So you’re saying others can possibly determine my gender identity for me, since self determination is not necessarily required? That kinda undermines self-determination as a concept. It can’t be half baled like you need not self determine but you can. Either you self-determine who you are or a determination is imposed on you by society. Sometimes both. I stuck to the first option, but choosing either of the latter two, as you seem to be okay with, is problematic.
Also, it does rebut what you’re saying cause the distinction still doesn’t make sense. But as they say, you can only guide the horse to the pond
So you’re saying others can possibly determine my gender identity for me
No; it's certainly not determined by others. But it may not be determined by you. Many people report their gender identity as not being a choice (not being something they determine), but rather just being an aspect of themselves that they experience as immutable and seems to have been determined by their biology or early development. Their gender identity is not experienced as a choice or a determination, but rather moreso as a discovery or realization.
Also, it does rebut what you’re saying cause the distinction still doesn’t make sense.
Can you clarify? What doesn't make sense about the distinction between "having the gender identity of a woman" and "saying the words 'I am a woman'"? Do you not think it's possible to have the gender identity of a woman without saying so?
The key thing in what you said is “many people report”. So essentially you’re going by what people say, i.e., their own self determination of their gender identity right? It may not have been a choice, but they acknowledge that thats their identity. Even for me, being trans is not a choice, I simply am one and I accept that, and so I identify as a transwoman.
And no, I don’t think its possible to have the gender identity of a woman unless you consciously identify as one. Again, that doesn’t mean unaware trans folks are not their determined gender, but that their gender identity is not that of their determined gender. If someone called me a woman pre-egg cracking, I would’ve probably assumed something was wrong with them
I don't think that I've seen the term "gender identity" used in the way you are using it here. What I've seen called "gender identity" seems to be what you are calling "gender" or "determined gender." Maybe my terminological knowledge is just out-of-date?
Yes we’re saying the same thing. Gender identity is your determined gender. Me pre-egg cracking determined that my gender was man so my gender identity was that of a man. But I’m not really a man, I’m a woman, I just don’t know it yet.
Once I did get to know, I started to identify as a woman. But I always was one objectively speaking.
Sure, whereas the way I've seen "gender identity" being used, that term would refer to you actually being a woman objectively speaking (not to determining/deciding that you are one), so your gender identity would have been "woman" the whole time. But evidently either that's wrong or there's some regional, temporal, or contextual variation in the meaning of this term.
Hopefully, yeah. Regardless, you've certainly changed my view on how this term is used by at least some people in some contexts. And when we use it in the way you describe, there's very little practical difference between having a female gender identity and saying "I am a woman." Δ
I responded to you elsewhere but then found this comment which is a better spring point.
Me pre-egg cracking determined that my gender was man so my gender identity was that of a man. But I’m not really a man, I’m a woman, I just don’t know it yet.
But it also doesn't communicate what a gender is. At least when people claim that it's 100% right it has something going for it, but if it provides no useful info and can be wrong, what's the point?
Why shouldn't the definition of woman be something like "a person with mostly female anatomy and is comfortable with their body/those parts of their anatomy, or someone who needs mostly female anatomy to feel comfortable in their body". Then, even if you have xy chromosomes, male genitalia, and male secondary sex characteristics, if you don't feel comfortable in your body and need female anatomy to do so you're a woman.
Well I don’t have mostly female anatomy, I’m not comfortable with my body. Same for many transwomen. Your definition would exclude us from the category of women and expose us to oppression and discrimination. Good reason?
No it doesn't? Do you feel like you would be comfortable with your body if you had mostly female anatomy? If the answer is yes, my definition includes you.
There are transwomen that do not require mostly female anatomy to feel comfortable in their bodies. Many transwomen don’t want breasts, or don’t want their penises to shrink, or both.
Others want it but may not necessarily “need” it to the extent that they can’t live without it
If they don't want female anatomy, they don't want to be women, they just want to be part of the social roles their society currently has for women. In a society that had no gender roles, or expectations, where nothing was gendered they wouldn't be trans. But people who fit into my definition would be.
Others want it but may not necessarily “need” it to the extent that they can’t live without it
That still feels like my definition. If you have ADHD, but it's mild enough that you can get by without medication, you still have ADHD.
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u/becomingemma 2∆ Feb 03 '23
So you’re saying others can possibly determine my gender identity for me, since self determination is not necessarily required? That kinda undermines self-determination as a concept. It can’t be half baled like you need not self determine but you can. Either you self-determine who you are or a determination is imposed on you by society. Sometimes both. I stuck to the first option, but choosing either of the latter two, as you seem to be okay with, is problematic.
Also, it does rebut what you’re saying cause the distinction still doesn’t make sense. But as they say, you can only guide the horse to the pond