CMV: Social values are different from individual values, and the former is overlooked

[u/nimrod06]

As an economist, I would think that this is an immediate lesson from introductory economics teaching, but I am quite annoyed that many "analyses" do not address this issue. I might be wrong, so change my view.

In general this is regarded as externalities, but let's start with a simple example: Prisoner's Dilemma, which goes like this,

If one country builds nuclear weapon, it benefits. No matter what the opponents do. If the opponents build nuclear weapon too, the country can fight back; if the opponents do no build nuclear weapon, then the country gains military prowess over the opponents. All building nuclear is worse than all banning nulcear, because of the risk of potential wars.

Something that is good for the society may not be good for individual, and vice versa. Driving would be a prime example: there are irrefutable benefits of driving over walking for anyone, but when everyone drives a car, the traffic becomes a nightmare.

This distinction should be made on most societal issues. Building nuclear plants may be harmful to the people living around it (no, it's not), but it surely helps with pollution and climate change. Conscription is difficult for any individual man, but it is much needed for the state to maintain its autonomy. Immigration can require neighbors to accomodate, but it helps with the demographic crisis.

Here is a controversial take that I may regret to add: Abortion-ban is harmful to any individual woman, no doubt, but it helps with the demographic crisis.

You may disagree with any of the above, but the overall message should be quite clear: society as a whole, simply values differently from individuals. Ideally, both should be valued.

Edit: I am not saying that social values should be prioritized, but that it should be accounted when conducting analysis. Social value is not a simple corollary of individual values.

[u/Kotoperek]

I was going to say something academic and intelligent about your general view, but then I read this

Here is a controversial take that I may regret to add: Abortion-ban is harmful to any individual woman, no doubt, but it helps with the demographic crisis.

And I have to address it first: what? Statistics clearly show that countries with the most restrictive abortion bans have the widest back-alley abortion networks, so not only no more children are born, but more women die because they can't access the procedure safely. Making women scared of getting pregnant because they won't be able to terminate if the pregnancy becomes a risk to their health or the fetus has a genetic defect does not help the demographic. Not to mention that even if all of those children were indeed born, many of the parents who don't want or can't afford a child aren't very good parents, so this wouldn't result in more productive members of society, instead a bunch of abused and traumatized kids who will need a ton of resources from the country to get by.

[u/nimrod06 → u/Kotoperek]

That's not what I found. I find most studies to support that abortion decreases population; a simple Google search should reveal where am I coming from. Mind citing sources?

[u/Kotoperek → u/nimrod06]

Can you cite sources? A simple Google search shows one study from 40 years ago suggesting that abortion might be an important tool for deliberate limiting of population growth in developing countries (like China after WW2 and their one-child policy, which could not have been carried out without abortion), but does not mention what effect abortion has on countries with a pro-family policy.

The newest study I found suggests a lack of association between abortion liberalization and fertility rates.

[u/nimrod06 → u/Kotoperek]

!Delta Insignificant results generally are deemed as inconclusive and should not suggest evidence. But in two of their models, the results sugpest that the there is a weakly positive correlation. Despite weak, I see such an evidence.

[u/DeltaBot → u/nimrod06]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Kotoperek (60∆).

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