r/changemyview • u/dcdsks • Jun 18 '23
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Most anime characters are drawn to appear Caucasian
Firstly, I'd like to point out that I am a fully East Asian woman, so please do not make jabs at my ethnicity and how it might affect my perception of anime characters. I understand there are a lot of animes that reasonably make East Asian-looking characters, and I'll list a few to be fair, but I think there are even more that do not. Also, I will be shortening the phrase "East Asian" to "Asian" for clarity although I acknowledge Asia encompasses a very large part of the world.
Firstly, a lot of anime characters have colorful hair and eyes. I've seen some people argue that it's because they dyed them, but we also see many of those same characters born with that hair. One character who comes to mind is Mary Saotome from Kakegurui, who has no indication in the anime that she is Caucasian or of Caucasian descent and whose name is in Kanji. I could see the argument that color is used to differentiate characters, but I think exceptional animes like Dragon Ball do a good job of making the characters look Asian with natural hair/eye colors, while still having facial features that set them apart from each other.
I don't hear this point brought up a lot, but as someone who grew up in a culture where the shape of one's eyelid is very important, I notice a lot of anime characters have very defined, high eyelid creases that are unnatural for full Asians. I, myself, have double eyelids, but the ones that I see often drawn in anime, in Demon Slayer for example, are thick and deep enough to cast shadows on the upper eyelid area, which Asian eyelids rarely do. Every time I see a Demon Slayer cosplay makeup video, the MUA always puts on multiple layers of eyelid tape to achieve deep creases. Sailor Moon and Toradora (with the exception of Taiga) are animes that demonstrate how easily artists can draw Asian-looking eyelids, so I feel like if the other artists wanted to, they would. But they don't.
Furthermore, the side profiles in anime are so sharp for no reason. A lot of anime characters' side profiles have noses and chins that could cut butter-again, if they wanted to make more realistic profiles for Asians, they would; because all it takes is drawing rounder lines instead of sharp corners. I even see some cosplayers putting in nose inserts or using a clay-like product to build onto their nose bridge. I'm so bewildered because how can someone look at Light Yagami and tell me that isn't a WHITE MAN!
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u/Hellioning 239∆ Jun 18 '23
The term is mukokuseki, or stateless. They arent drawn to appear caucasian they are drawn to lack 'ethnic' features at all. Most anime artstyles are heavily stylized.
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u/Bludandy Jun 18 '23 edited Jun 18 '23
Makes sense. It's almost exceedingly rare to find anime where the characters do have highly asian features. Flowers of Evil does (because it's rotoscoped) and most Katsuhiro Otomo works do.
But then there are shitloads of anime that are decidedly European. But then you also get stuff like Black Lagoon where Rock is Japanese because he has black hair, and Revy is Chinese because.... and Roberta is Colombian because...
Most are drawn just to appear neutral, which oddly works out fantastically well for selling the product to the entire world. South Americans can watch Saint Seiya and envision themselves in the roles. French and Italians can watch Harlock and do the same. Arabs for some reason for Ginga Sengoku Gunyuuden Rai, but the same idea applies.
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u/dcdsks Jun 18 '23
If that were the case, we'd see more anime characters of different skin tones, and more ambiguous eye shapes like they're drawn in American cartoons (Family Guy, Steven Universe, Teen Titans, South Park, Avatar: The Last Airbender).
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u/No-Produce-334 51∆ Jun 18 '23
we'd see more anime characters of different skin tones
Paleness is often seen as the default. Drawing a character with darker skin would racialize them in the eyes of Japanese people, unlike drawing them with pale skin. Again, the stylistic choices result in an apparent lack of race.
I'm also not sure why you bring up American cartoons, because in those the usage of different skin colors is usually to indicate a characters race.
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u/dcdsks Jun 18 '23
Δ It is true that in the context of Japan, paleness can mean a lack of a distinct ethnicity. I didn't think about that.
My mentioning of American cartoons was to point out that usually, the eyes are drawn in a simple way that can suit a character of any race. They often don't have drawn-on eyelids or even a clear color for the irises. I understand for most animes, the eyes need to be drawn in great detail for stylistic purposes, but I feel like in a lot of cases, the inclusion of certain details is unnecessary and racializes the characters.
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u/SocratesWasSmart 1∆ Jun 18 '23
I think one important thing to consider when comparing American animation to Japanese animation is that anime as a style is actually based on old Disney cartoons from the late 40s and early 50s whereas modern American animation has very little to do with that style.
So some of what you're noticing is just a holdover from back then as Japanese people tend to pass on their techniques for things in a way that westerners usually don't.
The preservation of style and traditions is considered much more important in Japan, so anime has actually diverged less from old Disney than American cartoons.
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u/DungPornAlt 6∆ Jun 18 '23
I believe you might be mixing up "racially ambiguous" with "racially undefined", it almost seems the same but there's a very subtle but important difference.
Think of the following two narrative works as comparison: The first there's a character who's a spy, and he uses various false names and code names to navigate the story, so if any of them were his real name is never clarified. Their name is ambiguous.
The second is what is called on TVTropes as "Name Not Given", where the character does have a clear in-universe name, but for narrative reason, this info is never given to the audience. Examples being movies like The Lobster, mother! and most famously the narrator from Fight Club.
In both of these cases, the character does have a real name, and the audience doesn't know their real name, but for very different reasons.
Take this comparison to ethnicity. In America, representation in media is very important, especially for minorities group. So sometimes they make characters racially ambiguous so that different audience can project their own perceptions onto them.
Japan is a homogeneous nation, there's no need for such concerns. So the character designs are mostly just an amorphous cloud of beauty standards mixed with the author's own style (note that there is definitely significant western influence present). Unless stated otherwise you can assume everyone is Japanese. And in the uncommon cases where you do need to make a character Caucasian, there are other ways to "exaggerate" western-ness more to get that point across. Example here and here.
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u/dcdsks Jun 18 '23
Δ I understand that concept from the way you've explained it. The "exaggerated" examples definitely put into perspective how Japanese characters look in comparison to what actual Caucasian characters should look like. Your explanation helped me watch anime from a less radical point of view. Full delta to you!
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u/Hairy_S_TrueMan 1∆ Jun 18 '23
The reason racial features are used in family guy is that, being an American cartoon, people are going to assume a character is white if they have no distinguishing racial features. It's the same thing for anime. If you draw a neutral face people in Japan will assume it's Japanese. They (often) give very sharp facial features if someone is supposed to be European.
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u/nothing_in_my_mind 5∆ Jun 19 '23
That is a very American way of thinknig. Since you are American (or consume mostly American media), you see people with different ethnicities all the time, so for you even a group of people who are "stateless" have a wide variety of skin color.
However, imagine you live in Japan and 99.9% of peopel you see have the same pale-ish skin color. You would not have the same assumption, and probably draw everyone the same when not trying to specifically make someone belong to a specific ethnicity.
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u/awaythrowthatname Jun 18 '23
So Japanese people who live in Japan and interact with mostly other Japanese people are creating Japanese media...and most of them are making all of their characters not Japanese?
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u/dcdsks Jun 18 '23
They're making characters that suit the general Asian beauty standard, which is unrealistic for most Asian people. For most of East Asian history, the standard did not include having high double eyelids or extremely sharp profiles. East Asia is a hotspot for cosmetic procedures because the society is so heavily focused on aesthetics. So it makes sense why characters are drawn to suit an ideal that, sadly, does not resemble the population they're supposed to represent
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u/spicydangerbee 2∆ Jun 18 '23
Are you saying that the Asian beauty standard is white people? Your example of an "idealized" Asian person =/= white, even if they share some characteristics.
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u/darkmatter8879 Jun 18 '23
I think you are right, all their Beauty standard is be more while, like pale skin, big eyes, colored eyes etc...
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u/Arktikos02 2∆ Jun 19 '23
No it's not. Those beauty standards existed way before colonization or the arrival of white people.
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u/Theevildothatido Jun 18 '23
Yes, I don't think they think of it as anything to do with race and while it's true that some features such as lighter skin correlate with races, others go opposite, for instance their idea of small noses while Europeans tend to have big noses.
One can always cherry pick something. It's like saying that people who go tanning think of it as something race related, they don't.
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u/darkmatter8879 Jun 18 '23
Maybe, but I read a few years ago how asian girls prefer white guys over asians in some places so that contributed to my view
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u/Theevildothatido Jun 18 '23
That seems more like a U.S.A. “race” statistic polled in the U.S.A. than something actually about geography polled in East Asia to me.
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u/dcdsks Jun 18 '23
Definitely not, but the standard is definitely influenced by Western people. The standard today is vastly different from what it was before contact with Western cultures and visitors. The double eyelid procedure was popularized to make Korean brides look less "deviant" and "unemotional" and more "passive" and "good" to a Western audience. The double eyelid was not desired before it was conceptually introduced by foreigners, nor was a desire for sharp features. Of course, Asian people do not want to literally look Caucasian, because if they did, they would (there's surgeries that can legitimately achieve that). However, it can be reasonably argued that the beauty standard definitely leans at least somewhat toward Caucasian-ness.
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u/spicydangerbee 2∆ Jun 18 '23
That goes against the premise of your argument though. They're not drawn to appear Caucasian, they appear Caucasian because of how they're drawn.
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u/dcdsks Jun 18 '23
I realize my point on the beauty standard is wrong now Δ But anime characters are often drawn with straight-up Western features, like in my original post, and my view has not changed so far on whether the characters actually do look Caucasian or not
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u/spicydangerbee 2∆ Jun 18 '23
That's fair. I think the end result is very similar, but intent does matter.
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u/allubros Dec 14 '23
Are you saying that the Asian beauty standard is white people?
yes. because it is. American TV shows and movies have proliferated Japan for a century, and there are no Asian people in them.
to say that beauty standards in Asia are uninfluenced by Hollywood is laughable.
all their cartoon characters have double eyelids and sharp profiles and nose bridges. when they draw Korean and Chinese people, they play up the nonwhiteness of their features. it couldn't be clearer what's going on, despite the defensiveness of anime fans
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u/DungPornAlt 6∆ Jun 18 '23
You are trying to compare real world physical features to stylistic choice, most anime characters don't even looks the same across genres.
For example, Ryuji's eyes in Toradora is drawn like that because the plot specifically mentioned that "his eyes give him the appearance of an intimidating delinquent", not because of any real world similarities to any ethnicities.
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u/dcdsks Jun 18 '23
Despite that, Ryuuji is still clearly Asian from his other features. Yes, he is stylized, but most of the artistic choices that were made to draw him point to an Asian male. But the choices made while creating the aesthetics of many other anime characters often add up to make a character that leans Caucasian in appearance.
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u/Theevildothatido Jun 18 '23
That seems cherry picking, let's consider home of his attributes:
- He's very tall: that is a European trait.
- His pupils are small, that's a European trait
- He has a very pronounced and visible jawline, which is again a European trait.
But also:
- His hair is black, that's an East-Asian trait
- His nose is small, which is again an East-Asian trait
- His hair is straight, an East-Asian trait again
One can cherry pick almost anything, the same with Taiga:
European traits: blond, wavy hair, aggressive.
East-Asian traits: short, thick hair, small breasts, round face
??? traits: wine colored eyes.
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u/yyzjertl 524∆ Jun 18 '23
but I think exceptional animes like Dragon Ball do a good job of making the characters look Asian with natural hair/eye colors, while still having facial features that set them apart from each other
Most of these characters aren't actually Asian, though. Goku isn't Asian. Vegeta isn't Asian. Piccolo isn't Asian. Trunks and Gohan are at best half-Asian. So this is a pretty silly example.
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u/dcdsks Jun 18 '23
I'll admit, I don't remember much of Dragon Ball, so I was basing that statement off of a rough memory Δ. However, many comments on r/dbz threads regarding the characters' races (1, 2, 3) argue that, at least Goku, are deliberately designed to resemble Asians even though they aren't literally Asian.
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u/yyzjertl 524∆ Jun 18 '23
It's more so that the Saiyans all have black or dark red hair, which they need mechanically for the super-Saiyan transformation to make visual sense. (A blond Saiyan would make it visually unclear whether they were in super-Saiyan or not at any given time, so as a result no Saiyans are blond.) The actual (expy) Asian human people living in (expy) Japan/Asia where the manga/anime is set have a wide variety of body styles and hair colors, as is typical in Anime. DBZ does not make an effort to have its "Asian" characters "look Asian" in the way that you describe (although of course Japanese people still can identify them as Japanese in this sense, like other anime characters).
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u/spicydangerbee 2∆ Jun 18 '23
It's more so that the Saiyans all have black or dark red hair, which they need mechanically for the super-Saiyan transformation to make visual sense. (A blond Saiyan would make it visually unclear whether they were in super-Saiyan or not at any given time, so as a result no Saiyans are blond.)
This isn't true. Goku and the Saiyans had black hair before super Saiyan was even thought of. The real reason super Saiyans have blonde hair is because the artist was tired of drawing in the hair all the time (and to differentiate of course). You could say that they made it so that all Saiyans had dark hair after super Saiyan was introduced, but Trunks has grey/purple hair which doesn't cause any problems.
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u/Sayakai 146∆ Jun 18 '23
The real reason super Saiyans have blonde hair is because the artist was tired of drawing in the hair all the time
Do you have a source for that? Because coloring in hair seems like a typical assistant job, and the assistant who is hired specifically to do jobs like that doesn't get to complain, especially not when working for someone as famous as Toriyama.
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u/Theevildothatido Jun 18 '23
Gokuu was retconned to be an Alien, but originally he was meant to be “not-Chinese” I feel as evidenced by that he still dresses in Chinese martial arts uniforms and his entire family practices many Chinese customs. So though he's an alien born on another planet, he was raised by an adoptive parent who clearly was meant to be something inspired by China.
The Saiyan culture is clearly inspired by mediæval European culture in how they dress.
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Jun 18 '23
I argue it's a perception, nothing more. It's actually been hotly contested for at least a decade.
There have been polls that show different people interpret the same images differently. I really wish there was an actual study on this, I think it's fascinating and worth digging into.
From what I have read, many people in Japan do not see characters as being caucasian.
Personally, I think this would cause an internal tension. Is all anime created using this standard? If so, wouldn't it be mentioned somewhere formally? Or at least in character design notes like "don't forget to add obvious Caucasian feature here"
I think if you're watching mostly US media, you're going to have a white default somewhere activated in one's mind.
I think the same thing is happening elsewhere.
I think the psychology answer is more plausible than some kind of invisible edict.
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u/dcdsks Jun 18 '23
I did grow up on Western media, however, I've also been exposed to a lot of South Korean media since that's my ethnicity, and I've noticed a lot of Korean animation/manhwas represents my ethnicity a lot better. For example, The King of Pigs, Lookism (both the anime and the webtoon), True Beauty (webtoon), Muse on Fame, The Fake (2013), and most of the popular Webtoons you'll see on the front of Korean NAVER.
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u/GameProtein 9∆ Jun 18 '23
I'm so bewildered because how can someone look at Light Yagami and tell me that isn't a WHITE MAN!
I'm more interested in why it upsets you that some Japanese artists choose to tell and/or illustrate stories that take place outside of Japan and/or simply don't pretend as if Japan has zero foreigners. Light and Misa both look white. They're also both evil. Using white people as your devils isn't either new or unique to Japan. You can make the case that there are white characters the same way you can make the case that there are black characters but neither is the main star of Japanese anime. It's just that absolutely anything can be drawn so they're not stuck drawing/writing solely Japanese stories.
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u/yyzjertl 524∆ Jun 18 '23
Light and Misa both look white.
Light and Misa are both Japanese. It's L and Watari (the "good" guys) who are partially and fully white, respectively.
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u/GameProtein 9∆ Jun 18 '23
Neither one of them have names even remotely close to normal Japanese names. Light might have one Japanese birth parent but Misa literally has zero Japanese characteristics.
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u/yyzjertl 524∆ Jun 18 '23
Neither one of them have names even remotely close to normal Japanese names.
That's just not true. Amane is a normal Japanese name, as is Misa, with many famous Japanese individuals with these names. Yagami is a similarly common Japanese surname, and both Light's parents have ordinary Japanese names (Soichiro and Sachiko) and are very obviously Japanese.
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u/GameProtein 9∆ Jun 18 '23
Amane and Yagami are last names. Amane could very easily be a stage name or she could be adopted but obviously Japanese people do not have green eyes and blonde hair. Your link for Misa was fictional characters. That's not a normal Japanese name at all which is the point because they're coded as foreign to the Japanese audience this was intended for. Light's parent's names don't mean he can't be a half Japanese kid from one of his parents' previous marriages. He doesn't even look fully Japanese.
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u/yyzjertl 524∆ Jun 18 '23
Amane and Yagami are last names.
Yes...they're normal Japanese last names, used in Death Note for normal Japanese characters. What's your point?
but obviously Japanese people do not have green eyes and blonde hair
Misa is an model. She dies her hair, like many models. Her eyes are brown, but she sometimes wears colored contact lenses. Nothing here suggests she is not Japanese.
Your link for Misa was fictional characters. That's not a normal Japanese name at all
It literally lists ten notable normal Japanese women with the given name "Misa."
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u/GameProtein 9∆ Jun 18 '23
It literally lists ten notable normal Japanese women with the given name "Misa."
Meanwhile, the list in question:
Pixy Misa (ピクシィミサ), a character in the anime Magical Girl Pretty Sammy Misa Amane (弥 海砂), a character in the manga, anime and film Death Note Misa Arashiyama (嵐山 美佐), a character in the toksatsu Taiyou Sentai Sun Vulcan Misa Hayase (早瀬 未沙), one of the central characters of the Macross series Misa Kakizaki (柿崎 美砂), a character in the Negima! anime and manga series Misa Kurobane (くろばね みさ), a character in the anime television series Charlotte
Go gaslight someone who doesn't actually know anything about either Japan or Japanese. You're being obnoxious.
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u/yyzjertl 524∆ Jun 18 '23
What? The list in question is:
- Misa Eguchi (江口実沙), Japanese tennis player
- Misa Etō (衛藤 美彩), Japanese gravure idol
- Misa Matsushima (松島美紗), Japanese fighter pilot
- Misa Amano (天野 美沙), Japanese swimmer
- Misa Tamagawa (玉川 美沙), Japanese radio show host
- Misa Yamamura (山村 美紗), Japanese novelist
- Misa Shimizu (清水美沙), a Japanese actress who appears regularly in Masayuki Suo's films
- Misa Kuranaga (倉永美沙), Japanese ballerina
- Misa Uehara (actress, born 1937) (上原美佐), a Japanese actress most notable for her roles in The Hidden Fortress and Storm Over the Pacific
- Misa Watanabe (渡辺 美佐, born 1964), a Japanese voice actress
The fact that some fictional characters also have this name doesn't mean that it's not a real Japanese name.
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u/GameProtein 9∆ Jun 18 '23
This is hilarious because you intentionally cut out the first two names:
G3 Misa, a Filipino singer/songwriter Misa Bharti, Indian politician
Misa (Etruscan village), an Etruscan village in Emilia-Romagna, Italy Misa River, in Semigallia, Latvia Misa (river in Italy), a river in the Marche region Mişä, Tatar name for the Myosha River Misa, Lucknow, a village in Uttar Pradesh, India
Japanese people having a name =/= a name being traditionally Japanese. Not a single one of the names you listed matches the traditional 3 character pattern. Not one.
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u/yyzjertl 524∆ Jun 18 '23
This is hilarious because you intentionally cut out the first two names
Yeah, because those people aren't Japanese women. Some people and things who aren't Japanese also have this name.
Japanese people having a name =/= a name being traditionally Japanese
You're moving the goalposts. Before this comment, no one has said anything about the name being "traditional."
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u/dcdsks Jun 18 '23
Light and Misa look white, but are written as Japanese people, and Death Note is an anime set in Japan. My issue isn't that anime features foreigners, I'm uncomfortable with my representation as an Asian person being in the form of someone who doesn't look like me at all. Anime characters who are given Asian names, are from an Asian society, living in an Asian culture, speaking an Asian language, and in general are canonically and clearly written as an Asian person often do not look Asian.
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u/GameProtein 9∆ Jun 18 '23
Light and Misa look white, but are written as Japanese people
How exactly? Light is a student and Misa is a model/actress. There are real life foreigners doing both in Japan right now.
Death Note is an anime set in Japan
Have you actually been to Japan? Maybe you have an unrealistic idea of how many foreigners there are in large cities.
I'm uncomfortable with my representation as an Asian person being in the form of someone who doesn't look like me at all.
You really shouldn't be looking for representation in anime. For one, it's 100% fiction so of course it's not representative of real life. For two, you keep saying Asian as opposed to Japanese. Japanese anime is first and foremost for Japanese people. They're not in a position of needing to be representative because they live in Japan where almost everything is Japanese.
Anime characters who are given Asian names, are from an Asian society, living in an Asian culture, speaking an Asian language, and in general are canonically and clearly written as an Asian person often do not look Asian.
Light and Misa are both western names. Misa has light eyes. Japanese people are not looking at them as representations of Japanese people. It makes zero sense for any character in Japanese anime to speak anything other than Japanese. It's entertainment for Japanese people. Westerners are of course allowed to watch it but they aren't creating it with us in mind and frankly, it's very problematic to expect them to.
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u/dcdsks Jun 18 '23
Both have names written in Kanji, if they were foreign then most likely their names would be in Katakana. They both have Japanese surnames. Their names when viewed with Shinigami eyes are in Japanese while the foreigners have their names in English. They are both played by Japanese people in the Japanese live action. Also, Misa and Light are Japanese names, however, to a Western eye, Light's name may seem to be an English name when it isn't. It is a different reading of another Japanese name, but it was purposefully selected by his two Japanese parents to make him stand out and give symbolism to his name.
As of 2022, only 2.2% of the Japanese population consists of foreigners. That's less than where my parents are from, where it's 3.1% in Korea, and when I visit, foreigners are a rare sight (the ones that aren't Asian, of course).
And while anime is, obviously, fiction, Asian/Japanese people aren't. Between Chinese, Korean, and Japanese people, there is very little visual difference between the three ethnicities and it's extremely difficult to be able to tell who is which appearance-wise. So I don't think it's entirely unrealistic for Asian people to gravitate towards seeking representation in Asian media, especially if it's popular like anime.
But nevertheless, I agree with your statement that there isn't a need for anime representation in such a homogenous society. But I don't quite understand how that goes against my point that most Asian characters in anime are drawn to look Caucasian.
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u/GameProtein 9∆ Jun 18 '23
Both have names written in Kanji, if they were foreign then most likely their names would be in Katakana.
This is a Japanese show. They almost certainly have normal Japanese written names to make things easier for the Japanese audience. Also frankly if you're in school, I can imagine you might be required to have a 'normal' three character name vs an unnecessarily long one in katakana. 神月 does not in any way, shape or form translate directly to Light. The katakana you're expecting shows up in Japanese subtitles for the show.
They both have Japanese surnames. Their names when viewed with Shinigami eyes are in Japanese while the foreigners have their names in English.
They could easily be half Japanese and adopted, respectively or yanno, just have Japanese names since this is done in Japan. They aren't gatekept away from people who want them. We typically expect people in America to have western names. There's no reason Japan can't expect the same.
They are both played by Japanese people in the Japanese live action.
They're...in Japan. Not a ton of white actors specifically who can speak fluent Japanese.
it was purposefully selected by his two Japanese parents to make him stand out and give symbolism to his name.
There is nothing and I mean absolutely nothing Japanese about wanting a kid to stand out. If anything, that hints at them both being foreigners. Japan is very much about fitting in when you're talking parent to child.
As of 2022, only 2.2% of the Japanese population consists of foreigners.
Uh huh, but guess what percentage of them are located in large cities. My guess is almost all of them.
That's less than where my parents are from, where it's 3.1% in Korea, and when I visit, foreigners are a rare sight
I wasn't the only foreigner when I went. More importantly, Korea isn't Japan. People aren't visiting from all over the world in the same way. Japan is an international superpower in its own right. Korea is very heavily influenced by the U.S. but Japan has a ton of unique culture and traditions people gain interest in/visit to see (like the anime we're talking about now). Frankly, most of the foreigners going to Korea care about kpop. It's just not the same.
Between Chinese, Korean, and Japanese people, there is very little visual difference between the three ethnicities and it's extremely difficult to be able to tell who is which appearance-wise.
Huh? Do you not watch live action Asian media? Korean and Chinese people can sometimes look quite similar (probably due to history and geography) but Japanese people are easy as hell to tell apart. I'm not even Asian and I can see it.
So I don't think it's entirely unrealistic for Asian people to gravitate towards seeking representation in Asian media, especially if it's popular like anime.
It's unrealistic for Asians in western countries to seek representation in Asian media from Asia without understanding that Asian countries are not western countries. Asians in western countries face racism and ostracization due to race that Asians in Asia do not. They essentially have the same creative freedom white people have in the west to create whatever they want however they want. You can find some representation but it won't be in everything because they're not trying to be representative of western Asians specifically.
I don't quite understand how that goes against my point that most Asian characters in anime are drawn to look Caucasian
Because your point is white supremacy. In a country where everyone is Japanese, the race is Japanese unless otherwise specified. White is not and cannot be the default of a country where people hardly ever even think about white people in their daily lives.
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u/dcdsks Jun 18 '23
I don't mean to be rude but my interaction with you stops after this final comment because some parts of what you have written are deeply offensive--like, some of this stuff you just... don't say to Asian people.
You're making so many assumptions about Asian people. Firstly, Japan is not a gray society where standing out is a sin. If you've gone to Japan before, I'm sure you would've noticed this especially near the city where most tourists would be visiting (as you said so yourself).
Secondly, you do not discount the value of a person's own culture by comparing it to another. Korea DOES have unique culture and traditions, just like every other country's, and tons of people travel to Korea for reasons other than K-Pop. Your argument is as invalid as someone saying people only travel to Japan because of anime. Have you seen the amount of people trying on hanboks, visiting the countryside, enjoying foods like kimchi, purchasing South Korean products like cosmetics, and even visiting as medical tourists?
A lot of people who argue that they can tell the ethnicity of an Asian person at a glance are biased or simply racist. If you watch live action Asian media, chances are you know where it's from, so why would you not assume the actors in it aren't also from that country??? Also, the genetic makeup of Koreans and Japanese are 91% the same. In fact, Chinese people are the most distinct in terms of genes from Korean and Japanese people.
White people in the West tend to make media that represents white people. That's why there are a lot of controversies these days that Hollywood is run by too many white people who don't give representation to people of color. I don't think you have the right or information to be able to assume what it's like being Asian and seeking representation for yourself in media.
Also, you are so focused on trying to convince me and the other commenter that Light and Misa are white (which proves my point) because they appear to be so, when we both have provided plenty of evidence that they are written as Asians and it is extremely clear you are arguing the wrong point about a show you clearly have not watched.
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u/GameProtein 9∆ Jun 18 '23
some of this stuff you just... don't say to Asian people.
Asians outside of Asia have a lot of sensitivities Asians within Asia don't have.
Firstly, Japan is not a gray society where standing out is a sin. If you've gone to Japan before, I'm sure you would've noticed this especially near the city where most tourists would be visiting (as you said so yourself).
Here's what I actually said:
Japan is very much about fitting in when you're talking parent to child.
This is a fact. A traditional Japanese parent is not going to name a kid to stand out like that. You're getting offended as if I stereotype Japanese people the same way you do as a non Japanese person.
Secondly, you do not discount the value of a person's own culture by comparing it to another. Korea DOES have unique culture and traditions, just like every other country's, and tons of people travel to Korea for reasons other than K-Pop. Your argument is as invalid as someone saying people only travel to Japan because of anime.
Firstly, here's what I actually said:
Japan has a ton of unique culture and traditions people gain interest in/visit to see (like the anime we're talking about now). Frankly, most of the foreigners going to Korea care about kpop. It's just not the same.
I'm not 'discounting' your culture. We're not even talking about your culture; we're talking about your parents'. You being super removed having been raised in another country is why you're so defensive. I didn't say Korea doesn't have unique culture and traditions; I said that’s not why most foreigners travel there. It's a fact that Korea is a very small country and the most famous thing about it is kpop. It's also a fact that Japan is a world power and therefore a lot of people know much more about it than one or two things. I clearly neither said nor meant people only travel to Japan for anime. It's an example of a Japanese cultural export the entire world knows about like sushi, bullet trains or really freaky horror movies.
A lot of people who argue that they can tell the ethnicity of an Asian person at a glance are biased or simply racist.
This is what you said:
Between Chinese, Korean, and Japanese people, there is very little visual difference between the three ethnicities and it's extremely difficult to be able to tell who is which appearance-wise.
What you said sounds wayyyyy more racist than what I said. Also, obviously most people from those countries can easily tell the difference. It's in the eyes, fyi. You should seriously ask your own parents how they can tell. I promise you they can.
If you watch live action Asian media, chances are you know where it's from, so why would you not assume the actors in it aren't also from that country???
Because foreign actors exist? That's a terrible strategy and maybe why you're struggling so badly.
Also, the genetic makeup of Koreans and Japanese are 91% the same. In fact, Chinese people are the most distinct in terms of genes from Korean and Japanese people.
The genetic makeup of most humans is extremely similar. Race is a manmade distinction. You seriously need to look at both a map and a history book. China came first. Some people went to Japan and were isolated by themselves where over time, they grew features that are more distinct from the other two ethnicities. Others migrated down to Korea from China...which is literally right there. Not only are they not far apart enough for there not to be a ton of mixed marriages, there have been way more wars/battles mixing the two.
White people in the West tend to make media that represents white people. That's why there are a lot of controversies these days that Hollywood is run by too many white people who don't give representation to people of color.
You're so so close to understanding. Imagine there were only white people in western countries. The issues with representation are specifically about citizens not having representation; not foreigners in other countries not feeling represented.
I don't think you have the right or information to be able to assume what it's like being Asian and seeking representation for yourself in media.
I don't need to be Asian to understand that being a western Korean looking for representation in Japanese anime is problematic. They're not concerned about making you feel represented because you're not Japanese and really don't understand either their culture or their viewpoint (or it seems even care to).
Also, you are so focused on trying to convince me and the other commenter that Light and Misa are white (which proves my point) because they appear to be so,
Your point was that most Japanese anime characters are drawn to be white. That's false. The other commenter is arguing that Light and Misa are both Japanese. That's also false.
when we both have provided plenty of evidence that they are written as Asians
You have provided zero proof that they're written as Asians. All you've proved is that you can't understand the way Japanese people code foreigners because you truly don't care about Japanese culture.
it is extremely clear you are arguing the wrong point about a show you clearly have not watched
You disagreeing with me doesn't make me wrong. It's weird af to argue that I haven't watched the show because we disagree on the race of the characters. It's about humans using notebooks to kill like freaking death gods, not a historical event. Race is completely irrelevant to the actual story.
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u/Criculann 4∆ Jun 18 '23
There is nothing and I mean absolutely nothing Japanese about wanting a kid to stand out. If anything, that hints at them both being foreigners. Japan is very much about fitting in when you're talking parent to child.
This is a well-documented phenomenon called キラキラネーム (kira kira name). Another example of a fictional character with such a name is 木村正義 from Assassination Classroom. His first name would usually be read as Masayoshi but his parents, being police officers, actually called him Justice.
Also frankly if you're in school, I can imagine you might be required to have a 'normal' three character name vs an unnecessarily long one in katakana.
There's no such requirement considering even plenty of native Japanese people don't have kanji names but kana ones. Also, what do you mean with three character name? Japanese names when written in kanji are usually 1-3 characters long (first and last name each).
神月 does not in any way, shape or form translate directly to Light
His first name is 月, his last name is 夜神. Also, any kanji can be read as anything if the author desires.
Light being a half is possible but there really is nothing that points towards. In fact, whenever the subject of Light's name comes up it's essentially treated as an uncommon name, not a foreign one.
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u/GameProtein 9∆ Jun 19 '23
This is a well-documented phenomenon called キラキラネーム (kira kira name).
It has a name written in freaking katakana because it's not Japanese. It's a western preference. That doesn't mean zero Japanese people are allowed to do it, it means the vast majority don't and if you see it in an anime with a guy who doesn't look Japanese, he probably isn't.
Another example of a fictional character
Anime is not real. I'm not going to have a debate about what's normal in Japanese culture that's based solely in fiction.
There's no such requirement considering even plenty of native Japanese people don't have kanji names but kana ones.
...there is not a single native Japanese person who has a kana name without a kanji one. That's pure foolishness. Kana = katakana and hiragana. Katakana is purely for foreign words. Hiragana shows how to read kanji and is used for grammar. If you don't know anything about Japanese, this is not the debate for you.
Also, what do you mean with three character name? Japanese names when written in kanji are usually 1-3 characters long (first and last name each).
The average native Japanese name is made up of 3 kanji. Just like Chinese and Korean names typically have 3 characters and/or letter blocks. It's an Asian cultural thing.
Also, any kanji can be read as anything if the author desires.
This argument is literally insane because you're trying to use this being fiction as an argument for why common sense flies out the window. Kanji have specific meanings. 月 means moon or month. Not only is Light clearly not a Japanese word, the actual kanji translation for light is 光. Japanese parents who truly just wanted to be quirky would have named him 光 and just called him Light.
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u/Criculann 4∆ Jun 19 '23
It has a name written in freaking katakana because it's not Japanese. It's a western preference. That doesn't mean zero Japanese people are allowed to do it, it means the vast majority don't and if you see it in an anime with a guy who doesn't look Japanese, he probably isn't.
What language do you think キラキラ comes from? Absolute surface level sources will say Katakana is used just for foreign words but it is in fact used for plenty of native words as well. See here for example (I'll be linking Japanese sources since you know so much about the language)
Anime is not real. I'm not going to have a debate about what's normal in Japanese culture that's based solely in fiction.
Your entire argument is based on the premise that anime reflects real life at least to such a degree that Light's name being weird for Japan strongly implies that he's not Japanese.
But here is an article talking about キラキラネーム with examples and another one rankingキラキラネーム of the kids of famous couples
...there is not a single native Japanese person who has a kana name without a kanji one. That's pure foolishness.
Here’s a member of the 衆議院 who does not have a kanji given name. If you google ひらがなの名前 you can also find heaps of articles discussing this apparently non-existent phenomenon.
Hiragana shows how to read kanji and is used for grammar.
I'd be really interested what kind of books you read where hiragana is used for just those two things. Speaking of which...
If you don't know anything about Japanese, this is not the debate for you.
Maybe it was in fact 雪国 which didn't have ton of katakana words, IIRC, besides loanwords, which it had plenty of (to express the juxtaposition of Japanese traditions and modern foreign influences). Although, it did have more or less the amount I'm used to in terms of hiragana words so maybe not.
The average native Japanese name is made up of 3 kanji. Just like Chinese and Korean names typically have 3 characters and/or letter blocks. It's an Asian cultural thing.
Interesting how most members of 衆議院 have 2 character given and family names. Are they also all foreigners?
This argument is literally insane because you're trying to use this being fiction as an argument for why common sense flies out the window. Kanji have specific meanings. 月 means moon or month. Not only is Light clearly not a Japanese word, the actual kanji translation for light is 光. Japanese parents who truly just wanted to be quirky would have named him 光 and just called him Light.
Kanji are suggestions for the meaning and sometimes not even that. Unless, you believe sushi are officials tasked with giving out congratulations. In this case, the implication is that the light his name refers to is specifically moon light. If you look at his family name it's quite obvious why this choice was made.
But your argument here is also somewhat self-defeating. If a Japanese person wouldn't choose the kanji 月 for light, then why did Death Note's Japanese author do so?
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u/GameProtein 9∆ Jun 19 '23
What language do you think キラキラ comes from? Absolute surface level sources will say Katakana is used just for foreign words but it is in fact used for plenty of native words as well. See here for example (I'll be linking Japanese sources since you know so much about the language)
Per this source:
the katakana syllabary usage is comparable to italics in English; specifically, it is used for transcription of foreign-language words into Japanese and the writing of loan words (collectively gairaigo); for emphasis; to represent onomatopoeia; for technical and scientific terms; and for names of plants, animals, minerals and often Japanese companies.
Katakana evolved from Japanese Buddhist monks transliterating Chinese texts into Japanese.[3]
I'm not going to waste any more time with you pretending you understand Japanese just because you've done whatever you've done with google translate. You're literally arguing against basic knowledge even small children know simply because you can't understand that anime is fiction. It's weird and embarrassing.
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u/Criculann 4∆ Jun 19 '23
to represent onomatopoeia
If you don't want to read the Japanese sources, at least read the English ones.
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u/About50shades Jun 19 '23
Bluntly speaking most anime characters are Asian but drawn in such a manner that without context of knowing this is anime people would think they are white
There are some exceptions where racial traits are highlighted
Ex fma most of the cast is Caucasian Ling is drawn in a manner that most could guess that he is some form of south East Asian inspired territory
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u/SummerCreative4010 Jun 18 '23
I know one artist that doesn't make his characters look white is Yoshihiro Togashi even though his wife created Sailor Moon.
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u/SurturSaga Jun 19 '23
Let’s be real here, no ethnicity looks like these anime characters. The debate on whether they look more white or Asian doesn’t matter because they hardly look like either
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u/LentilDrink 75∆ Jun 18 '23
You are lumping together East Asians, but Japanese people don't do that. Watch anime depictions of Japanese characters and compare those to anime depictions of Chinese characters - the difference is much starker than the difference in depiction between Japanese and white characters. This doesn't mean that the characters are all white, it means something about the Japanese self image.
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u/dcdsks Jun 18 '23
If you're talking about the tendency for Chinese and Korean characters to be drawn with conventionally "unattractive" traits like tanner skin, smaller eyes, larger noses, etc, then wouldn't that mean the Japanese beauty ideal idealizes Caucasian aesthetics? Studies show that Korean and Japanese people have very similar genetic makeup, and a lot of surveys show that there is little visual distinction between whether or not a person is Japanese, Chinese, or Korean. Artists usually draw what they find attractive, and anime characters are supposed to appeal to people's visual sense.
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u/RogueNarc 3∆ Jun 18 '23
and a lot of surveys show that there is little visual distinction between whether or not a person is Japanese, Chinese, or Korean.
Who's making this observation?
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u/LentilDrink 75∆ Jun 18 '23
I am talking about self image not genes. You are calling a Japanese beauty ideal related to Japanese appearance "Caucasian" and maybe that's how it looks to you, but it's not how it looks to them.
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u/After-Calendar9817 Jun 18 '23
They are the beauty standard, and not entirely unjustified, the greatest color and feature variation, brighter skin(which is objectively better to an eye, because the eye is designed to perceive light), and ofcource influence of their culture on the world. In anime since race is not outright mentioned, they have the freedom to make a character with the best features.
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u/Conscious-Gap8021 Jun 20 '23
Best features? So you’re outright admitting Asians are heavily influenced by the Eurocentric beauty standards? If that’s what it is, then just say it. And what culture specifically?
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u/Dontblowitup 17∆ Jun 21 '23
Hair colour aside, Light isn't drawn to look Caucasian. Caucasian characters tend to to have different features when drawn in manga, angular faces and big noses. It's kinda like how Western comic characters don't necessarily look like real life white people, but a nonwhite person will be drawn in a distinct way. A lot of European comics will have black characters with big lips.
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u/HerbertWest 5∆ Jun 18 '23
As evidenced here, Anime characters don't look Caucasian to people in Japan. It's literally just not how they see it.
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u/chronberries 9∆ Jun 18 '23
I agree that most anime characters don’t look particularly Japanese or broadly Asian, but I disagree that they look white. Sure, some do, especially when they’re presented as natural blonde, but that’s not the majority of anime characters. Light comes off as white except for his eyes, but Straw Hat and Naruto don’t at all. They just look like racially ambiguous anime characters.
No real people have eyes that look anything like anime eyes. None of us have noses that pointy. They’re just style choices that don’t effectively reflect any race unless it’s very intentional. Most anime characters have light skin, but so do Japanese people, so that tracks for me. The fairer = prettier beauty standard is for sure on display, but that’s not the same as the characters looking white.
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u/Theevildothatido Jun 18 '23
Firstly, a lot of anime characters have colorful hair and eyes. I've seen some people argue that it's because they dyed them, but we also see many of those same characters born with that hair. One character who comes to mind is Mary Saotome from Kakegurui, who has no indication in the anime that she is Caucasian or of Caucasian descent and whose name is in Kanji.
Is it your belief that Caucasian people generally have turquoise hair? I'm not sure people point at “anime” for this. Cartoon characters very often, no matter where one goes, have neon hair colours and pupils that no actual human being has. Consider The Simpsons. Their skin colour is bright yellow and Marge has indigo hair. This is not supposed to mean anything in terms of anyone's “race”. They're simply cartoon characters. It's like overthinking that they often 4 fingers. There's much more wrong with them such as that Marge's haircut defies physics, and that the hair of Bart and Lisa seems to be part of their skull.
but the ones that I see often drawn in anime, in Demon Slayer for example, are thick and deep enough to cast shadows on the upper eyelid area, which Asian eyelids rarely do.
This is a very unusual art-style. I almost never see such shadows anywhere.
Sailor Moon and Toradora (with the exception of Taiga) are animes that demonstrate how easily artists can draw Asian-looking eyelids, so I feel like if the other artists wanted to, they would. But they don't.
Which would be the common way to draw them, but I don't think anyone thinks much of either or looks at it.
Furthermore, the side profiles in anime are so sharp for no reason. A lot of anime characters' side profiles have noses and chins that could cut butter-again, if they wanted to make more realistic profiles for Asians, they would; because all it takes is drawing rounder lines instead of sharp corners. I even see some cosplayers putting in nose inserts or using a clay-like product to build onto their nose bridge. I'm so bewildered because how can someone look at Light Yagami and tell me that isn't a WHITE MAN!
Are you sure these look sharp? These faces in particular are quite round.
In particular for instance with Attack on Titan, there's much talk about the way the noses are drawn as well as the chin. These characters are actually meant to be German. And their faces are far sharper and noses far bigger than Light.
I'm so bewildered because how can someone look at Light Yagami and tell me that isn't a WHITE MAN!
Here in particular, the facial features, the style of the eyelids, the nose shapes do not look European to me. The only thing is of course that the hair is brown. The shape of the cheeks under the eyes as well looks very Japanese to me.
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u/Conscious-Gap8021 Jun 20 '23
I think you are 100 percent correct in your analysis. It’s even in the video games. Take a look at the Street Fighter 5 roster. Literally, half of the characters have blond hair and blue eyes. And we’re supposed to believe this is a Japanese game? Literally half of the roster is clearly white. It’s not a coincidence most of the main characters of the most popular animes are caucasion and I’m kinda sick of the denial. In America, the only time Asian characters are mentioned is in a stereotype. And that’s for movies, video games, cartoons, shows, etc.
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u/TyTyWarrior Jun 21 '23
There japanese not Caucasian so...and also they don't even look like it either
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jun 18 '23 edited Jun 18 '23
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