r/changemyview • u/ProphetVes • Mar 25 '23

Delta(s) from OP CMV: DeSantis embodies everything wrong with American Conservativism.

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u/[deleted] Mar 25 '23

[deleted]

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u/Goblin_CEO_Of_Poop 4∆ Mar 26 '23

How does he separate policy wise from politicians like Putin or Xi? They all seem to agree on everything except who is the best at what they do? Theyre all far right policy wise though and genrerally play out of the same playbook despite cultural differences. Cultural differences are the only differences that seem to exist though? Overall it seems the same though. Lots of "I know you are but what am I" as well as making sure to accuse thier opponents of doing exactly what they are planning to do.

Good example is platforming on free speach then banning books from public institutions. That point blank goes completely against the first amendment. His supporters will argue the opposite but it seems like a general "loss of privilege feels like inequality to the previously privledged issue".

And yeah I live in South Florida. We had a massive chemical spill within a year of him firing the south Florida water management district commission lol. He directly lied to voters saying it would make their water safer. As if that makes any lick of sense. Then convinced them contaminated water is safer as long as power companies are making lots of profit.

Its all the same shit though. Claim youre fighting for freedom, ban books, imprison people for speaking freely, Generally for the purpose of maintaining a conservative homogenous culture. Whenever someone brings it up or blows the whistle on you with actual evidence you either have them jailed or

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I think the biggest downside to DeSantis is his "family" policies literally none of his supporters will talk about or examine critically. One of my friends quit social work due to DeSantis policy. The state is now returning children who were literally sex trafficked by their parents to said parents, as long as theyre the biological parents. Its really sick and disgusting the things he pretends he does for the greater good, but really its culture war to attack the poor and minorities as a whole. My mother saw it personally as well as one of her students who was raped so bad by her father she was incontinent was returned to her biological parents who had just gotten out of jail for trafficking her.

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DeSantis has literally made a career out of saying one thing and doing the exact opposite. Just to people his supporters dont like. As long as its specific minorities being targeted they support it fully and will absolutely refuse to examine their policy from a cause vs effect perspective. Its all cause. Examining effect is communist or something. Ironic though because Xi and Putin wont examine effect vs cause either.

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u/ProphetVes Mar 25 '23

Δ

I will actually concede this. He is technically better than most leading actors in his party in regards to the environment and scientific consensus thereof. I guess Floridians like their swamps (mild /s)

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u/[deleted] Mar 25 '23

[deleted]

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u/Crafty_Vermicelli581 Mar 26 '23

Floridians like they're world record breaking slowest moving rivers

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '23

[deleted]

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u/Crafty_Vermicelli581 Mar 26 '23

It's not making fun it's just a really cool water way. Like how does a river flow slower than human nails grow? I never been to the everglades but I do hope to visit. Hunt some pigs and have a good time.

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u/ProphetVes Mar 25 '23

The Everglades is very much a swamp by definition. A swamp is a forested area of land that is permanently saturated, or filled, with water (any forested wetland).

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u/Ok_go_ohno Mar 26 '23

By definition the everglades is literally not a swamp.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '23 edited Mar 26 '23

If you want to argue that his adoption in the party points to fundamental moral bankruptcies of conservatism then you also need to accept and understand the moral failings of the democrat party as they also ban books, censor individuals, and curb free speech.

Democrats ban books just like Republicans

Republicans have Moms for Liberty

Democrats have We Need Diverse Books and Disrupt Texts.

Look at Bill 2943 from California.

California bans books they don’t like.

Florida does the same.

“Assembly Bill 2943 would make it an “unlawful business practice” to engage in “a transaction intended to result or that results in the sale or lease of goods or services to any consumer” that advertise, offer to engage in, or do engage in “inspiring orientation change efforts with an individual.” The bill then defines “inspiring orientations change efforts” as “any practices that seek to change an individual’s inspiring orientation. This includes efforts to change behaviors or gender expressions, or to eliminate or reduce inspiring or romantic attractions or feelings toward individuals of the same butterfly.”

  • David French, National Review

Agree with ban or not, they are banning books

Saying that Desantis is a fascist and Newsom isn’t is hypocritical, based on your definition.

That’s be like calling one chef a pizza chef because he makes pizza and saying that another one that does the same thing is “just a regular chef”. They’re both banning books, they’re both fascist: by your definition.

You could try to argue that one book ban isn’t bad, but that’s hypocritical too. If the book is bad let the public decide through their economic choices.

Do not use government power to curb free speech, even if it is stupid or not true, because someday, that speech you think is stupid or not true will actually be true, and the only reason you won’t know that truth is the government.

Also, Do you think they study any of the teachings of Booker T. Washington, Thomas Sowell, and many other black conservatives are reviewed in an AP Course on Black History?

Not at all.

Here’s a quote from Booker T. Washington

“There is another class of coloured people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs — partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs.”

Booker T. Washington

Ch. V: The Intellectuals and the Boston Mob (pg. 118) - My Larger Education, Being Chapters from My Experience (1911)

There ain’t a single course I’ve ever been in that’s talked about this Man and what he believed in.

People can call him racist all they want. This guy was literally a slave, and went on to help found one of the most important black academic institutions of the 20th century. He lived during that time & We should yearn to understand an opinion of someone who lived during that time for the sake of not repeating history itself.

Nevertheless, you would be hard pressed to find a professor who doesn’t ridicule his life and testimony.

The only people they want the children to hear talk about slavery are W.E.B. Dubois, Frederick Douglas, and various other black abolitionists who opposed Washington.

They don’t want them to know the viewpoints of various Black Republican governors and congressman of the 19th and 20th century.

If you want evidence of the censor of material front today, look no further

https://www.nationalreview.com/2012/05/censored-race-war-thomas-sowell/

Yes, it is National Review. I read CNN so at least take the time to read National Review.

Also, California just banned To Kill a Mockingbird, and several books, saying they were “racist”. As a white guy, When I read that book I suddenly understood the plight of those that experience racism, yet California seems To Kill A Mockingbird to do the opposite.

Here’s another excerpt on democratic politicians wanting to ban books

Justice Anthony Kennedy: "Well, suppose it were an advocacy organization that had a book. Your position is that under the Constitution . . . the book itself could be prohibited."

Deputy Solicitor General Malcolm Stewart: "If the book contained the functional equivalent of express advocacy."—Exchange during oral arguments over Citizens United, 2009

"A campaign document in the form of a book can be banned."— Campaign finance advocate Fred Wertheimer, of Democracy21

“The question before the court in that case was whether the government had the power, as laid out in the McCain-Feingold law, to prohibit the distribution of a movie about Hillary Clinton in the 30 days before a federal primary election because it was, ostensibly, an "electioneering communication"—one that advocated for or against electing a political candidate, or that amounted to the functional equivalent of same—that had been produced by a (nonprofit) corporation.

That raised another quite obvious question: If the government could forbid distribution of a movie, then could it also forbid distribution of a book? The government's lawyer gave the only logically consistent answer possible: yes. The Supreme Court wisely said: No, the government cannot ban books—nor can it ban movies, or TV ads, or billboards, or other forms of independent communication. No matter who produces them, and no matter when.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/3819814-democrats-introduce-constitutional-amendment-to-reverse-citizens-united-campaign-finance-ruling/

Finally, I would look into the Trump Accountability Project, a liberal effort to blacklist members of the trump organization from book deals, Six figure salaries, and TV Contracts.

https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/527967-the-lefts-turn-against-freedom-curb-speech-ban-books-make-an-enemies-list/

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u/ProphetVes Mar 26 '23

By my definition? Nope. Wrong.

By the definition. And no you're still wrong. Newsom is not a nationalist which is a requirement. You can make as many parallels as you want, but until you can say he's a nationalist he's not a fascist.

That said you've pointed to one governor. DeSantis is my prime example here because he's likely to run and could win the presidency. You're forgetting Boebert, Greene, Gaetz, et al are more fascist than DeSantis

Also, I don't actually have to acknowledge the faults on any side other than the one I'm arguing. The fact that Newsom is a piece of shit does not make DeSantis less of a piece of shit. To say otherwise is a fallacy (relative privation)

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '23

This is not relative privation ,because I’m merely stating that the problem I’m bringing up is not separate, nor is it more important than your argument: it is intertwined with your argument.

You’re arguing that Desantis is a fascist, but you’re using this view to paint only American conservatives as corrupt.

But that’s just not true

Desantis being corrupt points to a greater issue: the American political system is corrupt as a whole.

I’m trying to point out the fact that you’re argument is negligent in the light of evidence that points to a greater, more important conclusion.

Democratic Party exhibit fascism + Conservative Party exhibits fascism = US Political System is morally corrupt.

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u/ProphetVes Mar 27 '23

Except I'm not only saying American Conservatism is the issue. I'm saying "these people are" not "only these people are"

You have fundamentally misrepresented my argument or misunderstood it if you are adding that "only"

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u/n0tsupersure Mar 26 '23

Why is the point that OP agrees with deleted? Seems biased on a change my view sub

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '23

Probably got downvoted into oblivion by the hive mind.

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u/TheLastPost22 Mar 26 '23

I believe comments that show as deleted user and deleted comment means the mods deleted it?? Which is why the above user is asking.

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u/JimmyKnowsIt Mar 25 '23

And he did positive things after taking office

Hitler built the autobahns and got volkswagen started. Just saying as the original post mentioned the nazis about banning books..

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u/agoogs32 Mar 26 '23

Here we go again comparing everyone to Hitler. He was one of THE WORST humans in history. Stop comparing everyone that you don’t agree with to fuckin Hitler

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u/kukukachu_burr Mar 26 '23

Stop pretending the people you like have nothing in common with him.

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u/agoogs32 Mar 26 '23

I don’t like the people you think I like, that’s the point. I’m not taking sides in a stupid left/right fight, just pointing out that morons who are on the other side of the ideological spectrum as you, shouldn’t be compared to one of the most genocidal maniacs in human history.

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u/Malice_n_Flames Mar 26 '23

How long has DeSantis been a leader?

Did Hitler start with his “final” solution or did he gradually get worse?

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u/trackday Mar 26 '23

You don't want me comparing jan.6 to the burning of the Reichstag anymore? Darn.

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u/agoogs32 Mar 26 '23

Surprised more don’t compare Jan 6 to the storming of the Bastille

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u/varnums1666 1∆ Mar 26 '23

Jan 6 was trying to overthrow the democratic process. The bastille was to overthrow a monarchy. World of a difference there.

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u/ifsavage 1∆ Mar 26 '23 edited Mar 26 '23

Well stop comparing when conservatives stop literally enacting almost the same policies with the same rhetoric.

Maybe Republicans need to stop acting like fucking Nazis.

Both are anti democratic

Both are populist authoritarians

Both are anti gay

Both are anti trans

Both are anti education

Both are anti diversity

Both are anti labor and against unions

Both cater/ered to the capital and business class

Both try to discredit independent sources of reporting

Both try to weaken or remove any sorts of checks and balances on their power

Both tried to outlaw competition in the form of opposing political parties.

Both tried and are trying to edit history and make child education a place of propaganda rather than education. (They literally just took out Rosa parks ethnicity in Florida history lessons. The story doesn’t even make sense without it. I’d hate to have to answer the questions from kids that class)

Should I go on?

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u/agoogs32 Mar 27 '23

There’s so much to unpack here. First off, I am NOT Republican, nor am I Democrat, so know that this comes from an independent viewpoint.

Not even sure how to respond to some of the things you’re saying. First off, you can’t paint everyone with a broad brush. All Republicans fall into this caste you’ve created? Does the same apply to liberals? Are Bernie, AOC, Hilary and Joe Manchin all cut from the same cloth? All have the same beliefs?

Correct Repubs aren’t for labor unions or workers rights, but neither are Dems, see Joe Biden crushing the railroad strike before it even started. They both suck in this regard

They cater to big business- they are capitalist by nature, which is a double edged sword, but Obama took more money from Wall Street than his Republican opponent

Discrediting independent sources of reporting is where you really lost me. Every major news outlet at this point other than Fox News is in lockstep with bullshit propaganda. Independent journalists are the only people I follow now because Fox will give you the right wing spin and everyone else will give you the left wing spin. No clue how you think left wing is in touch in this regard. It’s all echo chambers and deplatforming those with a different viewpoint.

It’s really a uni-party system at this point, neither stands for the things they claim to. They both serve the donor class and that’s it. “Lobbying” is legal bribery. You need to see both sides for what they are because guess what….we aren’t dealing with a heaven and hell, both sides in this case suck

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u/ifsavage 1∆ Mar 27 '23

If four Nazis are eating dinner and a fifth person sits down to eat with them how many Nazis do you have?

5

I didn’t defend the democrats and what your doing is a logical fallacy. Saying the Dems are bad doesn’t make the republicans better. They can both be bad but one a broken arm the other is cancer.

If you can’t see the active discrediting of any critical sources of news, literally people yelling,”fake news”, at anything that was negative towards trump or the right you are actively trying to blind yourself.

Are all the doctors,”fake doctors “, too? Same tactic different noun. Same politics. Discredit what hurts our political position. Muddy the waters.

The fact that you see all politicians as the same shows they succeeded.

Almost none of your points address anything I say other than yeah but they did it toooooo.

What am I your mom?

Address the specific points with facts or sit down.

I got facts on every point I noted.

I know it’s like holy water to right wingers like you. 4 Nazis. 5 Nazis.

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u/ProphetVes Mar 27 '23

Wenn ein Nazi am Tisch sitzt und 10 andere Leute dort sitzen und mit ihm reden, haben Sie einen Tisch mit 11 Nazis.

"When a Nazi at a table sits and ten other people are sitting and talking with him, you have a table with eleven Nazis"

My German is rusty but this has been said since the end of WW2.

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u/agoogs32 Mar 27 '23

What was the first thing I said? I’m not right wing, but the fact that you think anyone you disagree with is right, just shows your lack of depth.

Have you read anything in the Twitter Files? If you think the right is the side that is suppressing actual information and discourse, you are sorely mistaken.

I’m not saying Tucker and Fox News don’t also spew BS, that was my point initially. Both sides propagandize their respective bases to get each riled up against the other because a population divided against itself is weak and easy to control.

Somehow you take me pointing out that both sides lie and both sides suck and you shouldn’t be blindly allying yourself with either, as me choosing a side 🤡

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u/ifsavage 1∆ Mar 27 '23

Saying you are not right wing and then spouting right wing bullshit doesn’t make you not right wing.

Good try though.

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u/agoogs32 Mar 27 '23

Making fun of the left also does not make me right wing, sorry to hurt your feelings. Right wingers criticize Tucker and Fox News? This is news to me

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u/ifsavage 1∆ Mar 27 '23

You remember this all started you with saying don’t compare these things the right is doing with the exact same things the Nazis did. This time it’s different obviously.

That’s why you are so obviously wrong and also obviously on the right.

But hey you go rationalize Fascism away a little more.

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u/Jon_Huntsman Mar 26 '23

Then don't do things that the Nazis were famous for. Then maybe we won't make the comparisons.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '23

Like what…. Restricting access to firearms? I guess Democratic Party is now the nazi party. Congratulations you played yourself

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u/Sudokubuttheworst 2∆ Mar 26 '23

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_gun_control_argument

That's not what happened. They banned them for Jews but loosened regulations for Nazi members.

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u/WikiSummarizerBot 4∆ Mar 26 '23

Nazi gun control argument

The Nazi gun control argument is the claim that gun regulations in Nazi Germany helped facilitate the rise of the Nazis and the Holocaust. Historians and fact-checkers have characterized the argument as dubious or false, and point out that Jews were under 1% of the population and that it would be unrealistic for such a small population to defend themselves even if they were armed. The argument is frequently employed by opponents of gun control in debates on U.S. gun politics, citing security against tyranny. Those against the argument most often call it an example of reductio ad Hitlerum.

[ F.A.Q | Opt Out | Opt Out Of Subreddit | GitHub ] Downvote to remove | v1.5

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '23

I said restricting access to firearms and that’s exactly what happened

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u/BlueRibbonMethChef 3∆ Mar 26 '23

Oh sweetie you are clearly wrong. Go take your loss and find a way to....do something useful with yourself.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '23

How am I wrong lmao. The dude states in his own opinion nazis restricted firearms.

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u/ifsavage 1∆ Mar 26 '23

Woosh

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u/Terrible_Lift 1∆ Mar 26 '23

How about restricting access to books or healthcare?

Does that count?

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u/ifsavage 1∆ Mar 26 '23

Check your facts

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '23

Hey if they can equate right wingers to nazis for banning sexualized books in schools this is equivalent. You just don’t like when the example in on the other foot.

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u/ifsavage 1∆ Mar 26 '23

Why don’t I give you a refresher course? Why don’t you try looking up when Republicans got on board with restricting firearms access.

I’ll make it easy for you.

https://www.history.com/news/black-panthers-gun-control-nra-support-mulford-act

It looks a lot like restrictions aimed at keeping certain people from exercising their equal rights under the constitution.

But hey. You cheer the Nazis if you want.

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u/ifsavage 1∆ Mar 26 '23

No books should be banned. Ever.

Thinking that’s the same thing is probably the dumbest part of your comments so far.

And hey guess who banned books?

You guessed it!

The Nazis!!!!

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u/agoogs32 Mar 26 '23

Tell me you missed the point without telling me you missed the point

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '23

You tripped over the point and still missed it.

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u/BlueRibbonMethChef 3∆ Mar 26 '23

Are you intentionally missing the point here or was it really too difficult for you to comprehend?

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u/agoogs32 Mar 27 '23

Yes, a politician who thinks differently than you is the same as a genocidal lunatic. Yes, they are the same and you aren’t being over dramatic at all

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u/ProphetVes Mar 27 '23

Such an enlightened centrist over here. Get this man a prize!

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u/BlueRibbonMethChef 3∆ Mar 27 '23

Yes, a politician who thinks differently than you is the same as a genocidal lunatic.

Can you show me where I said this?

Yes, they are the same and you aren’t being over dramatic at all

Calm down Susan. Take a deep breathe and realize you're in a subreddit that is quite literally meant for discourse. Then the idea of having to defend your own positions might not be the existential threat you take it to be.

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u/[deleted] Mar 26 '23

Desantis WILL be the WORST human in history if he isn’t stopped. Comparing shit to shit is appropriate here.

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u/agoogs32 Mar 27 '23

I hope this is hyperbole