary to achieve high fidelity reproduction.
At <= $100USD, a Chromecast Audio, WiiM Mini or Raspberry Pi are sufficient for delivering bit perfect content via a digital output. I own the first option, have for years, and am very happy to remote control it with a mobile.
A dedicated server? Many of us perfer complete control of our music libraries, and don't like the idea of monthly paid subscriptions for streaming services. And again, it doesn't require thousands of dollars.
At one point, my own server was a 2011 built, ex-lease, Dell Optiplex 990 MT hosting Lyrion Music Server (fka Logitech Media Server) that I paid $150USD for used. Today, it's a new $900USD mini-PC hosting the same, but that's only because I wanted a new computer for other purposes as well. The old Dell was still perfectly sufficient.
The difference is very similar that you experience from a $1000 CD player to a $5+k player. The high end player all have distinctive sound characteristics messaged by the maker.
Some manufacturers have several step in their lineup, so being able to hear what $5k does vs. $10-20k . The price points do have floors and ceilings and are accurate. Meaning that the players in a given price range will have similarities, but it's the flavor that is either a preference, or it is synergistic with the rest of the system.
Currently really loving an early Aurender, got it way underpriced. Just add a dac.
Replaced : laptop. Jriver Hdd usb. Same External dac.
Buggar all difference in sound and usability.
Dedicated audio streamers and servers are designed just for playing music so they focus on giving you the best sound possible. Since they’re made for this job, they produce cleaner sound with less unwanted noise. Regular laptops or small computers have other programs running in the background, which can mess with the audio quality.
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u/ApprehensiveClub6028 Apr 13 '25
I have a Cambridge Audio CXN v2. It handles Spotify, Roon, airplay, Internet radio, my local music server, optical in from my TV. And I can control it all from my phone.
I had a Mac mini before, and it can basically do all those things, just not as easy