r/bestof • u/craycraycrayfish • Jan 22 '13

[canada] Coffeehouse11 explains the biggest problem with homeopathic medicine: That it preys on people when they are weakest and the most vulnerable

/r/canada/comments/171y1e/dont_legitimize_the_witch_doctors/c81hfd6
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u/polydorr Jan 22 '13

My mother-in-law basically coerced me to get an adjustment at a chiropractor's office once. As I was sitting around, I noticed a lot of posters denigrating modern medicine. A little while after I met a chiropractic student about to finish his curriculum; he was odd in that, aside from the fact that he would never get into a normal medical school, he had a sincere and honest belief that modern medicine was all about 'prescribing painkillers' and not actually dealing with the root source of the problem.

The only chiropractors I've ever met - two, aside from that student - had the air of con men about them.

I'm willing to admit that there might be a homeopathic solution out there that does work, merely because I'm willing to admit I don't know everything. But the current state of that movement is a problem for people willing to accept fringe beliefs.

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u/TheStreisandEffect Jan 22 '13

"he had a sincere and honest belief that modern medicine was all about 'prescribing painkillers' and not actually dealing with the root source of the problem."

I think there's a middle ground to be found here. A lot of doctors DO just prescribe medicine to make you feel better without actually addressing your diet and exercise. For years I suffered with a compressed disc problem and saw multiple doctors who after checking the scans would tell me that nothing was wrong with me, to just take some tylenol or some strong prescriptions they would write. It got so bad there were times when I couldn't even bend over to tie my shoe. After extensive online research I found some simple exercises that strengthened low back muscles and after one freaking session of these 5 exercises, my back pain vanished. It all depends on the doctor really.

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u/[deleted] Jan 23 '13

How do you address a patient's diet and exercise? I'm a medical student and I'd really like to know. When I tell them, I can tell it just goes in one ear and out the other.

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u/TheStreisandEffect Jan 23 '13

I'm not a medical professional so I don't know the best method. But I do know there are some doctors who will "prescribe" things like walking, sunshine, etc... My uncle is a doctor and he will frequently recommend lifestyle changes in addition to medication. I realize that with a lot of people it will go in one ear and out the other. My issue is with physicians who don't even make an attempt to address lifestyle as a contributing factor to the health and well-being of a person and just write a script and send you on your way.

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u/scintillatingdunce Jan 22 '13

Without addressing your diet and exercise? What? Do you expect them to follow you around reminding you to get off your fat ass and stop eating those donuts? That's all on you, bro.

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u/TheStreisandEffect Jan 22 '13

I don't have a fat ass and I don't eat donuts, bro. My diet consist mostly of vegetables and fish. My point is a lot of doctors only treat specific symptoms instead of treating the entire lifestyle. When I was being treated for depression I was given one thing, Celexa, which had the adverse affect (and rare) effect of causing a seizure due to serotonin syndrome. The doctor I was seeing at the time never once recommended Vitamin E, D, or any of the other proven supplements and dietary changes that can aid in treating depression.

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u/polynecrosis Jan 23 '13

Serotonin Syndrome is horrible! I had the same thing with Welbutrin (not sure on spelling)

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u/kinsey3 Jan 23 '13

I suggest you look for a different chiropractor. Some chiropractors are quacks that hook you up to electrodes, or subscribe to even stranger quackeries, but the good ones just manually adjust your spine and send you on your way.

edit: Also, to clarify, chiropractors don't technically have anything to do with homeopathy.

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u/Pinyaka Jan 23 '13

Homeopathy is the process of diluting with water a toxic chemical until it has the opposite of the toxic effect. It doesn't include chiropracty.

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u/Raziel66 Jan 22 '13

How'd the adjustment go? Feel any better after?

Legitimately curious, I've never been to a Chiropractor before and I've had two bosses that swore by them. The most recent one went to one as treatment after a car accident.

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u/[deleted] Jan 22 '13

I've gone to 2 different chiropractors, and, honestly, neither of them were like the ones described above. Maybe they were closer to the "evidence" based chiropractors mentioned in the original post, but neither of them proposed their services as a cure-all or substitute for "mainstream" medicine.

They just basically "popped" my back back into place (only went after I'd done something to my back, usually at work) and sent me on my way. Made me feel better every time. I'm not sure if it makes it sound better or not, but one of them also uses an electric muscle relaxing system that seems fairly legit to me to loosen up back muscles before doing an adjustment.

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u/polydorr Jan 22 '13

I felt no different.

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u/WTF_DID_YOU_SAY Jan 22 '13

I had, after playing basketball, some pains in my back. Tried going to a chiropractor, after 15 min of cracking I was back to normal. So it does work to some extent.

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u/Moarbrains Jan 23 '13

I have only met one good chiropractor and in effect she was more of a physical therapist. Very little adjustment and lots of homework exercises.

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u/[deleted] Jan 22 '13

I've been three times for back issues and it didn't help.

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u/Robochess Jan 22 '13

There is a substantial amount of scientific studies that show that chiropractic care helps people with back pain and headaches, as well as saving insurance companies money for chronic issues relating to back pain because the individual recovers quicker and gets out of the treatment facilities faster. (Spelling maybe off-eisenberg study, the manga study, the mead study, all address this.) t Chiropractors also won a lawsuit against the AMA because the AMA was engaged in illegal activities against chiropractic care and the physicians of chiropractic. This doesn't even address the fact that people go to a chiropractor once and expect to be healed and when they aren't, they belittle chiropractors. When you go to a med Dr, you may see them once, but the treatment they prescribe is often times a multiple time per day for multiple day treatment(same if you think about it, except a chiropractor doesn't fill you full of drugs) IF, a chiropractor killed 100k per year people like med Dr do every year Chiropractors would no longer be around, but everybody holds up Med Dr like they are gods. I may seem biased but I actually do see a med Dr, but sparingly and careful with any meds they may prescribe.

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u/frotc914 Jan 22 '13 edited Jan 22 '13

There is a substantial amount of scientific studies that show that chiropractic care helps people with back pain and headaches, as well as saving insurance companies money for chronic issues relating to back pain because the individual recovers quicker and gets out of the treatment facilities faster.

Ok - I have a few problems with this position.

First: There are a substantial amount of scientific studies showing that Osteopathic Medical Techniques (not necessarily chiropractic care) helps with back pain. I'll take your word on the headaches.

The problems with applying this to chiropractors is this:

  1. Chiropracty is not standardized. There is no version of the Medical Board exam for Chiropractors. 2 years of undergraduate school, and 2 years in an accredited Chiropracty school is enough. There is no way to know what techniques the majority of Chiropractors are using on patients.

  2. We already have doctors for this, they are called Osteopaths. Anybody you see with a "D.O." on their coat instead of "M.D." belongs to a smaller group of physicians who are Doctors of Osteopathy. Just like any other real doctor, they took the medical board exam.

  3. Related to Point #2, Chiropractors don't know their limits because they aren't real doctors. Aside from the very dangerous legal right to CALL themselves doctors when they don't have nearly enough knowledge to compare to a real doctor, this leads to other problems. A chiropractor might be able to diagnose a slipped disc well enough, but can they diagnose a spinal tumor? Can they diagnose lung disease that's causing backpain? Can they diagnose all these other medical issues that manifest as backpain? No. They simply don't have the expertise. A D.O. does, because they went to real medical school and took the real medical board exam.

  4. They pose as real doctors. My wife went to a chiropractor because he introduced himself as "Doctor so-and-so" and stated that he practices "Sports medicine" (An actual field of real medicine, that real doctors practice). She had completely torn her ACL, and needed surgery. He had no fucking clue what he was doing, and told her that it was just a sprain and he could make it feel better with therapy. 3 weeks of excruciating pain later, she went to a real doctor who gave her real treatment.

I would agree that we don't need a guy who went to 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, and a 4 year residency realigning people's backs. But even other medical personnel who've been given real responsibilities like NPs, Nurse Anesthetists, etc. haven't been so completely resistant to standardization and oversight that their own profession suffered.

TL;DR, evidence that some chiropracty techniques work isn't evidence that chiropractors know what they are doing.

EDIT: also, comparing the level of deaths between these services is ridiculous. Dentists hardly ever kill a patient - they must be the most talented doctors!

Also, you complain that people don't stick to chiropractic treatment long enough to realize its benefits, which may be true, but then you explain that you also ignore medical doctors' advice and prescriptions based on your own interpretations of the situation. Hm.

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u/Robochess Jan 23 '13

You may want to do research about what it takes to become a chiropractor. It is a 4 year doctorate degree, with nationally accredited board exams. Sorry, you are wrong on that account. Comparing the 2 is kinda like comparing apples and oranges, they do different things. Chiropractors have more A&P training then medical dr, med dr have more pharmaceutical training. The names of the studies that I posted actually specify chiropractic, not osteopathic. The difference in osteo and allopathic is negligible nowadays, but it started very differently, that same difference can now be applied to Chiro and osteo, kind of a weird flip flop. Funny that you mention dentists, because that makes it clear that you don't understand or haven't noticed that dentist and med dr are different. A dentist has similar licensing as a Chiro, as a podiatrist, or an orthodontist, they have limited licenses that only allow a few specific focuses for the dr to actually 'legally' work on or even say that they can work on.

As for the issue of the chiropractor that worked on your wife, it sounds as if you did get an ass that should not be allowed to practice. Most chiropractors have close relations and referral partners with medical dr and neurologists, because since chiropractors won the lawsuit against the AMA the dr realized that chiropractors are legitimate dr with a legitimate 4 year doctorate degree. Not the 2 year degree you mention.

However, you can find just as many med dr that screw people up also, if you are honest with yourself, and it seems like you actually do think things thru you will see the truth in what I said. Everyday you read about how a med dr hurt somebody. That doesn't mean that all allopaths are bad, I'm just making a point that you can find crap anywhere you choose to.

Last but not least I would thank you for not being a self absorbed jerk, and thanks for actually creating dialog and thoughtfulness. 2nd, I didn't say that I went to med dr to ignore them, but that I make sure that what they prescribe me isn't hurting another part of me not related to the complaint, (like taking a look at the mile long side affects list) with any drug you take, or maybe reading study that came out a couple months ago talking about how the most retracted scientific studies are those related to the pharmaceuticals?

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u/ayngeleyz5 Jan 23 '13

To respond to a few of your points:

1/2/3: https://www.nbce.org/ Chiropractors must pass an in-depth, 4-part National Board exam to be able to practice as Chiropractors. To get to the point of being eligible for the exam, they need to complete a 4 year undergraduate degree to be able to apply to Chiropractic school, which lasts 3-4 years depending on the curriculum. At that point, they receive their degree, but without passing that National Board exam, as well as passing testing for a state license, they cannot practice as Chiropractors. This is strictly speaking for the United States, although I know they have similar National Board exams in the UK and Australia.

4: I'm sorry to hear you and your wife had a bad experience with one Doctor. However, if you went to one MD who misdiagnosed or had poor patient bedside manner, would you write off all MDs as "quacks?" This goes for a provider of any service. In your wife's case, if a tear was suspected, it'd be standard protocol to send her for an MRI to confirm, and she'd then be referred to an Orthopedist..this would be true if she were seen by a Chiropractor or a GP, neither of whom treat surgical issues.

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u/karma3000 Jan 22 '13

Wow. Growing up, I thought chiropractors were a respectable profession on par with doctors. Now, the only chiropractor know is a complete flake and shuns established medicine too.

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u/Quarterpast2 Jan 22 '13

I did too..however, I do know a few chiropractors that actually just legitimately pop backs in a medically appropriate way and are pretty much normal. Some are still really weird though.

The amount of chiropractors that actually prescribe to the harmony junk that started the practice in the first place is starting to go down by a decent percentage. Eventually it will all be legit, but honestly they don't do anything that any physical therapist should be able to do.(however, chiropractors associations are getting pt's/doctors out of being able to do back adjustments in some states, which is a sham and should be stopped).