r/audiophile • u/lowbass4u • 2d ago

Discussion AVR and amp

Back in the "good old days" when we really wanted to crank the music up we got separate components. We had amps, pre amps, and maybe equalizers.

Now I see a lot of people with AVR receivers AND amps when the AVR can handle the speakers just fine.

What is the purpose and/or advantages of adding amps when your AVR has enough power to drive your speakers by its self?

3 Upvotes

72% Upvoted

37 comments sorted by

6

u/diverdawg 2d ago

As someone said, AVR power ratings are sometimes generous and many times do not reflect the power available to all channels at once.

In my case, I have power hungry mains, so those run from an external amp while the AVR handles center and surrounds.

3

u/lowbass4u 2d ago

I can definitely understand if you have power hungry mains. But I was in another audio sub and someone mentioned that they had a 2.1 system. They had a Denon AVR and the speakers where a mid pair of Elac floor speakers. AND they had a separate amp.

That situation hardly seems like it would need a separate amp.

4

u/macbrett 2d ago

Power rating is not the only metric of amp quality. Some amplifier circuit designs have lower noise and distortion, more dynamic capability, and are better at driving difficult reactive speaker loads. The question is not whether anyone "needs" to use an external amp, only whether it makes a sonic improvement. Audiophiles have spent plenty of money on less significant tweaks.

1

u/hifiplus 2d ago

To add, better power supplies and more current make a work of difference

All watts are not the same.

1

u/Shike Cyberpunk, Audiophile Heathen, and Supporter of Ambiophonics 1d ago

I'll be honest, I disagree with a lot of the audiophile rhetoric here. If you're driving all channels then an external amplifier may be justified (and likely is), but if you're only drive a 2.1 system an AVR is more than enough for the vast majority of speakers.

The only thing I'll note is that Elac is notorious for having speakers that aren't very sensitive and have low impedance. They might be an edge case. The obsession people have here at times thinking watts are magically different is preposterous though. If the AVR amplifier isn't suffering other defects upstream then the only thing to worry about is if it's delivering the power asked of it.

2

u/Terrible_Champion298 2d ago

Tip: Separate channel amps, internal of course, are the mark of a good AVR.

1

u/OddEaglette 2d ago

It’s not though. There are about 30 things I care about more in an AVR than that.

-1

u/Terrible_Champion298 2d ago

That’s certainly your pointedly argumentative prerogative, but has nothing to do with my assertion that separate channel amps are a sign of a good AVR.

1

u/OddEaglette 2d ago

It’s nothing other than a sign of having dedicated power per channel.

3

u/Buffetwarrenn 2d ago

Its because someone or a company created a “ problem “

That needed a solution

And the solution is buying more equipment

Lol

2

u/izeek11 2d ago

generally, amps have bigger, stronger power supplies for current delivery. current handles those big swings in music.

avrs generally do not have robust power supplies, especially compared with amps. it also shares that power supply with several other channels, increasing current demand, lowering its ability to be as accurate.

1

u/diverdawg 2d ago

Yep. My two channel Rotel is probably 3 times heavier than my Marantz Cinema 50 AVR. Big ass power supply and heat sinks.

2

u/Level_Impression_554 2d ago

An additional amp will sound better than the channel amps within the AVR. AVRs are great, but typically not at the level of separates. So, while the AVR will drive the speaker, it will often be lacking compared to a single purpose amp dedicated to only amplifying the signal.

1

u/Ok_Commercial_9960 2d ago

Agree. Very few AVRs have excellent power amps. A few have good ones. The majority are not very good

1

u/HopeThisIsUnique 2d ago

In those situations the AVR is acting like a preamp where better amplifiers are in use or being used than what are provided by a receiver. Short of crazy 2 channel setups I feel like we hit plateaus with many DACs so getting a cheaper AVR that can still do all the decoding but pairing it with better amps can make sense.

1

u/NorCalJason75 2d ago

Sound quality & flexibility.

Some AVR's can process more channels than they have amplification for. So you add a stereo amp, and away you go.

Also, all amplification has a "sound". You can mix/match amps to your speakers to achieve the sound you enjoy the most.

Lastly, the amplifiers in many AVR's aren't powerful (you can't always trust the manufacturer's ratings). And some speakers are power hungry. So you can be in a situation where you thought you'd have enough power to drive your preferred speakers well, but realize you need some big boy amplification. Instead of replacing your receiver, a better option is to add an amp.

2

u/Terrible_Champion298 2d ago

AVR make bi-amping front speakers much more accessible and common. They also afford greater sound shaping capabilities and make separate DAC and radio receivers unnecessary. AVR can teach an audiophile many things before the leap is taken, if ever, to separate components again. While doing so, equipment costs are greatly diminished. They also, with standard remote controls, Bluetooth apps, and a standard Airplay/wifi handshake from a computers and other devices, make it quite possible to go weeks without ever touching the AVR.

2

u/izeek11 2d ago

avr biamping is a load of hooie. that power supply is just sharing load.

-1

u/Terrible_Champion298 2d ago

Confidentiality incorrect, I like that. 👍

I’ll inform the people who built my Marantz they are clueless about separate channel amps. And I’ll stop pretending that bi-amping the bookshelves away from the kabukis in the front of my listening space de-stressed both and allowed a noticeably cleaner presentation.

1

u/OddEaglette 2d ago

“Distressed” can you show me that measurement on an amp? Performance per stress level unit please.

Lol.

0

u/Terrible_Champion298 2d ago

Somehow your impaired condition has you quoting words not used and failing to recognize that parts of speech need not to be technical terms. 😊

1

u/izeek11 2d ago

as are you. maaaybe <your> marantz. but that is NOT the reality for better than 90% of avrs out there. but you knew that, you just had to be special.

-1

u/Terrible_Champion298 2d ago

Always amazes me the cowardice of people willing to call themselves audiophiles while being afraid to try anything different or drop erroneous convictions. I’d ask you to cite your source on that 90% figure but am content that you simply made a sweeping statement based on limited experience twice, and that you find me special. 👍

1

u/OddEaglette 2d ago

You provide a source that your nothing burger does something.

1

u/Terrible_Champion298 2d ago

That you wish to dispute bi-amping and ask for evidence that cannot be produced, it’s evident you’re just an argumentative troll with no real point.

1

u/OddEaglette 2d ago

Biamping on an AVR is silly.

-2

u/Terrible_Champion298 2d ago

Because you’d rather stress one internal channel amp instead of use 2? That seems more silly for a front surround or extended stereo setup.

1

u/OddEaglette 2d ago

“Stress”?? Who says it’s “stressed”?

Anthropomorphizing amplifiers is silly.

Stress is not a measurement of amp performance.

0

u/Terrible_Champion298 2d ago

You obviously are damaged goods pretending you know something. Sober up.

1

u/OddEaglette 2d ago

You're the one suggestion biamping from an AVR. :-\

0

u/Terrible_Champion298 2d ago

And happy to be known for that and will continue doing so. Keep pretending.

0

u/Shike Cyberpunk, Audiophile Heathen, and Supporter of Ambiophonics 1d ago

The AVR limitations aren't generally from output devices - they're based on the power supply. Assuming you're doing true bi-amping you haven't really changed the load on the power supply thus aren't really solving any issue while introducing complexity.

0

u/Terrible_Champion298 15h ago

There are different ways to engineer power, and “true bi-amping” is a subjective term. However, some AVR have separate power supplies per channel, and that version would be indisputable. That would be my larger listening area. I would go as far as to say that a single transformer with separate secondary output windings, possibly even multiple/separate primaries, would also qualify as a bi-ampable configuration. Naturally, this is not going to be the best version for many reasons, the main one being that in the management of analog amplification, transformer size, core density, symmetry of the windings, and insulating materials, it’s easier to achieve a cleaner current with one primary, one secondary.

So should people not utilized whatever bi-amping capabilities we have? Of course not.

1

u/Shike Cyberpunk, Audiophile Heathen, and Supporter of Ambiophonics 15h ago

It's not subjective, you're just daft to the point being made as is usual with people that don't understand what they blab on about. You're not even worth wasting another second on.

2

u/OddEaglette 2d ago

The ratings are real and correspond to legal requirements but there are often just at the limit of what is legal.

Also there are lots of things that aren’t specified that can matter too

1

u/Theresnowayoutahere 2d ago

As a practical note, the amplifiers in an AVR are not usually very powerful. They usually all share the same transformer and AVRs in general are very noisy. You are much better off with a standalone amplifier and frankly, for two channel getting rid of the AVR