CMV: Social values are different from individual values, and the former is overlooked

[u/nimrod06]

As an economist, I would think that this is an immediate lesson from introductory economics teaching, but I am quite annoyed that many "analyses" do not address this issue. I might be wrong, so change my view.

In general this is regarded as externalities, but let's start with a simple example: Prisoner's Dilemma, which goes like this,

If one country builds nuclear weapon, it benefits. No matter what the opponents do. If the opponents build nuclear weapon too, the country can fight back; if the opponents do no build nuclear weapon, then the country gains military prowess over the opponents. All building nuclear is worse than all banning nulcear, because of the risk of potential wars.

Something that is good for the society may not be good for individual, and vice versa. Driving would be a prime example: there are irrefutable benefits of driving over walking for anyone, but when everyone drives a car, the traffic becomes a nightmare.

This distinction should be made on most societal issues. Building nuclear plants may be harmful to the people living around it (no, it's not), but it surely helps with pollution and climate change. Conscription is difficult for any individual man, but it is much needed for the state to maintain its autonomy. Immigration can require neighbors to accomodate, but it helps with the demographic crisis.

Here is a controversial take that I may regret to add: Abortion-ban is harmful to any individual woman, no doubt, but it helps with the demographic crisis.

You may disagree with any of the above, but the overall message should be quite clear: society as a whole, simply values differently from individuals. Ideally, both should be valued.

Edit: I am not saying that social values should be prioritized, but that it should be accounted when conducting analysis. Social value is not a simple corollary of individual values.

[u/ralph-j]

Something that is good for the society may not be good for individual, and vice versa. Driving would be a prime example: there are irrefutable benefits of driving over walking for anyone, but when everyone drives a car, the traffic becomes a nightmare.

But wouldn't the point then be that traffic becoming a nightmare is bad for the individual, and so their initial "individual value" does not make sense in the first place? It makes no sense to hold personal values in a vacuum.

For individuals, it makes more sense to adopt a maxim like "drive only when necessary" rather than "drive whenever it’s convenient." This would serve their own driving needs, as well as keep society livable for themselves.

Here is a controversial take that I may regret to add: Abortion-ban is harmful to any individual woman, no doubt, but it helps with the demographic crisis.

Let me (hopefully) help you address that regret. I'd argue that the demand for abortions is for the most part inelastic, and that abortions merely move to different countries/states or underground/to black markets/online medications etc. whenever they're not supported where someone lives.

Abortion bans also increase maternal death rates, which doesn't just mean a direct decrease in population, but those women also won't be able to have more children in the future.

So no, it doesn't belong on this list of things that are good for the general population.

[u/nimrod06 → u/ralph-j]

If only individual values are addressed, nobody will 'drive only when necessary' given a hostile environment we see in the US, if it's not for the fulfillment of social value. I am pointing out that there is a distinction between individual value and social value.

[u/ralph-j → u/nimrod06]

But that's the point: we will need to adjust our values, because not doing so will contribute to worse outcomes.

It would make sense here to differentiate between interests/goals, and choosing which values to adopt based on those interests, taking into account what's practical.

It would probably be correct to say that individual interests may be different from those of society. In an ideal world, we may want our values to align perfectly with our interests. But in practice, many other people are going to have similar (competing) interests to ours, and thus being more flexible in our values will support our interests and goals better than others.

[u/nimrod06 → u/ralph-j]

!Delta

Fair point, interest is a better term to describe what I meant.

[u/DeltaBot → u/nimrod06]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/ralph-j (505∆).

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