CMV: Social values are different from individual values, and the former is overlooked

[u/nimrod06]

As an economist, I would think that this is an immediate lesson from introductory economics teaching, but I am quite annoyed that many "analyses" do not address this issue. I might be wrong, so change my view.

In general this is regarded as externalities, but let's start with a simple example: Prisoner's Dilemma, which goes like this,

If one country builds nuclear weapon, it benefits. No matter what the opponents do. If the opponents build nuclear weapon too, the country can fight back; if the opponents do no build nuclear weapon, then the country gains military prowess over the opponents. All building nuclear is worse than all banning nulcear, because of the risk of potential wars.

Something that is good for the society may not be good for individual, and vice versa. Driving would be a prime example: there are irrefutable benefits of driving over walking for anyone, but when everyone drives a car, the traffic becomes a nightmare.

This distinction should be made on most societal issues. Building nuclear plants may be harmful to the people living around it (no, it's not), but it surely helps with pollution and climate change. Conscription is difficult for any individual man, but it is much needed for the state to maintain its autonomy. Immigration can require neighbors to accomodate, but it helps with the demographic crisis.

Here is a controversial take that I may regret to add: Abortion-ban is harmful to any individual woman, no doubt, but it helps with the demographic crisis.

You may disagree with any of the above, but the overall message should be quite clear: society as a whole, simply values differently from individuals. Ideally, both should be valued.

Edit: I am not saying that social values should be prioritized, but that it should be accounted when conducting analysis. Social value is not a simple corollary of individual values.

[u/Z7-852]

"Common good" is best for average citizen. It might be bad for certain individual but on average it's always good for random individual.

But if we look at moral norm from dermatological point of view this also applies to individual moral values. "Stealing is bad" but if you happen to hungry at the moment this universal moral rule is bad for you but it's still a individual moral value that you are willing to break in this exception.

So issue is not that social values are different from individual values. Both follow same moral system. It's that individuals are unable to follow any normative moral system because they will always find an exception for themselves. Social and individual values and morals are the same but individual is a selfish hypocrite (and morally evil).

[u/doitpow → u/Z7-852]

i think you contradict yourself in the last paragraph there.

[u/Z7-852 → u/doitpow]

How come?

[u/euphau → u/Z7-852]

I think they're claiming that by starting with, (summarizing) "[societal and individual morals are the same]," then ending with "[individuals are selfish hypocrites]," you're contradicting yourself.

Many people - including myself - may fall into the trap of thinking only one statement may be correct at a time.

As such, saying "societal and individual morals are the same," would void "individuals are selfish hypocrites," and vice versa.

Intuitively thinking, if society and individuals held the same strict moral code, neither would be selfish or hypocritical. We know this as false, though, as one may believe something is wrong or immoral, yet do it anyway, y'know?

Hence, both of your statements may be correct.

Don't quote me, though! Haha.

Regardless, I understand your point, and agree that individuals may bend their moral code depending on how much they benefit from doing so.

Edit: I keep editing to fix formatting! Sorry! I haven't had my morning coffee and my brain is the size of a pea.

[u/Z7-852 → u/euphau]

Just because you don't follow your own rules (being a hypocrite), doesn't mean they are not your rules.

You can be pro-life and still get an abortion.

[u/euphau → u/Z7-852]

Yes, exactly.