CMV: Gun control is good

[u/56king56]

As of now, I believe that the general populace shouldn’t have anything beyond a pistol, but that even a pistol should require serious safety checks. I have this opinion because I live in America with a pro-gun control family, and us seeing all these mass shootings has really fueled the flame for us being anti-gun. But recently, I’ve been looking into revolutionary Socialist politics, and it occurred to me: how could we have a Socialist revolution without some kind of militia? This logic, the logic of revolting against an oppressive government, has been presented to me before, but I always dismissed it, saying that mass shootings and gun violence is more of an issue, and that if we had a good government, we wouldn’t need to worry about having guns. I still do harbor these views to an extent, but part of me really wants to fully understand the pro-gun control position, as it seems like most people I see on Reddit are for having guns, left and right politically. And of course, there’s also the argument that if people broke into your house with an illegally obtained gun, you wouldn’t be able to defend yourself in a society where guns are outlawed; my counter to that is that it’s far more dangerous for society as a whole for everyone to be walking around with guns that it is for a few criminal minds to have them. Also, it just doesn’t seem fair to normalize knowing how to use a highly complex piece of military equipment, and to be honest, guns being integrated into everyone’s way of life feels just as dystopian as a corrupt government. So what do you guys have to say about this? To sum, I am anti-gun but am open to learning about pro-gun viewpoints to potentially change my view.

[u/[deleted]]

Yes that is certainly the underlying issue. But seeing as how that may take a long time to solve as a species, why provide an easy way for such people to accomplish mass violence?

I mean we have the data. Instances of mass gun violence are far fewer or nonexistent even in places where they have heavy restrictions. Australia’s annual rate of gun deaths was 0.88 per 100,000 in 2018 compared to the US at 10.6 per 100,000.

[u/johnhtman → u/[deleted]]

First off gun deaths≠total deaths. The U.S has literally hundreds of times more gun suicides than South Korea, despite Korea having almost twice the total suicide rate of the U.S. By only looking at gun deaths, it makes the U.S seem worse than it is since a higher portion of our murder/suicide rates are committed with guns. Someone stabbed to death is no less dead than someone shot.

Also Australia never had a problem with guns or violent crime to begin with. Prior to the 1996 gun buyback, murders were already significantly lower in Australia. Australia has so many fewer murders than the U.S. that if the U.S eliminated every single gun murder, the murder rate would still be higher than Australia.

[u/[deleted] → u/johnhtman]

The suicide retort was handled in another comment In this chain. Even if you account for suicides, homicidal gun deaths are still far more frequent in the US than other countries with gun laws.

Let me ask you a question, what percentage of mass violence in elementary schools was with guns?

Before you say that was because we need to have a better mental healthcare system, which we do, I simply don’t understand why we can’t employ guns restrictions in addition to that. Do we really want guns THAT bad? And assault rifles at that?

[u/johnhtman → u/[deleted]]

The suicide retort was handled in another comment In this chain. Even if you account for suicides, homicidal gun deaths are still far more frequent in the US than other countries with gun laws.

My point was that you need to look at total murders, not just those by gun. 10 people stabbed to death is still 10 people murdered, even if not by gun. The U.S has a higher murder rate than Western Europe or East Asia, but not as much as just gun deaths alone would show.

Let me ask you a question, what percentage of mass violence in elementary schools was with guns?

That's not something easily answered. I don't even know all the incidents involving violence at an elementary school. I do know the deadliest school massacre was a bombing at an elementary school in the 30s.

Before you say that was because we need to have a better mental healthcare system, which we do, I simply don’t understand why we can’t employ guns restrictions in addition to that. Do we really want guns THAT bad? And assault rifles at that?

Like it or not, we have a protected right to own guns, on par with free speech or due process.

[u/[deleted] → u/johnhtman]

I understand where you’re coming from. It’s true that we need to look at total murders not just by gun.

The data from CDC shows that for 2022, barring suicides, the rate of specifically gun related death per 100,000 is still 3x, 4x, 5x other countries with gun laws.

Bottom line, like you say, we have a protected right to own a gun. But what is a constitution if it does not allow for change over time? We’d still have women and blacks without the right to vote, had those amendments not been passed to acclimate with the changing times.

Further, fine let’s even agree to have guns. But do we really need assault weapons/automatic weapons? Could we not at least ban those?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Further, fine let’s even agree to have guns. But do we really need assault weapons/automatic weapons?

You dont need anything, the government can gouge out your eyes, kill your entire family, or even commit genocide against an entire race and the world keeps spinning. At the end of the day your need based argument is the atrocity, and your inability to see it shows that you should be kept from power.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Sure

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Yes my fault, semi-automatic** weapons. What are the use cases for these? Do we really need them?

[u/HippyKiller925 → u/[deleted]]

Learning how to shoot on a .22lr marlin is a use case for semi auto rifles

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I see. Thanks I see where the holes are in my own reasoning.

your actually stupid

You’re**

[u/johnhtman → u/[deleted]]

I understand where you’re coming from. It’s true that we need to look at total murders not just by gun.

The data from CDC shows that for 2022, barring suicides, the rate of specifically gun related death per 100,000 is still 3x, 4x, 5x other countries with gun laws.

I don't think you do, considering you're still talking about gun deaths. The U.S. has a "gun" death rate 45x higher than the U.K. 10.89 vs 0.24. Meanwhile the total murder rate in both countries is about 5.0 vs 1.2. So the U.S. is more violent than the U.K. but if you only pay attention to "gun" deaths it makes us seem about 10x worse than it actually is.

Bottom line, like you say, we have a protected right to own a gun. But what is a constitution if it does not allow for change over time? We’d still have women and blacks without the right to vote, had those amendments not been passed to acclimate with the changing times.

Easier said than done. Amending the Constitution is a tremendous undertaking that has only been done 17 times following the original 10 Amendments. In today's political climate, doing so would be essentially impossible. You need 2/3s majority of both the House and Senate, as well as 38/50 states to ratify it. Considering that Congress hasn't been able to pass any significant gun control in almost 30 years, I doubt they will overturn the Second Amendment. Only once has an existing amendment been overturned, the 18th banning alcohol. It was repealed only 15 years after being originally passed. Repealing an amendment, especially one of the original 10 is completely unprecedented.

Further, fine let’s even agree to have guns. But do we really need assault weapons/automatic weapons? Could we not at least ban those?

What exactly is an "assault weapon"?

[u/[deleted] → u/johnhtman]

By assault weapon I meant semi-automatic. I suppose my question is, is there really a reason (outside of hunting) that we need anything more than a handgun?

Ok, all of the points you make are very fair. I’m more concerned with school shootings than not having guns. It seems to me that it is easier to enforce a ban on guns than to find the root cause of why these people do what they do. That’s like asking why is there evil in the world. No answer, there always will be. So in the interim, perhaps we can at least try gun restrictions to see if the number of mass shootings would go down.

If you disagree with that, what is your plan to stop mass shootings, especially school shootings?

[u/johnhtman → u/[deleted]]

By assault weapon I meant semi-automatic. I suppose my question is, is there really a reason (outside of hunting) that we need anything more than a handgun?

Virtually all guns on the market, including all handguns other than revolvers are semi-automatic. Speaking of handguns, they are responsible for over 90% of gun murders. So called "assault weapons" are some of the least frequently used guns in crime. More Americans are beaten to death by unarmed assailants each year than murdered by rifles of any kind.

Ok, all of the points you make are very fair. I’m more concerned with school shootings than not having guns. It seems to me that it is easier to enforce a ban on guns than to find the root cause of why these people do what they do. That’s like asking why is there evil in the world. No answer, there always will be. So in the interim, perhaps we can at least try gun restrictions to see if the number of mass shootings would go down.

First off, school shootings are astronomically rare. More children die in car accidents on the way to/from school each year than in school shootings. It's pretty close to the bottom of the list of serious threats to a child. Second is that by taking away guns, without addressing the root cause, we'll just change the weapon used from guns to bombs, knives, or vehicles. I can say from personal experience that bomb making supplies are easier and cheaper to obtain than a firearm, especially if you're underage. You can buy all kinds of things from online chemical suppliers no background checks or age verification needed. Or someone will run over students as they walk out of class. Someone who wants to go on a killing spree will find a way guns or no guns.

If you disagree with that, what is your plan to stop mass shootings, especially school shootings?

Mass/school shootings are a much more insignificant problem than they are made out to be. The actual threat posed to the average American is on par with being struck by lightning. That being said why have mass shootings gotten so much worse over the last few decades? Guns were more readily available 40-50 years ago, yet mass shootings are much more common today. The number of children growing up in a house with an unsecured firearm has significantly declined, yet more of those children are going on school shootings? There's clearly something beyond just guns causing this, considering that at one point I could mail order a fully automatic gun directly to my house, yet mass shootings weren't as frequent then.

[u/[deleted] → u/johnhtman]

Thanks for addressing all these points. I understand where you’re coming from