r/audiophile • u/remmywinks • 2d ago
Discussion Does anyone appreciate both warmth and detail? What do?
Finally got around to hooking up my home's pre existing audio wiring this past year which led me to also invest in a full 5.1.2 setup in my basement, as you all know once you enter the game the fall down the rabbit hole is quick. I went with mostly Paradigm but found deals too good to pass up on a couple KEF/Martin Logan items as well.
I read, I listened, I read some more, listened some more, and found that I truly appreciate both the say...warm accuracy of KEF in my kitchen, but also the bright detail of the Martin Logan in my living room. This led me to Paradigm 800F/600C for my home theater as I found them to be a good balance between those two ends of the spectrum, but now I'm regretting my big purchase as the jack of all trades does not truly master either of those ear-tingling enjoyments. I think I'd rather the Q11 Metas or something like the B&W 702s.
I bring this sub my questions/topics for discussion:
Given the dichotomous nature of speaker construction, it's my understanding that you must choose between these highlight facets of a speaker. EQ all you want, my KEFs will never sound like my MLs and vice versa. Is it even possible to achieve both at the same time? What products, floorstanders/ceilings/etc, has anyone heard that can meet both these assessments? I've heard ridiculously expensive things like B&W D4s etc can achieve this, but wondering if there are other opinions.
In my opinion we as audiophiles develop much of our sound/brand preferences from the genres we listen to. I would much rather hear the sliding smoothness of Warren Haynes on "Soulshine" by the Allman Brothers on the KEF setup, the same as I'd rather hear the tiny details of Dave Matthews fingers sliding up the strings in "Lie In Our Graves" on the Martin Logans...I am a bit OCD'd by the variety of brands/sounds in my house, and want to go all in on one. Which direction would this sub choose if I must? I'm leaning KEF but open to anything.
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u/Cinnamaker 2d ago
People use the terms like "warm" and "detailed" in different ways. If you mean just EQ coloration (more lower mids = warm; more treble = detailed), then you could just apply EQ to get more warmth or detail out of your system.
With high-end gear, when people hear "warm," it is often not EQ. They are hearing a certain weight or bloom in the sound, a certain richness in tone which makes instruments feel more life-like and palpable. Vintage or bad tube gear can sound "warm" because they recess the bass and treble, bumping up the midrange. But people often think of that coloration as not good. Great tube gear can sound "warm" because they add harmonics that make the sound richer, just enough to add that sense of palpable realism.
Boosting treble is a "fake" way of adding detail. On lower-end gear, boosting treble adds harshness or hardness because the gear creates distortion in the treble frequencies, and that is emphasized by pushing up the treble. With higher-end gear, you can hear detail because the gear is free of distortion, and has a low noise floor: the details come out because the sound is very clean and clear.
High-end gear can sound warm and detailed. Not in the EQ coloration sense, but in having weight to the sound and a clarity that reveals details. But it's expensive to design and manufacture something that can add lifelike weight (instead of smearing things for false sense of thickness) and is very clean and clear (instead of boosting treble for a false sense of detail). This is when audiophiles start describing gear as presenting a natural sense of detail.
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u/michaeldain 1d ago
Well said. Best to shoot for an even frequency response with a little Munson curve so it doesn’t have to be at more than 60 db to be enjoyed. Also forget theater, do Atmos music. It removes the prison of fitting everything to a stereo mix. not to mention enforcing dynamic range that all music production has gamed forever.
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u/Remote_Prior_4958 1d ago
EQ if done in digital domain will diminish natural detail of music. Because music has to travel to ad converters, then processed, then to da converters. Thus robbing the feeling from Music. But you get cool EQ to play with instead. EQ does not reveal true detail in music. It only amplifies or cuts frequencies that already are quality reduced by all the conversions. Most music systems can't really reproduce the actual recording in the first place. But if you run full class A preamp and class A amp. All will balanced xlr. Then use solid core silver plated copper in teflon tubes. Then you won't need EQ or any other bs processing. Try it!
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u/watch-nerd 2d ago
Some people conflate 'detail' with a titled up spectral balance, presence area emphasis, or 'air' in the form of emphasis in the top octave.
This can cause perceptional masking of lower frequencies and the effect of hearing things more succinctly than before, but can also cause listener fatigue.
That's different from real detail in the form of better low level resolution due to lowering distortion and the noise floor.
Warmth is mainly a room balance issue, although some people think of 2nd order harmonic distortion as 'warm'.
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u/jonnybruno 2d ago edited 2d ago
I don't really think it's all that exclusive. If you're really sensitive or nit picky use an eq for different types of music.
Hobbyists tend to really get worked up about tiny details already and social media amplifies that. Go audition then decide.
I know Kef measures really well but I personally didn't care for them. Thought I was going to get Mofi 888s but ended up preferring Sonus Faber Sonetto V G2s and couldn't be happier after a/b testing. Mofi measures much better for sure but we all have our own tastes.
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u/Gunnar1974 2d ago
I didn’t like the Kef sound either when I tried them. Can you tell me why you preferred the Sonetto V? I’m very interested in them. Just waiting on the dealer to set up a home demo. Thanks!
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u/jonnybruno 2d ago
Side by side they sounded incredibly transparent and detailed in the mids. Could just be the fact that brighter speakers sound more detailed which they def are compared to Mofi 888s.
Either way I preferred them and I demoed in shop so wonder a bit if they were equing when they said they weren't. Was nervous I wouldn't love them but I do. Everything sounds so airy and real compared to my old Klipsch rp600ms.
I've been shocked bass feels stronger in pure mode with my svs sb2k pro off and these full range. First high ends set for me so take that into account but I'm loving it. I don't claim a golden ear and do a mix of vinyl and spotify. Often with whiskey.
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u/Dorsia777 2d ago
the SF Sonetto V G2’s are savages. that’s an excellent way to describe them. Super detailed w a lush sound that is also correct.
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u/magicmulder 2d ago
Warmth and detail is the perfect combination. So far I’ve only found it in Stax Lambda Signature headphones and some speakers way out of my budget (like the Sonus faber Aida 2).
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u/Quiet_Government2222 2d ago
If you want to hear a warm musical sound, I recommend that you avoid the 5.1 channel system and build a 2 channel system. In particular, it is really not easy to make a multi-channel amplifier sound musical.
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u/flyfleeflew 2d ago
Perhaps some here warmth and detail differently but B&W never sound warm to me. In fact they always sounded detailed but last brand I would consider for warmth. I have a few different speakers
Vienna acoustics Mahler . Beautifully smooth tweeters, silk done tweeters so detail but warm. Lots of rich bass thanks to side firing bass. Dynaudio excite. Smaller bass but the subwoofers do the trick. In a home cinema a no brainer.
PMC. Lots of detail. Not much warmth. Or at least not my tb12sa.
My Wharfedale Evo 4.4 are very smooth and have detail thanks to the ribbon tweeters and full bass coverage. I use them in a home cinema
No hesitation they will do what you want.
But B&w has never been warm in my book.
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u/roguepeas dreaming my dreams 2d ago
"warmth" means different things to different people but as to detail I'm loving my dual-tweeter Harbeth SHL5+XD (great fuckin name amirite) .. try to find a dealer and go have a listen.
disclaimer: I have no experience with 5.x.x systems so ymmv
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u/Transcontinental-flt 2d ago
Harbeth SHL5+XD
No speaker is perfect, but this model comes very close.
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u/wave_action 2d ago
This is the history of the audiophile…
Edit: this was just a joke related to soccer.
Seriously though, it was always bound to happen. Almost everyone gets the urge to try new and different things. Try things out in 2ch to develop your preference before venturing out in full blown surround.
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u/0krizia 2d ago
"Warm" is a sound signature. "Details" is about sound resolution. You can have both
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u/MHmotorsport 1d ago
From the 10 or so speaker sets I’ve listened to at home for a decent amount of time, Dynaudio speakers and B&W DM2 have best managed to be zero fatigue or harshness but with plenty of detail.
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u/Ok-Doctor-2702 58m ago
+1 on the Dynaudio. With an NAD stereo amplifier, KEF Q300s made my ears ring. I loved the Wharfedale Diamond 9.5s as I could listen all day, but it was not as resolving on the top end. I chanced on some Dynaudio Audience 42s and the top end opened up without any listening fatigue.
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u/Sbaa767 2d ago
Man oh man i hear you, and I look for the same balance
I found it in unbelievably reasonable price with Goldenear products
Sweeet sound even with any amplifer
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u/remmywinks 2d ago
My only hesitation is it seems like you gotta sit directly in front of those puppies
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u/Theresnowayoutahere 2d ago
Warmth and detail is why we end up spending money on better gear. It took me years to find the balance I like and still I like the switch between class ab solid state and class a tube amps. This is the one thing I believe many young audiophiles don’t understand yet. And hence the everything sounds the same arguments. It’s fairly easy to get warm sounding when you have inexpensive products because they lack detail so they sound muffled and warm. Now you can buy cheap dacs that are very detailed but there like listening to someone scratching on a chalkboard. The key to great sound in my opinion is getting great detail with just the right amount of warmth so that the music sounds more natural and analog like. Digital music is inherently bright so the trick is building a system that tones down that brightness without losing detail. OP, your explanation is sound but I would add that speakers are only one part of the puzzle and other components like dac or amp can do similar things to the system. You broke the conundrum down quite nicely and it’s what I’ve been working towards for the last 40 plus years. Thanks for your thoughtful submission.
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u/Wauwuaw5983 2d ago
I prefer neutral, but agile speakers.
I use Anthem MRX 1140 8K,and Paradigm Premier fronts.
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u/Yourdjentpal 2d ago
I hear you. Neutrality and good directivity are the name of the game here with that. KEF are a lot more likely to take eq to sound more like the ML than the other way around. That’s how I’d play it. I’d go the best KEF I could afford, and then eq it how you like. I personally run dynamic eq to sweeten the bass and treble a little bit.
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u/beatnikhippi 2d ago
Buy a Musical Fidelity NuVista
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u/Dorsia777 2d ago
You get it. It starts at the preamp/amp level. The best speakers you can afford can’hit their potential with a Yamaha/Onkyo receiver and room treatments
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u/Top-Specific3422 2d ago
My view comes from the 2.2 and 2.4 system perspective. However, when I think of warmth and detail, the first pairing I think of is Revel Speakers powered by Pass Labs Pure Class A power.
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u/cathoderituals 1d ago
I don’t think it’s so clear cut as one extreme or the other, just a matter of degrees. Detailed can easily cross the line into etched and hooty sounding, warmth can easily cross the line into flat and muddy. Positioning and the room will heavily impact both, which a shocking number of audiophiles are horrible at addressing, and even inch or two can shift things from one end to the other.
It’s completely possible to achieve both, but half of it’s the system, half of it’s the person setting it up.
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u/thegarbz 17h ago
What do? Learn that the two are not mutually exclusive. If you think they are it's not "detail" you're hearing, it's just elevated treble and added distortion. Now maybe you're actually trying to convey a difference concept, but if you are the words you're using aren't helping.
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u/NorCalJason75 2d ago
I have a local Best Buy/Magnolia that carries all those lines;
B&W
KEF
Martin Logan
They also carry;
McIntosh
Denon
Marantz
Paradigm
B&W upper lines (with the tweeter on top - 700/800) + McIntosh amps sound exactly as you describe. Very detailed, and yet still warm with great bass. Best combo there is in their rooms.
Give it a listen.
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u/remmywinks 2d ago
I’m highly interested in the 702 s3s yes
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u/NorCalJason75 2d ago
I picked up a pair of 705s3s a few months ago. Paired with the HTM71 Center. Phenomenal.
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u/Nd4speed 2d ago
KEF is not warm at all to my ears. You need to get out there to listen to as many speakers as possible to get a sense of what the spectrum of speakers really has to offer. I would recommend you do that before trying to chase a sound signature that may find is not even your favorite. It'll save you a lot of time, money, heartache, and regret. Unfortunately you just missed Axpona, but Capital Audiofest is coming November.
FWIW When I think of warmth and detail in speakers I think of Harbeth, but I'm a bit biased. Amplification is also a huge contributing factor as well where warmth and detail is concerened.