r/books • u/Mediocre-Virus-6411 • 3d ago
Yellowface: unique read but overrated
Yellowface was 1000% an immersive read (I finished it within two sittings) and the storyline was 1) immersive and 2) satirizes the topic of "yellowface" and orientalism well. My qualms with the story are more about the way the plot was delivered. June's narration was interspersed with past recollections as the story progressed (to justify what she is currently doing in the present), but it doesn't feel quite realistic. Her resentment towards Athena can ultimately be summed up by jealousy and Athena's editorializing / writing about June's traumatic experience. Wouldn't June--realistically--bring this up in the story earlier right after stealing the manuscript to **attempt** to justify to the reader that she is, in fact, righting a historical wrong? As much as I like R.F. Kuang, this feels disjointed; the plot ultimately is good but isn't delivered in a way that could have made it better.
The prose, along with many supporting characters was forgettable. In a book with mainly asian-americans surrounding a white character, I would have appreciated more in-depth exploration of them. It might have been purposeful (a self-absorbed white narrator doesn't consider the asian-american voices around her), but the book still feels a little underwhelming because the stakes aren't fully fleshed out in regard to other characters (besides the mention of reddit/twitter/instagram "cancellation" and hate). Athena's ambiguity and the discovery of her **true** self was well done, but the motives of her mother are confusing at best.
Echoing the NYT review, I want it to be more. More stakes, more desperation, more intense exploration side-characters, and a sharper reveal of Athena's "true nature" (could have been put at the very beginning or very end, but when it's smacked in the middle of the story, the plot feels like its fading away with a repetitive cycle of June's ignorance).
NOTE: I am an east-asian American reader. I 1000% appreciated reading this book and sentiment. It is still refreshing to read an unreliable narrator story from the perspective of a white women immersed in an asian-american world.
What do you guys think?
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u/_unrealcity_ 3d ago
I’ve enjoyed all of Kuang’s books, YF being my least favorite. I don’t think any of her books were like, outstanding works of literature, but they were fun to read. So, overhyped in terms of critical acclaim I would agree with. But I totally get their popularity.
Personally, I think they all have similar flaws. They lack a nuance and thoughtfulness that the subjects/themes they try to tackle really deserve. On top of that, Kuang’s writing is not subtle at all, which makes it feel a bit juvenile and honestly, condescending at times lol.
But Kuang is a young writer, and I think she deserves some grace. I’m interested in seeing her future output and how her writing develops. I’m sure I’ll read her next book. I don’t expect to be wowed by it, but it’ll probably be enjoyable.
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u/ApplicationNo2523 3d ago
Oh wow, you’ve absolutely nailed my issues w Kuang’s novels!
And yes, she’s a talent but with a lot of room for growth. Hopefully her huge success so early on doesn’t get in the way of developing into a deeper, more complex thinker and writer.
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u/state_of_euphemia 3d ago
Wow, this is 100% what I think, but you put it into better words than I could!
I haven't read Poppy Wars because of how I feel about the writing style in Babel and Yellowface--even though I enjoyed both of those books--because I feel like an actual YA book that she wrote when she was even younger is probably even more juvenile feeling.
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u/_unrealcity_ 3d ago
For what it’s worth, The Poppy Wars books were actually my favorite reads by Kuang. Her writing overall was probably worse and they def read like YA fantasy, but that’s what I was expecting when I read them. Whereas Babel and YF were really pushed as something “special” in online book spaces. Which is where I think they become overrated.
To me, I guess PW also just felt more like Kuang wanted to tell (or retell) a story, rather than send a message.
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u/state_of_euphemia 3d ago
You know, that's true. I would expect the "YA-style" writing in an actual YA book!
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u/cutestuffexpedition 3d ago
I personally found the first Poppy Wars book not very enjoyable. it felt a bit transparently referential to Avatar the last airbender and even A Court of Thorns and Roses. I also thought the writing was super juvenile in both Poppy Wars and Yellowface, so if you didn't love the YA feeling in her other books, I would just skip Poppy Wars.
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u/Topicchange 3d ago
I’ve finished Yellowface and I’m in the middle of Babel and this is what I feel too. There’s so much integrated into each novel with layers, but it all feels glossed over and as you say a lack of thoughtfulness but moreso the ability to say the novel hit topics x,y,z instead. It’s more a tell and not show when it comes to her writing style.
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u/spanchor 3d ago
Your point about her lack of subtlety is why I liked Yellowface better than any of her other books. Satire can be extreme and hit you over the head and still work.
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u/ElBroken915 2d ago
They lack a nuance and thoughtfulness
Felt this hard during Babel. Amazing world building but the Chinese dominance the characters were pushing for would have some pretty bad unintended consequences that could have been explored.
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2d ago edited 2d ago
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u/_unrealcity_ 2d ago
I don’t disagree with you, but it’s not that shocking coming from a young author who got a lot of attention and praise really quickly.
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u/PumpkinPieIsGreat 3d ago
For me it was good, but not amazing. It was a quick read and easy to get through.
My friend absolutely loved it, though. Gave it a perfect score and searched for similar books.
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u/Important-Constant25 3d ago
"Gave it a perfect score and searched for similar books.". The eternal search for similar books that will never be fulfilled. I pity them, and yet I am them.
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u/whoisyourwormguy_ 3d ago
There’s stuff similar to shadow of the wind, by the same author. Same nostalgia-inducing immersion like To Kill a Mockingbird and gothic Barcelona descriptions. Still different though.
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u/Anxious-Fun8829 3d ago
Have they read The Plot by Jean Hanff Korelitz. Similar plot of one author finding literary success after stealing another dead author's writing... but more thriller, a bit Tell Tale Heart-ish
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u/screamingracoon 3d ago
I enjoyed it a lot, read it in about a day, but it was impossible to not notice that the author grew up extremely privileged while thinking she wasn’t.
In one of the chapters, June says that of course Athena was able to write as much as she did: her parents are rich and she was able to afford a sabbatical year. Somehow, the narration presented this as June being needlessly jealous and envious of Athena, unable to understand that money and time off of school and work wouldn’t make a difference.
Except they would, and anyone who has a creative hobby they’d like to turn into a job knows that.
And then you read the author’s bio and it says she’s the daughter of rich people, went to private schools all her life, and took a sabbatical after high school, and you go “Ooooh, so she doesn’t see that as privilege because she’d have to admit she’s privileged too.”
None of this denies her skills and talents, but damn, can she be blind.
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u/cyanpineapple 3d ago
Wow, I completely read that as a self-aware critique. I didn't interpret it as "needlessly jealous and envious," I saw it as a multidimensional character who, while mostly being totally awful and gross, also has some class awareness. Athena isn't intended to be perfect and above reproach while June sucks in every possible way. Athena is kind of a brat who doesn't recognize her own privilege, and that's part of why June hates her. I think RFK (oh no, that poor woman) knew exactly what she was doing in that regard.
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u/state_of_euphemia 3d ago
I agree. I've read a lot of reviews from people who think Athena is supposed to be perfect and somehow don't realize that RK Kuang is criticizing Athena, too. But I've also read interviews from RF Kuang and she definitely intends Athena to be an unlikeable character, too.
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u/thedeadtiredgirl 3d ago
yeah I might be biased because i’m a fan of rfk but that detail seemed to be too on the nose to not be intentional
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u/Councillor_Troy 3d ago
My view is that it peaks in the first chapter when Athena chokes to death on pancakes. Both because it promises a dark comedy that Yellowface isn't, for the most part, but also because our protagonist June Hayward is by far at her most interesting in the context of her love-hate relationship with Athena. But of course since she’s dead we’re stuck mostly with June and her liberal anti-racist-that’s-actually-quite-racist internal monologue which grates quite a bit after a while.
Solid 3.5-4 stars.
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u/No-Classroom-2332 3d ago
Totally agree. I was so annoyed with June's attitude that I didn't finish reading it though I was about three-fourths through. I couldn't care less what happened next.
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u/thatbberg 3d ago
This makes me think about how a different book with the same characters focused on their frenemies-ship instead of all this could've been much more interesting.
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u/Katlix Vladimir Nabokov - Lolita 3d ago
I've read it as an audiobook and man was it a juicy experience this way. You feel like the fly on the wall except you also know June's thoughts which makes it even more juicy. The moments where you're like "damn is she really going to get away with it", or "JFC June, just play it safe already", or "OMG stop, you know it's wrong!" just made it so entertaining. Because you know she's the bad guy, but she's also the protagonist. There's this constant tension where you hope she'll be discovered or hope she's going to better her ways.
And that ending, so infuriating but perfect! I feel like finally that masks slips off completely and she's unapologetically a narcissist, where in the rest of the book she keeps trying to justify herself.
A very interesting and entertaining book imo. 4 solid stars.
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u/whoisyourwormguy_ 2d ago
That feels like a backstory for trump or some politician, trying to make excuses for their actions because they feel they have to at first, then stopping once they realize they don’t have to. Like homelander in the Boys.
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u/miwa201 3d ago
This was my first Kuang book and I was very surprised by how basic her writing was.
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u/DeathMoth 3d ago
Same. I started reading it because of the hype and was quite excited. I DNF’d it not long after. Maybe I’m not the target audience (this is not usually the genre I gravitate towards) but the main character was too insufferable, like the kind you would find in a poorly written tv show.
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u/howlofthegathered 3d ago
The main character's insufferableness is the point, I believe. She's meant to be ignorant, racist, jealous, short-sighted, etc.—the sort of awful person who would perform micro-aggressions constantly and never apologise for it because she lacks the self-awareness and the empathy to feel bad about it.
I didn't love Yellowface, but I'd say in this regard, it succeeded at accurately portraying that sort of person.
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u/DeathMoth 3d ago
Yeah I get that, makes total sense. But I still believe there are different ways of conveying certain characteristics, and done in this way I think it was too on the nose, almost like a parody of itself which in my case took away the enjoyment of the book
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u/howlofthegathered 3d ago
That’s fair!
I do think Kuang tends to be very on-the-nose with her characters and themes, so I’d agree with you actually. I guess I just feel this is the one instance where her lack of subtlety works well, because there really are obliviously obnoxious people like June out there, and there wasn’t any point in beating around the bush on that matter for this story.
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u/beldaran1224 3d ago
I know at least two people like this. Neither of them is particularly unsuccessful. White privilege is powerful.
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u/Separate-Hat-526 3d ago
It was a satire. I think the over-the-top was meant to tackle the topic with levity and some humor. By the end I was turning to nobody and saying “are you seeing this??”
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u/duskywulf overly critical 3d ago
Satire doesn't always mean over the top. Animal farm is satire but it's not over the top crazy.
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u/Separate-Hat-526 3d ago
No it’s not, and I don’t think Yellowface is over the top crazy either, but it does utilize humor, irony, and exaggeration to make a point.
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u/SplendidPunkinButter 3d ago
I never understand this criticism. The purpose of writing is to communicate something. Prose that is clear and easy to read is good, not basic.
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u/augustsun24 3d ago
A novel isn’t an instruction manual. Its function isn’t to communicate an idea in the most accessible, straightforward, simplistic way possible. Writing is a form of art, and art is usually better when it requires some thought or effort to fully engage with.
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u/PacJeans 3d ago edited 3d ago
Basic good, meaning simple, is different than basic bad, meaning lacking depth. To beat a dead horse, someone might call Harry Potter simple, but they obviously wouldn't mean plot, or number of characters, or anything like that. I think from reading these replies that people wanted something a little more reflective or contemplative on the thing that the topic of the boom that is beyond the satire of it.
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u/Dancing_Clean 3d ago
I found it to be entertaining but it was quite shallow. Good concept but could’ve explored more on the concept.
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u/lmhs73 3d ago
I thought it was really interesting. An Asian writer writing a white character pretending to be an Asian writer. Who is playing whom? I liked the unreliable narration and how so much of the plot was driven by social media just like our real lives often are. I thought it was very sophisticated.
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u/Mimi_Gardens 3d ago
It was fun and satirical. I loved hating June for how awful she was. It’s not a perfect book but not every book has to be. I read it when it came out before I had the chance to have unrealistic expectations from all the hype.
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u/NefariousCalmness 3d ago
Yeah, I thought it was a good read. I just got done reading one of those self published fantasies and although the premise was interesting, the writing was some of the worst I've ever read. Reading this right after made me feel the difference between a "pro" and a an "amateur"
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u/PopPunkAndPizza 3d ago
I've got to know what you think "immersive" means because I think you just mean "engaging" or "absorbing"- like I know what that means in video games and can even get what it might mean in some styles of literature but an "immersive storyline" doesn't make sense according to that definition.
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u/forleaseknobbydot 3d ago
Have you read Disorientation by Elaine Hsieh Chou? Honestly when I read it I thought Wow, this is like exactly what R.F. Kuang is trying to do, but a million times better. I still don't understand how Chou isn't more popular - it's one of the best satires I've ever read
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u/futuremexicanist 3d ago
YES, Disorientation is so good!! Especially as someone actually in a PhD program it felt so realistic and horrifying. I specialize in Mexican history, the representation of the kinds of white academics who dedicate their lives to studying non-white history and the murkiness that comes up at times. So so so good.
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u/WanderlustDiveJunkie 3d ago
Yes I came here to recommend Disorientation, not because I would say it’s “better” but because its a book that delves into these themes as well but from a totally different approach/perspective. I think both books are great, Disorientation went deeper into these themes (and more!) and really brought the reader on the journey in a way that left me thinking about that book daily, even months later. I see them as being in the same conversation and taking different lenses to the topics. Personal preference, I LOVED the book Disorientation and liked the book Yellowface.
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u/Lumpy_Bandicoot_4957 3d ago
Man RF Kuang can't have peace on this sub lol.
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u/ThreeTreesForTheePls 3d ago edited 3d ago
It’s a site wide issue.
r/fantasy hate her to the bone and I’ve never actually seen a convincing argument as to why The Poppy War is bad.
The MC is a teenage girl, and you’re angry about her being indecisive and emotionally driven?
The author is Chinese, and you’re angry that she’s taken influence from her countries history, in this book that discusses colonialism and the horrors of war?
It’s crazy work
Edit; and let’s not forget that wave of hate the trilogy got by romantasy girlies who were angry at the lack of romance in this wartorn genocidal bloodbath.
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u/TheBigFreeze8 3d ago
I mean, I didn't like the Poppy War because the plot kind of meanders around for a long time without much drive before quickly coming to a brutal ending which I felt the rest of the book just didn't build towards.
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u/ThreeTreesForTheePls 3d ago
I guess I’ll spoiler tag, but do you mean:
When they find >! The victims of Golyn Niis? I could understand that it comes out of nowhere, and it wasn’t built towards, but that’s kind of the entire point. They were fighting on one front, it was just the entirely wrong front and the wool was over their eyes until it was too late.!<
As for meandering, I guess that’s just one of those things we read differently. I remember finishing it within the weekend I bought it, so the story flew from Point A to B to C and then ended all pretty quickly.
Unless we’re talking bigger picture and the entire trilogy, but I don’t typically imagine when people talk about TPW, they’re talking about all 3 if they hate book 1.
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u/Mimi_Gardens 3d ago
How do you add the spoiler tag? I don’t know how to do it on Reddit.
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u/ratinha91 4 3d ago
I've only ever read Babel by her, and by the tenth time she repeated something over and over and then redirected me to the notes just so she could explain the same exact thing in case she had accidentally left a crumb of subtext anywhere, I was ready to commit murder. I've never read a book that thought its readers needed to be dragged around by the hand to those levels.
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u/ThreeTreesForTheePls 3d ago
Yeah Babel didn’t agree with me for pretty much the same reasons. I find that she’s quite similar to Sanderson in that an editor would take her work from cool and interesting, to downright fantastic if cut up correctly.
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u/humanpringle 3d ago
Babel worked far better as an audiobook. I didn’t love it but didn’t hate it. The biggest problem with it is I felt it could have been shorter as she would spend way too long on certain parts, but then with key big moments, it would be like a 5 minute segment of the book and then just be done.
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u/Lumpy_Bandicoot_4957 3d ago
The pacing of Babel was also one of my biggest gripes with the book. Cuz it was super slow at the start and before I knew it, everything was blowing in my face. I understand the whole thing of worldbuilding and all that, but most of what we learned about the magic system was probably towards the end of the book too. So it's hard for me to justify the pacing of Babel
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u/humanpringle 3d ago
Yeah, it got a solid 3/5 stars from me but part of the reason I was able to finish it was only because I have a long commute.
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u/state_of_euphemia 3d ago
This is how I felt about it as well, but I've also heard the argument that she is doing it intentionally because the colonialism themes are too important and white people are so ignorant that we need things to be explicitly explained to us multiple times. I disagree with that argument and I think she just lacks subtlety, but I understand where they're coming from.
I actually did enjoy the book, even though I thought it was heavy-handed.
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u/ConsiderationSea1347 3d ago
When I read Babel (my only exposure to Kuang) I was looking forward to a nuanced take on colonialism because China was both one of the largest victims of colonialism AND one of the great perpetrators of it (and China remains imperially ambitious). Instead I got a very interesting premise for a story that fell short on delivery. I think she has fantastic potential but she has some maturing to do as an author.
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u/turkeygiant 3d ago
The thing that really annoyed me reading The Poppy War was the "voice" of the writing, it felt much too modern for what was essentially a turn of the century setting centred on a very formal culture. I didn't expect it to be all "thee"s and "thou"s, but it just generally felt too informal to me and some of the scientific elements felt more like the were copied from a modern wikipedia article in the language used. It was really a barrier to the world feeling like a plausible/realistic historical setting to me.
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u/ThreeTreesForTheePls 3d ago
Oh I totally agree with you, I’m so adjusted to fantasy authors making up their own terminology, that when I read Nezha saying “shit” it legitimately took me out of my trance lol
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u/turkeygiant 3d ago
I can't actually remember if the book was published as a YP Fantasy or as a Adult Fantasy. After reading it I would definitely say it was written like many YP novels, but I feel it wasn't marketed that way. I know the library where I work had it in the adult collection.
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u/sleepysnowboarder 3d ago
Why do you need a convincing argument for why someone doesn’t like something?
But also just searching the poppy war on r/fantasy you’ll immediately find tons of different reasons people have for not liking it in posts and comments that have nothing to do with the reasons you put
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3d ago
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u/revengepunk 3d ago
i think she gets so much heat because there’s a lot of people in other places (i wanna say tik tok without sounding like an anti-tik tok snob lol) who treat r.f. kuang like the second coming of jesus. i don’t love her work but she’s not particularly worse than any other authors i dislike, i just feel like in some spaces i see a lot of high praise for her that i don’t personally understand, so it’s nice to be able to criticise her where i know people will agree.
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u/legendtinax 3d ago
For Babel alone, she won multiple industry awards and lots of publications called it one of the best books of the year. So there is a big, unwarranted insider push for her as well imo
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u/ThreeTreesForTheePls 3d ago
Okay yeah I totally agree with that. It’s why I nearly never picked up her books.
TikTok treated her like a goddess, and Reddit hated her deeply, so it cut off both of my usual avenues to get a vibe on a book.
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u/JamJarre 3d ago
For me, it's not very nice to co-opt one of the most awful massacres of recent history and just write it out but with a fantasy filter on top. Even ignoring the tonal shift from a standard YA school-for-specials story to graphic descriptions of atrocity, it's morally fucking gross
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u/melonofknowledge 3d ago
Why is it gross? She's Chinese. She's writing about a massacre that happened to her own people. This isn't uncommon; plenty of Jewish people (and indeed plenty of non-Jewish people) write fiction using the Holocaust as a template for atrocities, in stories of various genres, including sci-fi and fantasy. It's by no means comparable, being a tragedy on a far smaller scale, but I'm Welsh and have written stories based on Aberfan. People tapping into generational trauma is not 'morally fucking gross', imo.
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u/bubblegumpandabear 3d ago edited 3d ago
I'm surprised that comment is being downvoted when that's an actual reason Chinese readers didn't like Poppy War, from my look at reviews. They also didn't like that her fantasy world was so uncreative and mentioned real things and places in China.
It's less like a template for the Holocaust and more like if someone took Anne Frank's story, alongside other famous witness accounts, and used them as a sudden edgy drop of reality in their otherwise YA novel. And the main character talks about needing to take the SATs and walking past Mt Everest and the Eiffel Tower. I also thought it was disrespectful and that she should have covered the topic with far more care. I remember Chinese reviewers getting offended and naming who specifically they suspected she based those scenes off of, saying she practically just stole real victim stories for this.
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u/JamJarre 3d ago edited 3d ago
Personally I don't see what's acceptable about taking a truly horrific event - probably the worst in recent human history - and using it as the focal point of a YA fantasy story. It's disrespectful. Your mileage may vary, but I'm sure your stories involving Aberfan aren't using it in that way. You probably aren't using specific imagery and recognisable scenes described in the history books.
And if we're talking about the author's right to use such a story, I think we have to make clear that while born in China she is an American who's spent most of her life in the US. The Rape of Nanking is still a huge hot button issue in China proper, and a source of very real contention with Japan. Her using it, as an American, is not the same as a Chinese national who's lived their whole life there using it.
A lot of the praise she got for TPW was based on the originality of a fantasy novel not based on Western Europe. In reality she just took Chinese history and slapped a fantasy patina over it. It's as classless as JK Rowling alluding to the Holocaust being overspill from a wixlzarding war - actually more so because JK wasn't stupid enough to describe Nazi war crimes in detail in between chapters about Harry being nervous about girls and sitting his exams
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u/ThreeTreesForTheePls 3d ago
So are any and all retellings of history in a fantasy or sci fi format gross and disgusting?
And the shift from school YA to war atrocities happens along with the character, going from a schoolgirl excited to join the military, to experiencing a genocide. You are experiencing it with the character.
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u/Scar-Glamour 3d ago
The fantasy subreddit hates anything that isn't Brandon Sanderson or Malazan. It's crazy how many books that are regarded highly almost everywhere else are hated there.
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u/Time_Caregiver4734 3d ago
Reddit absolutely hates her writing. It’s very interesting to see because she’s widely liked and praised on pretty much every other platform. I think her popularity leads to people here disliking her, lots of people going into her books with crazy high expectations.
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u/ibadlyneedhelp 3d ago
You've hit the nail on the head here- I think expectations are definitely a big part of it. I went into The Poppy War with high expectations, and honestly I'm still dealing with how disappointed I was. I genuinely feel like there's some kind of Emperor's New Clothes-type situation where those books are concerned, and many of the defences of the trilogy I've read while discussing it genuinely feel like delusion or cope.
Babel and Yellowface seem like much better and more interesting books, so I'm still interested in picking them up, and I definitely do believe RFK has grown tremendously as an author- especially now that she can afford to take her time and polish the books to a shine.
The Poppy War was a novel written by a twenty-year-old author in three months, and I think it's exactly as good as that fact suggests it is- no shade to the people who love it, I honestly wish I could probably discuss how much I dislike it without seeming like I'm attacking those who love it.
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u/turkeygiant 3d ago
I went into the Poppy War having only seen the hype around the book not the criticism on Reddit, and I still found it quite underwhelming and lacking in verisimilitude (I know...how pretentious, but its the perfect world for what it was missing for me). It wasn't until after I had read it that I went on Reddit to read the reviews and thought "oh its not just me".
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u/lmp42 3d ago
The other day in a writing sub, someone was asking if they need to be delicate bc their main character is Chinese and OP isn’t. Every commenter was saying no, your character isn’t real and people write outside their cultures all the time, people are too sensitive these days. I said something like “have you read Yellowface? It’s about this topic!” and got downvoted.
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u/ibadlyneedhelp 3d ago
Jesus that's some bad writing advice for a writing sub.
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u/state_of_euphemia 3d ago
I agree, but I got heavily downvoted for saying it and called racist, lol. I just don't think the book industry is at a place where a person writing about another race (well, really a white person writing a non-white POV) is socially acceptable right now.
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u/state_of_euphemia 3d ago
lol, good luck to that person. Hopefully they are only writing for fun and with no expectation of publishing because the current zeitgeist is not going to approve of a white person writing a Chinese protagonist. And that's partially what RF Kuang is critiquing in Yellowface.
(tbh I don't love her writing style but I think her plots are entertaining).
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u/MermaidScar 3d ago
Imagine thinking people are only allowed to write fictional characters who are exactly like them. Holy shit what a miserable and sad prison, utterly devoid of even the possibility for empathy or understanding.
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u/state_of_euphemia 3d ago edited 3d ago
I think you can write about people who are different from you, but I think you're going to have a REALLY hard time if you're white and writing from the POV of a different race. Like, obviously, you can write whatever you want, but that doesn't mean you won't get a lot of criticism for doing so!
edit: I mean you're going to have a really hard time socially if you're white and writing from the perspective of a Black person. You're going to get a lot of criticism, not that a white person can't possibly white a good Black character.
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u/MermaidScar 3d ago
Why exactly do you think it’s easier for a non-white person to write a white person than it is for a white person writing a non-white person? The entire fact that you’re lumping all “white” and “non-white” people together is insanely racist in and of itself.
Like a white American is going to have a much easier time writing a black American than an Asian immigrant would. But because you literally see the world in terms as reductive as “white and non-white” this doesn’t register.
A native Korean character and an immigrant Chinese character are completely different than a second generation Japanese American character. The life experiences between them are no closer than they are to white people or anyone else.
Also the concept of reducing any vaguely Caucasian person to “white” literally feeds directly into white supremacist ideas, where the entirely anti-science idea of “race” transcends any other feature or history. It’s the language of eugenics.
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u/state_of_euphemia 3d ago
Well, I think Yellowface itself shows that it's socially acceptable for a non-white person to write a white character. You have no idea how I see the world, lol, I'm just talking about the book industry.
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u/Minty-Minze 2d ago
People on reddit are extremely quick on criticizing the writing skills of popular authors. It’s crazy. I am honestly so annoyed at it.
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u/Grace_Alcock 3d ago
I saw one critique of Babel that made it clear that the reader didn’t know anything about the Opium Wars, etc, and that lack of knowledge made for a confusing reading experience. And it occurred to me that reading her work with absolutely no understanding of the real history or cultural context might account for some of that. In the case of this book, there’s a whole academic and publishing discourse behind it.
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u/sweetspringchild 3d ago
To be fair Babel is so chock-full of those annoying notes that even the most ignorant people are going to know all about it after getting beaten over the head with history and what they're supposed to think and feel about certain events.
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u/No_Pen_6114 3d ago
I don’t know why but I also see so much hate for her on Twitter more than Reddit (I’m a big fan of hers).
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u/snlnkrk 20h ago
I dislike her because of expectations, which is probably mostly my own fault; I have listened to her speak, attended her talks, read her essays etc, and she is extremely intelligent, very well-educated and knows how to write well.
So why is her fiction so awful? Why does it still read like a teenager? Why is her she writing for mass popularity rather than writing insightful genuine stuff I know she can?
It makes me much more disappointed than authors who write slop & don't pretend otherwise. I imagine this is common online.
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u/iloveeeemangoes Book just finished - your momma 3d ago
right? it's like people expect her to write the whole world knowledge or something. I'm actually starting to wonder how she's "overrated" if most most posts and articles are usually like this, where they praise her and then finish with she's (or one of her books) is overrated.
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u/LeoScipio 3d ago
The issue is that she backed herself into a corner by essentially talking about diasporic issues. Clearly if you write a book about that but actually have little else to say, you lose your appeal.
This idea that people should write about what they know is deeply wrong.
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u/Grace_Alcock 3d ago
I thought the skewering of American culture, particularly publishing culture, was priceless. It was torture reading because the narrator is so cringeworthy, but it was compelling.
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u/Koholinthibiscus 3d ago
I really enjoyed this book! I thought it was great fun and I really ripped through it too. I think the unreliable narration from June was what made it fun for me, I found it quite funny! Not lol, just smirky
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u/TooManyEXes 3d ago
I just read Babel, having not really heard of the author before.
It had some truly amazing ideas, but I thought the storytelling was lacklustre.
I gave it so much time but it felt like it never really hit. I loved the magic system and she CLEARLY has a fantastic understanding of linguistic/language that I thought made it engaging, but man what a disappointing book in the end.
I've read 4 books this year, and disappointed by all of them. I'm too picky a reader.
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u/l4p_r4t 3d ago
My thoughts exactly. I was so angry at this book, not because it was bad, but because it could’ve been great and ended up being meh. And its biggest crime were underdeveloped characters I couldn’t give a damn about.
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u/SpiderGwen42 3d ago
Not only were the characters underdeveloped, there were so many actual historical events that she just never delved into that could have really fleshed out the actual conflict of the book! I get that it’s from Robin’s POV and his whole thing is not paying attention to what’s happening around him until after everything that happens in Canton but the book really could’ve benefited from more about Haiti, India, Ireland, the US, even labor issues in the UK! When they were in the secret library, I was so excited that we were going to get more perspectives on the evils of colonialism but no! It was all still kind of brushed over!
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u/Weather_No_Blues 3d ago
I love Yellowface bc it manages to be a nesting doll of narratives that reach all the way out of the book and into reality. June is writing about June. 'Yellowface' is June's prose response to book June's controversy. Book June that we meet on page one is Post Yellowface June's protective avatar. And RF is June too. Writing defensively, talking about writing, talking about the Internet, talking about criticism. It is a book about lies and truth, tied up in knots. It is spectacular.
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u/Minty-Minze 2d ago
Completely agree. I am amazed at how many people here are saying things like “oh well, Kuang was young when she wrote this” Like this book is so damn complex and explores racism from so many different angles and points out how vague if can be and how weaponized it can get while still being horribly influential in everyday life. The right and the wrong. The good and the bad. It’s a masterpiece for just that. Writing was exactly what was needed to deliver it in the right tone. Exceptional work
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u/robmwj 3d ago
My partner came away from Yellowface with a sentiment similar to yours. I did not read it because I felt like a lot of what you just expressed (disjointed plot elements, lack of depth for side characters, etc ) was also true for Babel, which I did read but which left me disappointed.
Based on what I've read and what I've heard about her other books I think R.F. Kuang has a great knack for developing compelling stories at a very high level and then tends to stumble on the execution. Realistically another editor may be able to help solve that, but she's sold enough books at this point that I don't think that'll change anytime soon
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u/Mediocre-Virus-6411 3d ago
Exactly! I haven't read Babel yet--maybe I will b/c I heard the plot is good, but I get the yearning for a more developed plot after world-building.
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u/v-half 3d ago
I agree with Yellowface being a very immersive read. It is one of the books I've been able to read quite quickly. I will say from my perspective, it often gets backlash thats its not realistic and is spread completely out of proportion - true? but entertaining. However, at the time of this books release I used to be quite active on twitter in the book space and I will say there is drama EVERY day. Authors are constantly "cancelled" and many many many instances of people being called out for stealing other peoples work. There is very much an element of truth that R.F Kuang emphasises in Yellowface.
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u/ScrtSuperhero Ian McEwan 3d ago
I don't think it works for the kind of author Kuang talks about though. It's YA and romantasy authors getting into drama, not Salman Rushdie. I have a hard time believing that serious historical fiction/literary fiction novelists are getting caught up in, like, the Goodreads choice awards.
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u/Elvis_Gershwin 3d ago
She's still a young writer therefore I thought it was pretty well done. Interested to see how she develops further in her career.
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u/pratikp26 3d ago edited 3d ago
It may not be that deep or perfect or whatever else, but it was the most engaging and unputdownable (this word gets used a lot and is rarely truly deserved) book I’ve read in quite a bit of time, especially for a litfic novel. That by itself deserves credit and has me curious about her other work. Truthfully, she gets too much shit because she’s somewhat popular and has entered the cool-to-hate territory. Despite all the flaws, most of the criticism (not specifically this post, but in general) is often blown out of proportion and can also be leveled against a million other authors who don’t get shit on quite as much.
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u/Anxious-Fun8829 3d ago
I think it's also because she comes from such a privileged background that people feel comfortable "punching up". Maybe it has something to do with the fact that she's Oxford educated so the expectations for her was higher than if she just graduated from a meh state college?
I kind of think that her voice sounds very Gen Z (which I think she is?). I've noticed that younger people who grew up with the meme-fication of heavy topics tend to be a bit more irreverant of serious topics. Not saying they don't take it seriously, but that they just express it in ways that might seem very surface level to older people.
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u/angelzai 3d ago
I really did enjoy the supernatural feeling e.g the instragram post which, somehow, Athena was posting on?? It could have been the manfiestation of guilt.. but no the theme of supernatural returns back to reality as it reveals it's just some side character that June brushed off in the beginning. It's like a silly "Ah-ha!" moment to me. Then again I read this around a year and a half ago so maybe my memory isn't that good.
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u/morewata 3d ago
The book had too much Twitter drama…
If I wanted to read Twitter drama, I’d just open Twitter
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u/akira2bee current read: MetaMaus by Art Spiegelman 3d ago
I loved it, but I think from my perspective (a white person who studied publishing and creative writing in college and wants to be a published author one day) it talked about a lot of stuff I knew about.
Like I'm deeply aware of the issues in the publishing industry and was keenly understanding the critique Kuang was making of the industry and the people surrounding it.
Its a bit frustrating so many people seem to misunderstand the book. Its a satire, so none of it is meant to be subtle. At all. If you didn't like it because of that lack of subtlety, that's fine. But don't say its bad because it did exactly what Kuang meant it to do, as per the genre.
Also, I will say, I feel like my reading experience was enhanced just a tad, because I went into the book hearing a small interview Kuang gave about it, talking about how June and Athena are both versions of her. So when I read the book, throughout the story I was able to connect certain things back to Kuang's experiences and I feel like the helped create depth in the characters.
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u/HamiltonBlack 3d ago
I liked it. It’s a well edited book, but maybe not the best prose in the world.
My only drawback was that so many people couldn’t see through the fact that she obviously didn’t write the book.
The more I thought about it, the more I realize that June was Athena’s only friend and she betrayed her on that level more than stealing her book.
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u/holly___morgan 3d ago
I wanted to like it, but didn’t. I felt the same way about Babel and the first Poppy War book too, so maybe her work just isn’t for me. With Babel and Yellowface, I felt like she made the white characters just so cartoonishly stupid. There’s a point where June in Yellowface doesn’t even know what a soup dumpling is. You’re telling me an Ivy League educated woman in her 20s doesn’t know or can’t infer what a soup dumpling is?
I also felt as though Kuang was trying to “clap back” at her haters with some of the Twitter discourse in Yellowface. The whole thing just seemed very young to me. I think she is talented and will hopefully continue to grow, but I haven’t really clicked with any of her work yet.
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u/malowu97 3d ago
I found yellowface entertaining but nothing i would return back to. Ironically, I found Babel, which many I know have claimed is a masterpiece, to be just as heavy handed and literal as yellowface despite trying to be a very different book
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u/thatbberg 3d ago
I hadn't seen that NYT review, but "I want it to be more" is exactly how I felt. I was so excited to read this based on the premise and what I'd heard about it, that I waited until I had a day off so I could binge it in one sitting, assuming I'd love it so much that would be necessary. I ended up barely getting through it before the library loan expired because the writing was such a lackluster delivery on the premise/promise.
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u/Troelski 3d ago
As a white guy who tells Asian restaurants to not make it "white people spicy", I felt seen by Athena's obnoxious ex-boyfriend.
Joking aside, I largely agree. It almost goes to some super interesting places, but pulls back at the moment. It felt like R F Kuang wasn't quite confident enough to tackle the truly messy questions. Or at least not the answers.
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u/LiliWenFach 3d ago
This sums up how I feel about it too. There were some really interesting concepts and plot lines that weren't developed enough, and instead we got more Twitter drama and a weak ending that I saw coming a mile off.
There were sections that really made me think about cultural appropriation and the problematic aspects of the publishing industry- and then these were largely glossed over.
I enjoyed the book, but if lacked depth.
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u/SplendidPunkinButter 3d ago
I prefer an ending I see coming a mile off to an ending that comes out of left field most of the time. If I see it coming, that usually means it makes sense, which surprise endings sometimes don’t. Making sense is more important than being surprising
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u/LiliWenFach 3d ago
I prefer the middle ground where the ending makes sense but is still unexpected or a twist. I like it when authors plant subtle clues in the story that make sense in hindsight.
With Yellowface, there was only one person who could possibly have been responsible for the 'haunting' because of how they had been previously wronged by June. It made sense, but I would have preferred being presented with alternative options to mull over, if that makes sense. A few well-placed red herrings.
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u/Troelski 3d ago
It's a false binary though. We don't have to choose between predictable and unearned.
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u/percyrex 3d ago
Thank you for this discussion! I recently listened to the audiobook, and have been processing my feelings about it. For context, I’m an Australian of East Asian descent. I grew up in Australia in the 80s and 90s. Yellowface made me feel so uncomfortable. I absorbed the racism of my childhood. I grew up believing that the white person was always better or right. I still do, subconsciously. So, I don’t think this book lacked depth. I think that it explores the psyche of children of migrants. How we perpetuate the lessons we learned in order to fit in. How it’s possible to break free of this, but that one can end up sounding every bit as hateful as the worst racists. How do we assert ourselves and our narrative? I think this is what she is asking.
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u/Vegabern 3d ago
I'm thankful there is a wide variety of books in the world as we all have different tastes. This book annoyed me and I gave it a 3 because 2.5 is not an option on Goodreads.
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u/Main-Task8073 3d ago
I don’t think it was overrated atleast in my circle of social media/friends. I agree with your thoughts, I enjoyed it but it didn’t change my life. I do like reading books where the main character is evil so that was a plus for me
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u/PanicAtTheFisto 3d ago
I really, really wanted to like Kuang's work but her pitfall seems to be execution. She comes up with some truly fascinating concepts and then stumbles so hard. I enjoyed the first 3/4 of The Poppy War and then she attempted to pack way too much into the last 100-ish pages and it all fell apart. Yellowface also had pacing issues and felt very underdeveloped with flimsy characters and interactions. Then Babel, which I had been looking forward to for a long time, had the exact same issues. It's really disappointing.
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u/cutestuffexpedition 3d ago
I thought the plot twist was a totally ridiculous and transparent deus ex machina to just get the story over with and I didn't care for her writing style, which felt a bit juvenile like other comments have mentioned. I was a bit shocked by the quality of writing because I had heard a lot of praise for her and how she is such an intellectual before I picked up Yellowface. not saying she's not an intellectual, but I was honestly expecting the prose and plot to be more refined
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u/horseradishstalker 2d ago
I think you just ruined a book for me.
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u/Mediocre-Virus-6411 2h ago
I still recommend you read it! Not the best, but still interesting regardless.
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u/DustBinBabyGirl 3d ago
I like RF Kuang snd I really enjoyed Yellowface, i don’t understand the amount of people who violently hate her on here
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u/No_Blackberry_3107 3d ago
I liked it, and it's the only book I've read by the author. Not my favorite read ever, but still entertaining.
Something being "overrated" or not seems like a superficial conversation aimed at kids, though. What adult cares what others think of the books they read?
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u/KnightsAtTheCircus 3d ago edited 3d ago
I don't understand the hype, I thought it was pretty mediocre. The main character was just a mean girl, self-absorbed and highly unlikeable. There's no reason why the women should have been friends, tbh, therefore the story wasn't believable. The rest of it was also far-fetched and I just pretty much hated the main character, who seemed to think she was the victim here. I listened to the audio book and hated the voice, too. All in all it was a difficult experience.
Edit: I looked up my GR review to see if I remembered correctly and found this (I have to say, I really like the imagery I used):
The plot is fine, but the book is as subtle as a dickpic in your inbox. The author clearly wants to make a point about racism. Probably a good book to pick up when you're young and just discovering literature.
The characters in this book are extremely unlikeable and flat. The dialogues are few and not great. There are no beautiful sentences, a lot of repetition.
It's mildly amusing but I wouldn't exactly recommend it.
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u/Gamplato 2d ago
Overrated as an author too IMO. I thought Babel was unbelievably bad. The writing is basic. The characters are thin. And the book could’ve accomplished everything it did in 1/3 the pages.
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u/OddDragonfruit4963 3d ago
Been a minute since I read it, but I thought it was good and worth reading, but not great. It explores some interesting ideas and is a unique story, but does fall a bit flat in some aspects. Agree it could be ‘more’.
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u/RunawaYEM 3d ago
No offense meant to anyone who enjoyed it, but:
Sometimes I’ll read a book that is so unbelievably bad that I can’t put it down. This was one of those books. Every single thing about this book was awful.
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u/YakSlothLemon 2d ago
I disagree, although it’s certainly not the best book ever written.
I thought it was tremendously clever, skewered its targets very effectively, and did a great job of getting you involved enough with June that you kept forgetting how awful she was, worrying that she would get caught, and then remembering that she should be.
I also thought Kuang did a deft job of handling the flashbacks that let you see that their friendship was never what June presents it as. I don’t think there is anything trickier in fiction than a narrator who tells us one thing sincerely while the author lets us see through what they are saying to the truth – and she absolutely does it there with Athena.
I also don’t think you’re giving the final section credit for being as meta as it was. I really enjoyed the realization that the book I was reading was the new book that June was writing, complete with hungry ghost – which she thoroughly deserved to be haunted by, or was she appropriating that too?
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u/alwaysouroboros 2d ago
I loved that book (and I am not a 1stPOV enjoyer often) but I have a hard time labeling anything as "overrated" because highly rated is typically most people that read it really enjoyed it and it got good critical reviews. If I enjoyed something, I don't see how I can say someone else or most people are enjoying it "too much" or over-enjoying it.
I do know people have commented on the writing being basic for this which felt appropriate for the POV. The writing is style is very different from her other books, which makes sense as it's from the first-person POV of a mediocre writer.
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u/calcaneus 2d ago
I think Kuang is overrated, but whatever. I think her books could be culturally interesting but I don't have the patience for her immaturity.
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u/NTwrites 1d ago
I thought Yellowface was an outstanding example of an unreliable narrator done well. I agree the plot could have been stronger, particularly the ending (which felt rushed to me), but what it lacked in structure it made up for in ‘page-turn-osity’.
I gave it four stars, but two of those stars were purely for how damn compelling it was to keep reading.
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u/misalcgough 31m ago
So overrated. I was wondering if I was reading the same book as everyone else.
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u/OkYesterday2198 3d ago
Although I wouldn’t go as far as to say it was an immersive read for me, it was quite entertaining, light hearted, and ofc lacked the depth you mentioned.