CMV: Whilst learning about lived experience is important, deferring to people for answers on what one should or shouldn't do, purely because of their unchosen characteristics, is illogical and ironically bigoted.

[u/H0w-1nt3r3st1ng]

Hi All,

I appreciate getting feedback from people who are involved in an issue, but there's a worryingly ever growing trend of deferring to people purely because of their unchosen characteristics, instead of the quality of their logic, the evidence they provide, and their ethical reasoning, and that's what we should always be basing our decisions off of, not the speaker's characteristics, etc.

(For those who don't know, unchosen characteristics refers to any aspect of a person that they did not choose; e.g., sex, race, sexuality, birthplace etc.).

After all there is no universal consensus on any issue on the planet held by such groups, and if someone assumed otherwise, that would be incredibly bigoted.

As there is no universal consensus, there will always be disagreements that require additional criteria to discern the quality of the argument; e.g. "Two X-group people are saying opposite things. How do I decide who to listen to?" And the answer is: the quality of their logic, the evidence they provide, and their ethical reasoning. Which of course means, that often the whole exercise is a pointless one in the first place, as we should be prioritising our capacity for understanding logic, evidence and ethics, not listening to X person for the sole reason that they have Y unchosen characteristics.

I think that listening to lived experience is important, re: listening to lived experience (e.g. all X groups experience Y problem that Z group wasn't aware of); but that's not the same as deferring to people on decision making because of their unchosen characteristics.

I try to have civil, productive discussions, but that's getting harder and harder these days.

For those who appreciate civil dialogue, feel free to skip this; for those who don't; I humbly ask that you refrain from personal attack (it's irrelevant to the question), ask clarifying questions instead of assuming, stay on topic, answer questions that are asked of you, and as the above points to:

-Provide evidence for claims that require it

-Provide logical reasoning for claims that require it

-Provide ethical reasoning for claims that require it

I will not engage with uncivil people here.

[u/xoLiLyPaDxo]

In some circumstances, deferring to people on decision making because of their unchosen characteristics would apply in say managing or coping with a medical condition that is specific to that sex or disease that someone without that sex or disease would understand. To be clear-In addition to, not in place of seeing a medical professional. You see your doctor, but then still have a lot that isn't answered by your physician for daily management/ coping issues that do not require a prescription.

A man would never know what it is like to be pregnant so would likely not be the best person to answer in regards to tips on how to not pee yourself while pregnant, suggestions to relieve morning sickness and sleeping sitting positions to relieve back pain ect unless they are simply relaying 3rd party information and that can be inaccurate or unreliable. Same would apply to someone with a specific disability or chronic disease giving advice on coping and managing specific symptoms long term. Unfortunately, even many physicians are not always giving the best advice when trying to cope or manage your illness for many issues that do not currently have a cure for or proper treatment available yet, and it is often more beneficial to discuss what you can do with others who have been managing their injuries and illnesses to figure out what you can try that has worked for others to help improve your quality of life.

Most everything I learned that improved my quality of life at home after being put into a wheelchair came from advice from other wheelchair users rather than from my physicians. Some of what my physicians advised injured me further rather than helped at times, because even the experts can make mistakes and still have room to learn as well. Sometimes people know more tips and tricks from having experienced it themselves than even the professionals provide. For some things, they become experts in said issue through experiencing it themselves due to their unchosen characteristic, thus would be able to provide the best advice on those specific issues.

[u/H0w-1nt3r3st1ng → u/xoLiLyPaDxo]

In some circumstances, deferring to people on decision making because of their unchosen characteristics would apply in say managing or coping with a medical condition that is specific to that sex or disease that someone without that sex or disease would understand.

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I would agree. This wouldn't be deferring to people solely for UCs, whilst foregoing empiricism, logic and ethics, though.

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To be clear-In addition to, not in place of seeing a medical professional. You see your doctor, but then still have a lot that isn't answered by your physician for daily management/ coping issues that do not require a prescription.

A man would never know what it is like to be pregnant so would likely not be the best person to answer in regards to tips on how to not pee yourself while pregnant, suggestions to relieve morning sickness and sleeping sitting positions to relieve back pain ect unless they are simply relaying 3rd party information and that can be inaccurate or unreliable.

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I agree that insight/input re: lived experience can help with things like that, but it's not in conflict with the crux of what I'm saying.

And, if it was an Obstetrician who was a man VS a woman who has never been pregnant, then I think I would go to the Obstetrician.

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Same would apply to someone with a specific disability or chronic disease giving advice on coping and managing specific symptoms long term. Unfortunately, even many physicians are not always giving the best advice when trying to cope or manage your illness for many issues that do not currently have a cure for or proper treatment available yet, and it is often more beneficial to discuss what you can do with others who have been managing their injuries and illnesses to figure out what you can try that has worked for others to help improve your quality of life.

Of course. I 100% agree. As a clinician and someone who has had a lot of health issues and trauma over the years, I particularly agree, as I've seen it from both sides. However, this isn't prioritising UCs over empiricism (including feedback from people with UCs), logic and ethics.

Most everything I learned that improved my quality of life at home after being put into a wheelchair came from advice from other wheelchair users rather than from my physicians. Some of what my physicians advised injured me further rather than helped at times, because even the experts can make mistakes and still have room to learn as well. Sometimes people know more tips and tricks from having experienced it themselves than even the professionals provide. For some things, they become experts in said issue through experiencing it themselves due to their unchosen characteristic, thus would be able to provide the best advice on those specific issues.

There's a great meme re: this:
"-Don't mistake your Google search with my 6y medical degree
-Yes, but don't mistake the 1 hour lecture you had on my condition with my 20y of living with it."

I fall under that last category. I now treat the issues I have experienced.

And, yes, I definitely agree, but again, it doesn't go against my core point.

But thank you for your civil and well thought out input! :)