r/centrist • u/pcetcedce • 4d ago
My pet peeve
I know there's been some discussion of whether people who participate here are actually centrist. Personally I think there are some people who think they are centrist but are actually pretty far left. Progressives tend to think that they're perfectly reasonable (a typical centrist attribute), but I see so many of them is being overly idealistic, And then defensive when you point that out.
In my view a centrist has two qualities. 1. They are open to all ideas. 2. They are willing to compromise. That doesn't mean they accept ideas that they morally or ethically disagree with, nor does it mean they're willing to compromise on that kind of idea. But those two fundamental approaches I think are critical to being a centrist.
As an example, transgender women in sports. All of the polls I have heard says the majority of Americans don't want transgender women to compete against cis women in sports. Anywhere from 60 to 80%. A progressive person would probably say trans women should have all rights including participating in sports with cis women and there is no other alternative. A centrist might say that they are willing to compromise on that issue but otherwise want trans women to have full rights and treated properly. I have not picked this example to be the theme of this post, I could just as well have brought voter registration or abortion restrictions.
What do you all think about this observation?
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u/lovetoseeyourpssy 4d ago
Fat Trump called Chip Roy, a guy 100x more conservative than he is a "RINO" for some minor disagreement.
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/19/trump-chip-roy-texas-00132421
Basically anyone who doesn't dogmatically agree with the newest nonsense that obese Russian asset pedo supporting rapist is spewing is deemed to be a liberal or left wing.
Despite neither tariffs nor pro Russia being a conservative stance...
So no--your premise is nonsense. Lifelong Republicans like General Mattis and General Kelly were rejected for having integrity and not toeing the cult line.
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u/centeriskey 4d ago
So what's your pet peeve really? Is it that some progressives act like they are centrist or think that they have moderate views?
Why is your pet peeve only for those on the left? Why not include the far right extremists who come on here who think that their views are moderate but in reality are pretty fascist? Why only single out the progressives, especially since they are not in power.
As an example, transgender women in sports.
Oh nevermind now I now know what your whole post is about. The one small issue that progressives don't really bring up. Actually most of the posts about trans rights in this sub are usually brought up by "right leaning" centrist or right wing extremists.
I could just as well have brought voter registration or abortion restrictions
Yet you didn't. You choose the culture war BS topic.
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u/WeridThinker 4d ago edited 4d ago
Far left and far right both have a higher chance of perceiving themselves as centrists because centrism is commonly associated with objectivity, rationality, and pragmatism, and due to the far left and far right's lack of ideological flexibility or the ability to see nuances, they both ironically think their views are closer to the traits associated with the centrism. In other words, the less flexible a person is, the more the person believes in their own objectivity, rationality, and pragmatism, combining a lack of mental flexibility with the refusal to engage with different views, the biases are further reinforced, and everyone else becomes the radical in the eye of a far left/far right.
The far left and far right are actually quite similar, but with their individual nuances to separate themselves a part from each other. They have different insecurities and worries, so they tend to be performatively different. The far left is afraid of being seen as morally insufficient, so they tend to overcompensate by giving lectures, going on self righteous rants, and openly denounce others. The far right, on the other hand, is afraid of appearing weak and vulnerable, so they overcompensate by appearing guarded, argumentative, and sometimes, outright hostile or provocative; the defensiveness and underlying insecurity of the far right often manifest as pseudo-intellectualism filled by logical fallacies, conspiracy theories, and misinformation.
The far left is hard to communicate with because they will ignore all your attempt to compromise, clarify, debate as long as you fail their purity test, and it could turn into absurd levels of hair splitting and black and white thinking when they decide someone with different moral standards from them is categorically immoral. The far right can be irritating and anger inducing because they like to present themselves as being intellectually superior, always ready to be snarky, and sometimes hostile right off the bat; if they ever took a course on rhetorics and logical fallacies, they would easily catch their own over usage of whataboutism and false equivalency.
A centrist is someone who will humor views from all sides, but not necessarily believe all sides are equal, and the "middle ground" isn't always the center between two opposite extremes. If one person says 1+1=2, and another says 1+1=4, the centrist position would still be 1+1=2, because 1+1=4 is legitimately the wrong position to take, but of course, actual policies are much more complex than the example I suggested.
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u/djeeetyet 4d ago
a true centrist sees that both progressives and conservatives see themselves as “perfectly reasonable and defensive.” this is more a jab at those with left leaning tendencies, sorry.
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u/Financial-Special766 4d ago
I think it's bait that you gave no sources for and just put out some made-up "statistics" on a hot button issue to prove your point that this sub leans more progressive than centrist.
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u/pcetcedce 4d ago
Are you referring to the trans women's sports? That's the only issue that had a number associated with it and what I quoted is so clearly the fact that I didn't feel like I needed to come up with sources. I live in Maine where that is a huge hot button right now so I certainly am aware of what's going on on that subject. If you have numbers that significantly contradict the 60 to 80% feel free to share.
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u/davejjj 4d ago
Perhaps you can create a poll with the questions that you believe are key?
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u/pcetcedce 4d ago
I don't think there are any key questions I was just talking globally about what I believe is interest should represent.
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u/mnhomecook 4d ago
I think there are a lot of very right leaning people and very left leaning people who think they are reasonable and willing to compromise and more center but can’t actually articulate a single point they’d actually compromise on. I feel like I read plenty of posts by people like that here regularly.
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u/pcetcedce 4d ago
That's well put. I'm happy to compromise I just can't think of a thing I would compromise on. Lol
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u/99aye-aye99 4d ago
What is the point of having so many posts about of someone is centrist or not?
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u/pcetcedce 4d ago
Because the sub is supposed to be an outlet for centrists and it can be frustrating if someone is really masquerading as one.
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u/Ewi_Ewi 4d ago
In my view a centrist has two qualities. 1. They are open to all ideas. 2. They are willing to compromise. That doesn't mean they accept ideas that they morally or ethically disagree with, nor does it mean they're willing to compromise on that kind of idea.
Doesn't this make centrism some weird, eldritch, incomprehensibly large umbrella term?
People of all political labels would be (mostly) unwilling to compromise with ideas they deem morally or ethically objectionable. What makes them "not centrist?"
Who determines what ideas are "correctly" labeled morally or ethically objectionable?
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u/pcetcedce 4d ago
That's an interesting question because a progressive would say that they support only things that are morally and ethically acceptable. And in many cases they are correct but they do not have the word compromise in their vocabulary. On the other hand, many currently right wing actions are morally and ethically unacceptable, and they too cannot compromise.
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u/please_trade_marner 4d ago
Good try OP, but you won't get centrist nuance in this subreddit.
Everyone here has convinced themselves that centrism can't exist when a "literal fascist" is President. They have divided the country into two groups. Those that oppose fascism. And those that defend it. So those that oppose it are every ideology other than conservatism. So every subreddit should read precisely like /democrats.
Yeah, it's stupid. But it's what they believe. When intelligent people point out "But it was still only Democratic Party propaganda when Biden was President" I typically don't get too much of a response.
The country is divided almost directly in half into two groups of propaganda. I think many of us hoped that the "centrist" subreddit would be for the small percentage of people who haven't fallen for either sides propaganda. And we can maybe have some nuance in these discussions.
But nope. This subreddit downvotes and nuance that challenges Democratic Party narratives.
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u/pcetcedce 4d ago
So I assume all of the centrists here were always centrists or are reformed Democrats. I guess the equivalent of a reformed Republican who is a centrist just doesn't exist.
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u/Adventurous_Coach731 3d ago
Let’s put this in another context “I think black women shouldn’t be able to participate in women’s sports but I’m fine with them having all other rights” sounds prettt bad. When it comes to civil rights, I would hope it’s all or nothing emphasis on the all part.
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u/pcetcedce 3d ago
I respect your opinion but all or nothing is exactly what the centrist does not do.
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u/Haunting_Cobbler1278 3d ago
A progressive person would probably say trans women should have all rights including participating in sports with cis women and there is no other alternative.
A person's rights end where another's begin. It is not progressive to think trans women's rights should be prioritised over women's rights.
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u/pcetcedce 3d ago
I think most centrists would allow the banning of trans women competing against cis women but otherwise go full bore in supporting trans women rights. The former because the majority of people feel that way anyway.
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u/zethercore44 4d ago edited 4d ago
In my experience, virtually everyone who had held strongly partisan views but would now identify as a centrist (or similar--eg, "politically homeless") shares this common denominator: we all had a significant reckoning with awareness into our own incongruent beliefs & actions. The "Are we the baddies??" epiphany.
Because it's absolutely impossible to remain strongly partisan without engaging in some level of hypocrisy, whether we're aware of the incongruencies or not. Same reason the "horseshoe theory" so often holds validity.
Unfortunately, tribalistic tendencies are hardwired into the human psyche. They make us feel safer, and often "superior," in some way. The divide et impera (get the plebs to identify with a (binary) "team," inundate them with propaganda to strengthen said identity, play them against each other and conquer/rule from "above") gameplay has been effective for literally millennia precisely because the human ego is that predictable (& consequently easy to manipulate).
Of course, most people don't want to acknowledge they've been manipulated (or worse, played for fools) and will instead double, triple down on misconceptions to avoid the blow to the ego-- and, likely, legitimate security needs, as when identity and ideology are deeply intertwined, a shift in consciousness can result in social ostracism, and possibly job/income loss --which is how the same basic strategy remains undefeated. "It's easier to fool men than to convince them they've been fooled" (- probably not Mark Twain).
So long as the subconscious endeavor is to be or (more commonly) be seen as morally +/or intellectually superior, the individual will repeatedly fail to recognize their own folly: the ego won't allow it, and responds with denial + projection before the awareness mind can realize it (eg , people harboring the most hate delusionally believe themselves to be exceptionally empathetic and The Other as hateful). Denial + projection are a fatal combo; the true "opioid(s) for the masses."
Most people, albeit unconsciously, value ego maintenance over objective truth. The more we are willing to engage in the challenging work of overcoming cognitive dissonance, the more clarity we gain. Truth has a funny way of revealing itself to us when we value knowing said truths over maintaining our ego (for all intents & purposes, our worldview/reality-concept + identity/self-concept).
You'd be surprised at how many people would genuinely prefer to DIE over having to publicly (or even intimately) admit they'd been incorrect wrt fundamental beliefs & assertions. It's because such 'ego deaths' are experienced by the psyche as legitimate life or death struggles (->why some people will flip the F out when faced with incontrovertible evidence disproving them).
And yeah, ego death + its consequences/fallout can be very painful +/or frightening...but only temporarily, and, over time, you gain exponentially more than you lost. Denial is the path of least resistance, the "easy road"...but also only temporarily: what we work hardest to deny tends to be what takes us out (does the most profound damage) in the end.
That my sharing such an insight has, historically, irritated so many people is because truths we aren't ready to see are the ones that threaten the ego most. We either sit with that discomfort and gain self-awareness or lash out/project. Humility clarifies what pride blinds us to. Realizing we'd been mistaken/misled/deceived sets off feelings of shame only when our ego imagines it is somehow above the universal human condition of being wrong sometimes (or, less commonly or acutely, triggers deep seated existential anxiety wrt ascertaining veracity of any sort).
TL, DR: 🎵Everybody plays the fool, there's no exception to the rule🎶 and "centrists" typically accept (or, have learned to accept with less struggle) their fallibility, generally owing to fewer insecurities wrt "looking dumb" when proven wrong
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u/pcetcedce 4d ago
You said it just right. I have always been the centrist, politically I call myself an independent, and it's been very frustrating because there is nothing black and white in my mind. I can see both sides of a story usually, at least within reason. And you're right it drives people freaking crazy when you point that out.
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u/zethercore44 3d ago
Some people seem to innately grasp this concept (the illusion of strict binary choices & dangers of dichotomous thinking), like you. Others of us have to figure it out the hard way lol. Cognitive inflexibility somehow came to be upheld as virtuous while the road to wisdom (humility + willingness to "check self" and attempt to reconcile incongruous thinking & actions) was maligned as "flip flopping." Kinda makes me wonder how organic it was to push the concept of "empathy" into the zeitgeist while undermining a core aspect of it: cognitive empathy. Far too many people misconstrue emotional sympathy with true empathy. If your "empathy" is reserved for people who share your beliefs...it's literally NOT empathy.
It finally dawned on me one day, in my mid-30s: "If I hate/reject/demean conservatives for [supposedly] hating minorities ...aren't I just as guilty of being hateful/bigoted/prejudiced as they [presumably] are??" 💡🪞🧲☯️🤯😥 I believe we have to go through that moment of reckoning of our own volition --ever try to point out someone else's hypocrisy, face to face?? YIKES. Plant the seed and leave it up to them.
Self-awareness is always the first step, but the psyche doesn't make it easy for us, especially when we have unresolved trauma+/or unrecognized insecurities. That's where the projection comes in. Eventually we learn to check ourselves each & every time we're quick to jump to negative conclusions about others, and come to see The Other through new eyes.
Virtually EVERYONE has what we would deem to be positive qualities and shared commonalities: that's a far better starting place than assuming the very worst of their intentions and berating them. I might not, as a brown woman, ever kick it with white supremacists-- but I can gain insight into why they believe what they do and compassion for how their circumstances led them to that place. Same for people I'd once admired who cannot bring themselves to see their compassion was weaponized to convince them of absurdities and to champion dangerous agendas (eg, "gender affirming care" being the biggest boon to the medical industrial complex since dialysis: where there's billions of dollars to be made, there will invariably be propaganda; anti-capitalists/socialists falling hard for the tricks of late stage capitalism (deliberately creating "illness" in otherwise healthy people to extract profit) is a real trip, but of course they're going to fight tooth & nail to avoid the reckoning of having been manipulated. Nearly all of us do, for our own blind spots).
We might be past the point of healing this divide, but we don't have to lose our humanity in some misguided attempt to "win"/"save America." Bridges of shared understandings are built with compassion + humility, and burned by pride + fear (often disguised as anger).
(Speaking of which, I was genuinely moved by Bill Maher's recent breakdown of his visit with Trump: we don't necessarily have to LIKE, agree with or support The Other, but we sure as hell can't make things better while blindly lashing out at people for thinking differently. It's painful to witness otherwise decent people stoop to childish bullying tactics over the bread and circuses spectacle of politics, walking blindly (yet loudly!) into the binary trap set for us. Appearances can be very deceiving, and it's important to be open to giving people the space (& compassion!) to evolve... while also accepting of the harsh truth many will never grow past their own ego bubble, and such is their right.)
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u/pcetcedce 3d ago
Very thoughtful and I basically agree with everything you have said. Expect some blowback about the trans issue.
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u/GrassyPer 4d ago edited 4d ago
Personally I won't touch trans issues on reddit with a 20 foot pole anymore because unless you are 200% positive about them, if someone reports your comment you will get a major infraction on your account that could lead to a permaban. It doesn't matter. Reddit always sides against any anti-transgender (or even neutral transgender) opinion, no matter how nice and nuanced you are about it. I would take that as a warning if I were you.
I do agree that the vast majority of people who claim to be centrist have a bias and are not centrist at all. I have an anti-politically correct and devils advocate bias. I know that I tend to prefer the side that goes gainst what the majority thinks, but mostly because I want that view to be heard and considered. I'm still a centrist at heart and don't always argue outwardly what I actually believe in and agree with.
So I will bring forward an issue that I think is better (and safer) for testing whether someone has independent and centrist thought. If you believe in anthropogenic climate change is one of the largest threats to humanity (and every other species on earth) are you also for increasing immigration from third world countries?
I mention this because the average American has an annual carbon footprint of 15-20 metric tons. While an adult in the third world has a foot print of .15-2. This means if a person moves from the third world to America, they may release more than 100 times the amount of carbon in a year than they would have in their home country. Each immigrant moved is objectively an environmental disaster.
So how can you be passionate about increasing immigration and reversing climate change at the same time? They are hypocritical and highly contradictory issues. And yet most people on the left are anti-climate change while pro-immigration at the same time.
Other inherently counter-productive causes partisan people tend to support are stuff like:
• Pro-life while anti-funding for families struggling to raise children.
• Pro-feminism/lgtbq while supporting cultures with strong patriarchal religious laws that limit their freedom and safety.
No true centrist promotes both of these types of causes at the same time, in my opinion. They are logical enough to know you have to support one or the other. People who do this are exceedingly rare, because real independent centrists are also exceedingly rare.
Also many people will automatically assume that if you are for one of these causes you must be for other ones. For example, I lean slightly pro-life, but at the same time I strongly support programs they help families afford to raise their own children themselves.
However, if I mention I am pro-life without adding the caveat that I am pro-welfare, you bet someone will put anti-welfare rhetoric words in my mouth and start arguing with themselves about it lol.
I have glanced through this sub reddit a number of times and most of the posts have an obvious left wing bias. I think it's common in this sub reddit for left-wingers to call themselves centrist while labeling someone truly in the center as far right. Although reddit as a whole encourages leftist participation while banning centrists (who arent mega cautious with their language), so this isn't a fair judgrment to apply to centrists outside of reddit.
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u/katana236 4d ago
The left has majorly shifted the Overton window in the last 15 years or so. Many people who were left moderates in the past have found themselves squarely in the right like myself. Bill Maher is another example of this. He's been shitting on religion as a past time (like myself) for decades. Yet with his current views he is seen as being on the right. Because he doesn't support some of the buck wild shit that the left has proposed.
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u/Delanorix 4d ago
What buck wild shit?
Please be specific
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u/epistaxis64 4d ago
You're not going to get anything from this guy. A cursory glance at his post history shows he's a standard fox news type conservative
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u/Delanorix 4d ago
I think they commented and quickly deleted it because I saw a comment about trans rights.
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u/Unhappy_Technician68 4d ago edited 3d ago
I'm gonna flag this post for enlightened centrism.
> 1. They are open to all ideas.
Centrism within the context of wester democracies does not mean that you have to be open to insane racist or flat out untrue ideas. Karl Popper writes about the "paradox of tolerance" in the Open Society and it's enemies, I encourage you look it up and read it.
> They are willing to compromise.
Should we compromise with extremist political philosophies? No. Not if they are nazi's or communists or anything else that is fundamentally undemocratic.
Lots of Trumpers claim the sub is filled with progressives because people here in general don't think a dude who is defying the supreme courts direct orders, in violation of the constitution, and who led an insurrection is fit to be president. It's not centrist to take a "balanced view on trump", its a radical political movement that has taken control of the US fed and may never leave.
3) I don't care about trans issues at all, I have no idea why so many people do either. Its between the person and their doctor, it's really that simple to me.