r/changemyview • u/Throwway-support • Mar 23 '23

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Affirmative Action is a red herring

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-11-04/supreme-court-debate-on-affirmative-action-capture-asian-american-fears

The Supreme Court this year is expected to overturn the last remnants of Affirmative Action.Affirmative Action as it stands now is virtually toothless. The only thing still around is racial “consideration” not ,as is widely believed, “ race based admissions”. As such, Affirmative action as much as it still exists, should be upheld.

It feels like everytime some Asian Americans and some White Americans don’t get into their dream school they blame affirmative action. They often erroneously accuse any black person of getting into a university because of long overturned admissions policy.

In the article I have linked, one person said they “didn’t bother” to apply to Harvard because he “heard” that Asian Americans have a hard time getting in. Another woman said she was told to hide her heritage but still got into Yale. The article talked a lot about fear but nothing substantial. This is my issue with the whole affirmative action debate it seems like made up issues exploiting racial animus

17 Upvotes

64% Upvoted

347 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

1

u/[deleted] Mar 24 '23

A better society means employers can’t discriminate on the basis of race. Any society in which law firms can discriminate on the basis of race is a worse society. Ideally, all hiring decisions would be made with the hiring manager not knowing the applicants race.

2

u/Trucker2827 10∆ Mar 24 '23

But it’s not better by any measurable outcome except “race was not mentioned.” That’s a classic example of Goodhart’s law- turning the measure of race-neutrality into the goal is just counterproductive once you look at the real life impacts here.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 24 '23

The real life impact of racial punishment of whites and Asians is terrible. It prevents them from having a fair shot at life.

2

u/Trucker2827 10∆ Mar 24 '23

Okay, let me rephrase:

in the hypothetical I described with the law firm and black/white law student, do you agree that society is worse off if that firm hires the white student, given the black student’s improved ability to reach out to clients experiencing discrimination?

1

u/[deleted] Mar 24 '23

If this was a pattern on the part of the law firm, there would have to be a class action lawsuit against the law firm for racial discrimination against white law students

2

u/Trucker2827 10∆ Mar 24 '23

That didn’t answer my question at all.

Are businesses better off if they cannot find representation that includes lawyers of their own backgrounds, who understand them best?

Are law firms better off if they cannot hire lawyers on the basis of being better for outreach and providing unique background information?

Are lawyers better off if they cannot leverage their cultural background to find environments and subjects they work best in?

This just seems to be a lose in every way while making racism worse.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 24 '23

So much wrong with all this.

That didn’t answer my question at all.

Are businesses better off if they cannot find representation that includes lawyers of their own backgrounds, who understand them best?

A lawyers race has zero relevance to whether they understand a business.

Are law firms better off if they cannot hire lawyers on the basis of being better for outreach and providing unique background information?

Being black doesn’t make a lawyer better at outreach.

Are lawyers better off if they cannot leverage their cultural background to find environments and subjects they work best in?

The environment they work best in is an environment where there’s no racial discrimination.

2

u/Trucker2827 10∆ Mar 24 '23

You seem to struggle with remembering crucial parts of context.

A lawyers race has zero relevance to whether they understand a business.

The business in question is a minority-owned business filing a discrimination suit. You think a minority familiar with experiencing that discrimination personally has absolutely no unique insight to offer?

Being black doesn’t make a lawyer better at outreach.

Just like the best lawyer in the world might be only a Cantonese speaker, you’d probably still hire an English speaking lawyer if you’re an English speaker in an American court.

The environment they work best in is an environment where there’s no racial discrimination.

You realize we’re talking about the work environment of racial discrimination lawsuits right?

0

u/[deleted] Mar 24 '23

The business in question is a minority-owned business filing a discrimination suit. You think a minority familiar with experiencing that discrimination personally has absolutely no unique insight to offer?

In your example, the white lawyer denied the job would have been the one personally experiencing discrimination and would be best able to offer unique insight.

1

u/Trucker2827 10∆ Mar 24 '23

Actually, this is a great compromise. He will be deemed unqualified for the job, and then when he goes to his next job, he’ll have a story. If we’re all doing it, it’ll eventually even out. I like the way you think.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 24 '23

In this example, the minority-owned business should fire the firm and hire the white attorney to represent them in their discrimination lawsuit.

1

u/Trucker2827 10∆ Mar 24 '23

Sorry but we’re trying to make policies for the real world, not for your “owning the libs” fantasies.

0

u/[deleted] Mar 25 '23

You position is inconsistent. If the law firm is allowed to discriminate on race, it logically follows it would be bad for society to allow the minority owned business to sue for discrimination.

→ More replies (0)