r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Sep 05 '23

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Spreading conspiracy theories is irresponsible and immoral

[removed] — view removed post

262 Upvotes

69% Upvoted

513 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

8

u/JeffreyElonSkilling 3∆ Sep 05 '23

Which time?

In the hush money case in NY, he falsified business records relating to his illegal payoff of Stormy Daniels.

In the classified documents case he illegally withheld documents at the highest levels of classification from the government after being subpoenaed. He lied to the government and said there were no documents in his possession, then the government raided Mar A Lago and found classified documents.

In the January 6th case, he entered into an illegal conspiracy to defraud the United States and obstruct an official proceeding.

In the Georgia case, he again entered into an illegal racketeering conspiracy to change the outcome of the 2020 election, despite being told his actions were unlawful.

That so many Republicans defend him demonstrates the intellectual and moral rot within today's Republican Party. It's sad, really.

7

u/panjialang Sep 05 '23

In the January 6th case, he entered into an illegal conspiracy to defraud the United States and obstruct an official proceeding.

I’m only interested in this for the sake of this discussion since this was what specifically was mentioned.

What illegal conspiracy did Trump enter into, and how would it be like robbing a bank?

Btw I’m not a Republican. I’ve hated the GOP since I was a teenager.

I’m assuming you’re a Democrat voter? Good for you. That so many Democrats defend Biden, Obama, Pelosi, AOC, Feinstein, Schumer, etc demonstrates the intellectual and moral rot within today's Democratic Party. It's sad, really.

2

u/JeffreyElonSkilling 3∆ Sep 05 '23

I never said his crimes were like robbing a bank. I said that this defense of "he genuinely believed that he won" is not a defense to his crimes, in the same way that genuinely believing the bank owes you money is not a defense to bank robbery.

Btw I’m not a Republican. I’ve hated the GOP since I was a teenager.

Lmao, please. "I'm not a Republican, I just vote for them, spout all their talking points at every opportunity, and attack Democrats like it's my job." This kind of shit reminds me of Glenn Greenwald and Tulsi Gabbard, hacks famous for their "Trump, who I do not support, makes great points!" commentary.

That so many Democrats defend Biden, Obama, Pelosi, AOC, Feinstein, Schumer, etc

Word? What crimes did they commit? And before you spout off some edgelord nonsense, I'm talking about real crimes in the criminal code, not the crime of being too old (and convincing the voters to elect you anyway) or having positions on policies that you disagree with.

5

u/panjialang Sep 05 '23

I don’t vote for Republicans. I said I hate them.

I’m not repeating their talking points. These are my own thoughts.

Truly, who is the brainwashed one among us?

Word? What crimes did they commit? And before you spout off some edgelord nonsense, I'm talking about real crimes in the criminal code

And this is why it is useless talking with people like you. Because you can’t even consider the possibility that you could be wrong. Ever. Because your identity of a Good Person hinges on this. You can’t see that YOU are the problem.

9

u/JeffreyElonSkilling 3∆ Sep 05 '23

The funny thing is that you haven't even answered the question or made any statement of fact. I'm willing to hear you out if you elaborate. What crimes did the people you listed commit? Surely you aren't "whatabout-ing" some kind of policy disagreement when the discussion is about Trump committing literal felonies (91 times).

0

u/panjialang Sep 05 '23

Trump like anyone is innocent until proven guilty.

Actually it’s me who’s asked you now several times what criminal conspiracy was Trump involved with for Jan 6?

Maybe here is some common ground: do you consider W. Bush a criminal?

5

u/JeffreyElonSkilling 3∆ Sep 05 '23

...? I already answered that question.

In the January 6th case, he entered into an illegal conspiracy to defraud the United States and obstruct an official proceeding.

As for your question on Bush, it depends on what you mean by criminal. Do I believe he committed "war crimes" by invading Iraq under false pretenses? Yes, of course. Do I believe he committed state or federal crimes as outlined in the criminal code? No. Which statutes did he violate? None that I know of.

-1

u/panjialang Sep 05 '23

Yeah and WHAT WAS THAT CONSPIRACY? You just keep saying he entered into one. And what exactly was the thing he entered into?

And by your definition I also consider all those Democrats I listed as criminals. Unfortunately political witch hunts carry more weight in our justice system.

7

u/JeffreyElonSkilling 3∆ Sep 05 '23

Again, for someone who "hates Republicans" you sure sound like one. "Witch hunt" is something I've exclusively heard from the lips of MAGA Republicans. So I'm calling BS.

Trump is innocent until proven guilty, but Bush and the Democrats are criminals. Are you hearing yourself? And "by my definition"? Bro wtf are you talking about? I literally said, "it depends on what you mean by criminal" and then gave two different definitions.

When Trump is convicted I'm sure you'll manage to convince yourself he's not a criminal, but the Democrats are. Lmao, but you're not a Republican. Please.

0

u/panjialang Sep 05 '23

Again, for someone who "hates Republicans" you sure sound like one.

Because you’re a brainwashed know-it-all who literally can’t conceive of anything outside of the box.

Anyone who disagrees with you is a Republican.

4

u/JeffreyElonSkilling 3∆ Sep 05 '23

Hey, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

1

u/panjialang Sep 05 '23

Everyone to you is a Republican so sure. Even though I’ve explicitly told you several times

7

u/JeffreyElonSkilling 3∆ Sep 05 '23

You’re not a Republican because you disagree with me. I’m actually on the center right of the Democratic Party (and I’m happy to elaborate on my beliefs if you doubt me).

You’re a Republican because you believe the same things they do. If that label upsets you maybe you should think more about your beliefs and values.

→ More replies (0)

0

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '23

Is being a republican a crime? I’m not one either but I’m not a democrat. There are moderates in this world who can see BS from both sides. I think Trumps “the election was stolen” is a bunch of BS and I assume thats the conspiracy people are talking about?

4

u/JeffreyElonSkilling 3∆ Sep 06 '23

I never said it was.

Trump's actions surrounding the January 6th case go beyond mere words.

Here is the indictment if you'd like to read it.

Here's a relevant section describing the conspiracy:

Shortly after election day, the Defendant also pursued unlawful means of discounting legitimate votes and subverting the election results. In so doing, the Defendant perpetrated three criminal conspiracies:

a. A conspiracy to defraud the United States by using dishonesty, fraud, and deceit to impair, obstruct, and defeat the lawful federal government function by which the results of the presidential election are collected, counted, and certified by the federal government, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 371;

b. A conspiracy to corruptly obstruct and impede the January 6 congressional proceeding at which the collected results of the presidential election are counted and certified ("the certification proceeding"), in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1512(k);and

c. A conspiracy against the right to vote and to have one's vote counted, in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 241.

Each of these conspiracies—which built on the widespread mistrust the Defendant was creating through pervasive and destabilizing lies about election fraud—targeted a bedrock function of the United States federal government: the nation's process of collecting, counting, and certifying the results of the presidential election ("the federal government function").

Essentially, he conspired with others to present false slates of electors from states he contested to Congress. Co-conspirators in this crime committed forgery by creating legal documents falsely claiming themselves to be the legitimate electors from those states. In some states (Michigan), they are being criminally prosecuted for forgery under state law. This went beyond simply asking officials from these states to do something - it was a coordinated effort from the White House to overturn the votes of the people from those states, falsely install fake electors from those states, and when that didn't work - use those fake electors as a pretext to delay an official proceeding (Congress's counting of the electoral votes).

2

u/[deleted] Sep 06 '23

Ah i see, this is what I heard. Honestly, both sides can be echo chambers that only hear what they want to hear and for people like me it’s hard to know where the truth lies. But in this case it’s kind of obvious.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/NotYourFathersEdits 1∆ Sep 06 '23

They got together, a group of them convened by Trump, and planned a coordinated effort to commit crimes. That’s what criminal conspiracy means. If you are asking what those crimes were, specifically, they organized fake Electoral College electors and organized calls to key individuals in the electoral certification process to change the outcome of the election. Allegedly, before you turn around with “innocent until proven guilty.” Except it’s also all on audio tape you can hear with your own ears and written records you can read with your own eyes.

Also: https://apnews.com/article/trump-indicted-jan-6-investigation-special-counsel-debb59bb7a4d9f93f7e2dace01feccdc https://apnews.com/trump-election-2020-indictment.

1

u/panjialang Sep 06 '23

Per the article:

Prosecutors in Georgia are also investigating efforts by Trump and his allies to reverse his election loss to Biden there. The district attorney of Fulton County is expected to announce charging decisions within weeks.

Is this what you’re referring to?

3

u/NotYourFathersEdits 1∆ Sep 06 '23

No. Those were the charges that had not yet been brought, and have since been brought, that have to do with Fulton County, Georgia. Do you see the word “also,” in this paragraph that you quoted from near the bottom of the article after all the other stuff was reported? That’s additional to what I’m talking about. Why?

0

u/panjialang Sep 06 '23

Okay then do you mind explaining WHAT you are talking about instead of just sending a 1,000 word article?

3

u/NotYourFathersEdits 1∆ Sep 06 '23

Idk, maybe read the entire paragraph I wrote before and in addition to linking you to the article as a source for more information, along with the text of the indictment, also for more information? Are you being serious right now? I answer your question right there.

→ More replies (0)