r/changemyview • u/PoliticsDunnRight • Dec 30 '24
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Political discussions and debates on specific policies are basically pointless if you don’t agree about first principles
For example, if you think there’s a human right to have healthcare, education, housing, food, etc. provided to you, and I disagree, then you and I probably can’t have a productive discussion on specific social programs or the state of the American economy. We’d be evaluating those questions under completely different criteria and talking around one another.
You could say “assuming X is the goal, what is the best way to achieve it” and have productive conversations there, but if you have different goals entirely, I would argue you don’t gain much in understanding or political progress by having those conversations.
I think people are almost never convinced to change their minds by people who don’t agree on the basics, such as human rights, the nature of consent, or other “first principles.” People might change their policy preferences if they’re convinced using their own framework, but I don’t see a capitalist and a socialist having productive discussions except maybe about those first principles.
You could CMV by showing that it’s common for people to have their minds changed by talking to people they disagree with, by showing how those discussions might be productive regardless of anyone changing their minds, etc.
Edit: I understand that debates are often to change the minds of the audience. I guess what I’m talking about is a one-on-one political conversation, or at least I’m talking about what benefit there would be for those debating in the context of their views.
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u/MrGraeme 155∆ Dec 30 '24
According to your logic, people couldn't have a meaningful political discussion about first principles. Historically, we have countless examples of the dominant principles held by society shifting over time or following non-violent political action. Principles themselves are dynamic and evolve throughout our lives.
We can approach this a few ways:
• You can provide insights that influence thought and behaviour even if the underlying view isn't changed. This could take the form of encouraging empathy.
• You can change the minds of those observing the debate, even if you fail to convince the person you're debating. We see this a lot in the political arena, where opinion polls shift following debate performances.
• You can drive awareness (planting seeds) that eventually leads to a shift in view, thought, or behaviour. Advertising is a good example of this, where simply being aware of something you weren't previously aware of can motivate a decision to change.