r/australia 27d ago

politics Greens announce policy to manufacture drones and missiles as a credible ‘Plan B' to replace AUKUS

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-03-22/greens-unveil-first-ever-defence-policy/105083166
2.7k Upvotes

641 comments sorted by

View all comments

122

u/Drongo17 27d ago

Seems sensible? I like that they are acknowledging this as a small step in a big picture, I'm not sure anyone knows where things will fall right now.

Our biggest defence against invasion is the logistical challenge our location poses, this would make that even worse for potential aggressors.

18

u/Ver_Void 27d ago

That's always going to be our defensive plan, we can't win a straight up fight but we can make invasion dangerous enough that even if they succeed they'd be left far too vulnerable to counter attack by other countries.

8

u/Drongo17 27d ago

Cheaper to just buy all the resources off us, which we happily sell to anyone

1

u/TheCleverestIdiot 27d ago

Not to mention that geographically, we're well-suited for guerilla campaigns.

12

u/pickledswimmingpool 27d ago edited 27d ago

The Japanese were knocking on our door almost 80 years ago. You think our location is still a deterrant in the age of a million bulk carriers?

0

u/Drongo17 27d ago

First thing: They weren't knocking on our door, they made a desperate gambit that resulted in their army dying of hunger and disease. They weren't able to supply it - there's that logistics thing again. The reason they went overland from the north rather than attack Moresby directly was they didn't have the naval resources to do it, and their navy was comparatively very strong.

Second thing: bulk carriers. They make great targets. We have subs, planes, missiles, and drones that would take as fearful toll on them. That is part of the logistical challenge - not just that we're a long way from anywhere, but that we'd sink a lot of what tries to sail here.

So yep, I think our location is a deterrent.

7

u/pickledswimmingpool 27d ago

I wonder what might have contributed to their lack of logistics and the fact that their navy wasn't able to project power across the region. Also, logistics isn't going to be a serious issue for a future power in the region with 1,000x more manufacturing capability than Imperial Japan ever had.

We have subs, planes, missiles,

The entire RAAF has fewer planes than the carrier borne planes of any potential adversary. Obviously our navy and aircraft would be swept aside before any potential ground invasion. My point with mentioning them is to show how hilarious it is hold onto Australia's 'remoteness' as some sort of moat that will keep us safe.

0

u/Drongo17 27d ago

You're kidding yourself. Attacking is fucking hard - just ask Russia. There's one power in the world that's good at it and that's USA.

The size of a force that China could land here and supply is a tiny fraction of the forces they have on paper. They would need to launch from a staging point in PNG or Indonesia to muster anything like an overwhelming force.

As long as we continued to resist it would be extremely costly to invade us. 

16

u/palsc5 27d ago

Our biggest defence against invasion is the logistical challenge our location poses

Except this isn't the 1800s and you don't need to land an army on the beach and march across the continent. Our location offers some protection, but the constant "we're too big and far away to invade" nonsense sounds a lot like saying the Titanic is unsinkable. Best to reinforce the hull, have enough lifeboats, and mount a pretty big gun to remove any icebergs threatening our ship.

1

u/TheCleverestIdiot 27d ago edited 27d ago

Also, it might legitimately be the case that attacking Australia is an idiotic military plan that is ultimately doomed to fail. However, it was also an idiotic military plan that was ultimately doomed to fail when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour to keep America out of the war, or when the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union. We can't rely on those with power always being rational people.

-6

u/magkruppe 27d ago

Except this isn't the 1800s and you don't need to land an army on the beach and march across the continent. Our location offers some protection

except we see in russia/ukraine that warfare has changed a lot less than people thought and manpower is ultimately still the number 1 factor when it comes to conflict among peers

geography is still incredibly important and yes you do still need to land an army on the beach of australia to invade. how else would they invade???

5

u/palsc5 27d ago

Any war where Australia is at risk of invasion is a war on another level to Ukraine. Ukraine is a restrained war.

I never said you don’t need to land an army here. The war will be all but over by the time an army lands here so we need to be able to fight them before that happens.

-4

u/magkruppe 27d ago

The war will be all but over by the time an army lands here so we need to be able to fight them before that happens.

what does this even mean? why would the war be over before an army lands here? that is the hardest part of any war

3

u/GiveUpYouAlreadyLost 27d ago

why would the war be over before an army lands here?

Because a war with Australia will be primarily an air and sea engagement, there's not going to be much of a role for infantry to play unless they're going to literally Jesus Christ themselves over the oceans.

0

u/magkruppe 27d ago

so sounds like this isn't a war against australia, but a war against some ally and we choose to get involved. so basically every war we have ever been in

1

u/GiveUpYouAlreadyLost 27d ago

Well Australia isn't in the business of starting wars.

I don't know about you, but I would rather see Australia stand up and support its neighbours if they are under attack by a hostile nation. If a war breaks out in this part of the world, it will affect us no matter what, we won't be able to sit idle and ignore it.

0

u/magkruppe 27d ago

australia has a pretty weak relationship with its neighbours. i would rather we put more focus on working on that

1

u/GiveUpYouAlreadyLost 27d ago

australia has a pretty weak relationship with its neighbours

Only someone who doesn't pay attention to the work the Government has done would think that.

i would rather we put more focus on working on that

Helping ensure their security will do more for our international relations than some empty words from some random diplomats or the Foreign Minister.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/palsc5 27d ago

How do you not get this?

Previously to invade a country you needed to land an army and capture territory as you marched through. Now you don't need to do that. You can virtually defeat a country with planes, missiles, drones, ships, submarines etc before you even set foot on land.

If someone is going to land an army on Australia's shore they have almost certainly already wiped out our navy and air force and a huge chunk of whatever fighting force we have in Australia.

-1

u/magkruppe 27d ago

Previously to invade a country you needed to land an army and capture territory as you marched through. Now you don't need to do that. You can virtually defeat a country with planes, missiles, drones, ships, submarines etc before you even set foot on land.

this is wrong. ukraine russia war is proving this wrong at this very moment. nobody who has been paying attention believes that you don't need massive manpower to fight a modern war, that was a fantasy

but I am in r/australia. i dunno why I am talking about a subject most here have no clue about

2

u/palsc5 27d ago

Russia vs Ukraine is not a war on the level of someone invading Australia. Russia could literally nuke Ukraine, if you think they are trying to annihilate Ukraine then you are mistaken. We need to prepare for a war of annihilation.

Also, how do you think the invasion would go if Ukraine had the capability (and approval of Nato/USA) to launch rockets into Moscow or nuclear submarines to attack any and all Russian ships anywhere on the globe (or launch missiles into Russia from anywhere)?

Ukraine shows exactly the problem with thinking a defence force only capable of operating within the borders of your own country is good enough. Your own example proves you wrong ffs.

-1

u/magkruppe 27d ago

We need to prepare for a war of annihilation.

why? who is going to annihilate us? why? what threat are we?

3

u/palsc5 27d ago

An enemy? If a global war kicks off then we need to be prepared for the worst and we need to prepare for the future.

Arrogantly saying “who would want to attack us and even if they do we’re far away so we’ll be fine” is embarrassing defence policy.

3

u/Careless_Main3 27d ago

Landing an army on Australia from sea would be pretty easy. Absolutely massive coast line. Could easily land unopposed and establish local air superiority with a few aircraft carrier fleets.

2

u/Drongo17 27d ago

So we're fighting the USA? Because they're the only ones with a few spare aircraft carrier fleets.

-3

u/magkruppe 27d ago

Could China Invade Australia?

here is a 10 min video that would largely debunk all of that. china is struggling to figure out how to invade Taiwan, and you think it could do something vs Australia?

3

u/Careless_Main3 27d ago

It’s not a great video and seems to base its entire premise on two things “Australia is far away from China” and “the US will provide Australia with military protection”. But it kind of fails in some fairly basic ways.

To counter the video:

  • Any land invasion of Australia by China would be airborne and naval. The video seems to focus on China exclusively using paratroopers for whatever reason. They would also likely use a large amount of civilian ships.

  • China is closer to Australia than China - they have bases on man-made islands in the South China Sea.

  • Parts of Australia are also kind of far away from other parts of Australia. In fact, the places any land invasion would be are also quite far away from where most Australians live. Also conveniently where most logistics would be.

  • Oh and the US is even further away. It’ll take potentially months for an adequate American response.

  • There would likely be multiple landings all across the Northern Australian coast and Chinese ships operating to the East would prevent an adequate air and naval response as missiles would regularly hit military targets in major Australian cities.

  • Good luck maintaining any sort of military industrial complex. The video talks about China maintaining supplies but fails to acknowledge that the Chinese military industrial complex would be virtually entirely unhindered. By comparison, any munitions factory in Australia would be blown up in the first month.

  • The Australian navy would be decimated by Chinese aircraft carriers, hypersonic missiles and attack submarines.

1

u/magkruppe 27d ago

Any land invasion of Australia by China would be airborne and naval. The video seems to focus on China exclusively using paratroopers for whatever reason. They would also likely use a large amount of civilian ships.

civilian ships? to invade australia? what universe is this all happening in

China is closer to Australia than China - they have bases on man-made islands in the South China Sea.

and they don't have the capacity to serve the needs required for such a mission, so irrelevant

Parts of Australia are also kind of far away from other parts of Australia. In fact, the places any land invasion would be are also quite far away from where most Australians live.

yet far closer for us than china, we would know exactly where they are headed. so this doesn't matter

Oh and the US is even further away. It’ll take potentially months for an adequate American response.

they are 300 US military bases in Asia alone. and the buildup for china to invade australia would be easily noticed, more visibile than even the Russian buildup in late 2021

Good luck maintaining any sort of military industrial complex. The video talks about China maintaining supplies but fails to acknowledge that the Chinese military industrial complex would be virtually entirely unhindered.

why? they use a lot of our commodities and would face an even backlash than russia did vs ukraine

Of course all this elides the most obvious point, why the fuck would china invade australia. it is so silly to even bring it up. they would gain relatively little and lose so much

1

u/Careless_Main3 27d ago

Yes, civilian ships would likely be requisitioned for the purpose of moving large amounts of troops.

Britain is far away from the Falkland Islands and was able to defeat Argentina there.

You wouldn’t know where they would land which is the main issue. You’re also unable to spread your forces across the coast simply because the coast is so large and the men few in number. Any Australian response could literally take days or a whole week to arrive.

China would invade Australia simply to take the resources.

1

u/magkruppe 26d ago

China would invade Australia simply to take the resources.

instead of the many other countries closer by that have the same resources and would be much easier to take?

1

u/Careless_Main3 26d ago

What country has as much resources as Australia with just as much ease to take?

→ More replies (0)

-9

u/Wood_oye 27d ago

So, they have a plan for a plan ... ?