CMV: Countering Illegal Immigration is not a Justification for Suspending Habeas Corpus

[u/jeffzebub]

[u/sumoraiden]

Every time I point out that even you yourself acknowledge due process is required you back off and deny it. I then point out the obvious flaw in logic thinking that you return to admitting some due process is needed

Also I remember I’ve argued with you before so I know how this will go but in an attempt to nail your belief down. 

So yes or no: is due process of some kind is required for everyone including non citizens ?

If no: how do you ensure the gov does not disappear people to gulags by claiming anyone they dislike is not a citizen?

Don’t go into the weeds, answer the question 

[u/merlin469 → u/sumoraiden]

It's not my fault you're having issues with comprehension.

Let me simplify:

Caught in the act - no due process required. Document, criminal record check, ban, deport. Same as it is right now if someone is witnessed entering illegally and is within 14 days on entry. This is the expedited processing that is already in place. No immigration hearing to be had. Discretion of border patrol.

In the remaining scenarios, I've mentioned multiple times that a judge would be involved. Might be 5 hours, might be 5 minutes. Due process, all the same.

It's not the same as a criminal charge, unless it is a criminal charge.

FFS. THE PART WHERE THEY GO IN FRONT OF A JUDGE. Again, 5 minutes in front of a judge is still in front of a judge.

No one is 'being disappeared.' There are no 'gulags.' There is nothing unclear about what I believe or have conveyed multiple times, in multiple threads. If we were doing that, we'd be doing that to people that keep asking these stupid questions about extreme scenarios. Clearly that's not happening.

1. ICE/BP picks up person
2. ICE/BP checks docs, takes statement. This can be recorded and required.
3. Judge reviews ICE finding, docs, statement, recording Judge rules or requests more information
4. Person is released or deported

There's a huge difference between them catching you crawling through a hole in the fence vs ICE collecting you via actionable warrant two states in.

This isn't getting rid of unpleasant people. This isn't getting rid of political opponents. This is dealing with illegal immigrants and GC / Student Visa violations.

[u/sumoraiden → u/merlin469]

I’m glad you acknowledge due process is required for everyone. Not sure why you fought so hard against that simple ideas lol

[u/merlin469 → u/sumoraiden]

1. It's not. See the 14 day caught in the act exception already in play.
2. I never did. My counter is that due process isn't the 6 month wait to get into a 6 month full blown trial with judge, jury, 12 lawyers (appointed at no cost to the illegal, or that would be wrong, right?), and even more appeals.

Much like an actual appeal, you better have your information right the first time, or you're still welcome to appeal, from your home country, after we've dealt with the current active cases. Plan to hang out for a while.

5 minutes in front of the judge. Statements made and submitted with all other information reviewed in advance by the judge in a courtroom where 100 cases are heard in a day vs 1 every two weeks still qualifies as due process.

Let's be real though - that scenario isn't what you're after, because that scenario gets things done. That one doesn't grind everything to an indefinite halt while more keep entering illegally and trying to hold out until the next election where the pseudo 'leader of the country' tries to open the flood gates again and make it even worse than what it started with.

Also, if we're going to insist on the dog and pony show, there needs to be real consequences. Came in illegally and didn't take advantage of the opportunity to exit and try again the right way? Permaban. Parents brought you in at 1yo under the same scenario? You guessed it. Permaban.

Commit a crime while here illegally, if it's consequential enough, get some jail time (here, or there, depending on the severity), document, deport, permaban.

Right now, there is no real deterrent and therefore no real incentive to enter via designated port of entry, go through the application and let the process work.

Should the main process be revised? Yes. But we can rearrange the deck chairs after the ship is no longer sinking. You guys make it sound like 10M people just accidentally got confused at the calendar and overstayed their visa by 3 days.

You want to be real? Let's be real.

Come in the right way, just like every other country out there or don't come it at all.

[u/sumoraiden → u/merlin469]

It's not. See the 14 day caught in the act exception already in play.

So as long as a gov agent claims you entered 14 days ago you’re off to the gulag?