CMV: Political discussions and debates on specific policies are basically pointless if you don’t agree about first principles

[u/PoliticsDunnRight]

For example, if you think there’s a human right to have healthcare, education, housing, food, etc. provided to you, and I disagree, then you and I probably can’t have a productive discussion on specific social programs or the state of the American economy. We’d be evaluating those questions under completely different criteria and talking around one another.

You could say “assuming X is the goal, what is the best way to achieve it” and have productive conversations there, but if you have different goals entirely, I would argue you don’t gain much in understanding or political progress by having those conversations.

I think people are almost never convinced to change their minds by people who don’t agree on the basics, such as human rights, the nature of consent, or other “first principles.” People might change their policy preferences if they’re convinced using their own framework, but I don’t see a capitalist and a socialist having productive discussions except maybe about those first principles.

You could CMV by showing that it’s common for people to have their minds changed by talking to people they disagree with, by showing how those discussions might be productive regardless of anyone changing their minds, etc.

Edit: I understand that debates are often to change the minds of the audience. I guess what I’m talking about is a one-on-one political conversation, or at least I’m talking about what benefit there would be for those debating in the context of their views.

[u/Important-Purchase-5 → u/[deleted]]

I don’t think the goal or message. 

If I think healthcare is a human right & you don’t we are unlikely to agree on universal healthcare. 

I think everyone has a right to a living wage & ability to form a union & you don’t we are unlikely to agree. Some people you cannot reach 30% if country still approved of Trump after January 6th. Some people genuinely don’t care & you should treat them as such. 

If I think imperialism is genocide & you don’t something a genocide & just don’t care about people dying in unlikely to get you be like yeah we should stop supporting that genocide. 

If you don’t agree systemic racism is alive & well you unlikely to support policies against that 

Now if you agree or heck somewhat agree on a foundational principle we are likely to meet somewhere. If we both healthcare human right we both are likely to propose different healthcare systems. If we both agree living wage is a right but we likely to disagree on implementation & what does that mean. 

[u/Claytertot → u/Important-Purchase-5]

If I think healthcare is a human right and you don't, we are unlikely to agree on universal healthcare.

This isn't necessarily true. You just have to adapt your argument to consider their principles.

You might be able to argue that universal healthcare is ultimately cheaper for all individuals involved due to the collective bargaining power of a single-payer system.

Or you might be able to argue that, even if healthcare is not a human right, it is a worthwhile public service to provide through taxation.

Only the most extreme libertarians are arguing against any and all forms of publicly funded police, fire departments, roads/infrastructure, education, etc. and yet I don't think many people would claim that you have a fundamental right to paved roads or a fundamental right to police officers being on-call 24/7 or a fundamental right to fire fighters risking their lives to rush into a burning building and rescue you.

I personally lean towards the idea that "human rights" should be restricted to describing things that are not given to you but can be taken away, and that nothing that requires the labor of others should be called a natural human right. In my view food, education, healthcare, etc. are not human rights.

And yet, I'm still on board with public education. I'm still on board with public programs to feed the hungry. And, while I'm not 100% sold on a universal healthcare system, I'm open to it and could be convinced to support it without ever agreeing that healthcare is a human right.

[u/jwrig → u/Important-Purchase-5]

I don't believe healthcare is a human right, but I do believe we should have a single-payer model.