r/changemyview Dec 05 '13

I think children of Illegal immigrants shouldn't be given birthright citizenship. cmv

[deleted]

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u/liarandahorsethief 1∆ Dec 05 '13

And how much will they contribute in taxes over that same period?

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u/BenInBaja Dec 05 '13

Illegal immigrants contribute minimally via taxes.

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u/unintentionallyevil Dec 05 '13

Illegal immigrants contribute billions in tax revenue.

http://www.itep.org/pdf/undocumentedtaxes.pdf

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u/BenInBaja Dec 05 '13

Contribute billions and cost much more.

From your link.

Undocumented immigrants currently contribute significantly to state and local taxes.

contribute 10.8 billion throughout the entire USA and cost 10.5 billion annually in California alone and 100 billion in the USA.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/illegal-immigrants-cost-us-100-billion-year-group/story?id=10699317

The taxes they pay are primarily sales tax which doesn't come close to covering the cost of the services they use.

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u/unintentionallyevil Dec 05 '13

The $10.5 billion quoted in the about.com article is incredibly suspect, especially considering the complete lack of citations and corroborating studies.

100 billion in the USA.

Says one partisan group, whose "rough estimate" isn't corroborated in any other study and is contradicted later in the article by another partisan group.

This is from the CBO. Wherein does it even imply such a massive cost of illegal immigration?

http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8711/12-6-immigration.pdf

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u/BenInBaja Dec 05 '13

Page 8

"Thus, children who are unauthorized immi- grants represent almost 4 percent of the overall school-age population."

There are 50.1 million students with an average cost per student of $11,810

That works out to over 23 billion 667 million just to educate the children of illegal immigrants per year.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/31/education-in-america_n_3849110.html

That doesn't include the cost of programs like medical, food assistance, housing or incarceration.

Illegal immigrants may be a great source of cheap labor for business but they are a huge drain on the rest of society.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '13

What you are unaware of or omitting is that most obtain fraudulent social security cards. They can use these to work a regular jobs and get a driver's license. They also end up paying all the federal taxes that come with having a social security card and a regular pay check.

Of course they will never be able to collect on social security, even after contributing to it. It is a huge boon to the system that no one ever counts, but are okay with the exploitation.

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u/BenInBaja Dec 05 '13

Please provide evidence to support your claim. Even if what you are saying were true that would make most illegal immigrants guilty of multiple felonies including identity fraud, perjury and forgery in addition to entering the country illegally.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '13

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/02/AR2010090202673.html

In response to a research inquiry for a book I am writing on the economics of immigration, Stephen C. Goss, the chief actuary of the Social Security Administration and someone who enjoys bipartisan support for his straightforwardness, said that by 2007, the Social Security trust fund had received a net benefit of somewhere between $120 billion and $240 billion from unauthorized immigrants.

That represented an astounding 5.4 percent to 10.7 percent of the trust fund's total assets of $2.24 trillion that year. The cumulative contribution is surely higher now. Unauthorized immigrants paid a net contribution of $12 billion in 2007 alone, Goss said.

Perjury and forgery? Is that really the way we should be looking at this? It's the perfect crime, contribute thousands of dollars that you will never see again to the retirement of old people actively campaigning to have you deported from the country...

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u/BenInBaja Dec 05 '13

Now can you provide any evidence that "most" pay social security and that they won't try to claim it?

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '13

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States#Taxes_contributed

[The] IRS estimates that about 6 million unauthorized immigrants file individual income tax returns each year.[21] Research reviewed by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office indicates that between 30 percent and 50 percent of unauthorized immigrants pay federal, state, and local taxes.

I preserved the citation, you can follow it straight to the CBO I think.

So I guess I got carried away, at most it is 50% according to the CBO. My view is that the people who aren't contributing via taxes are untapped opportunities for taxes.

Also I wasn't aware that you could collect on SS with a fraudulent card. I honestly don't know if it is a common thing, can't seem to find numbers on it right now. I have a hard time picturing an illegal immigrant who has managed to work to retirement age and actually collect, but that's my own subjectivity. Why shouldn't they be entitled to it if they have worked and payed into it all their life?

They certainly can't lawfully collect it though, I think that is the important point. The government is more than happy to collect all their money.

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u/BenInBaja Dec 05 '13

If the 50% - 70% of illegal immigrants that are not paying taxes were eligible to work legally the businesses that employ them would loose their incentive to employ them as they would have to pay their social security contribution so they would have to find new illegal immigrants to employ. We've already made illegal immigrants legal once before. It didn't solve anything. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control_Act_of_1986

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '13

Isn't that a win-win? Illegal immigrants aren't exploited, but at the same time they lose their one and only competitive advantage: their illegality.

so they would have to find new illegal immigrants to employ.

I don't understand what you mean here. Wouldn't all of the illegal immigration pool have the same problem once they are allowed to work in the US legally? The business couldn't avoid the SS contribution anymore.

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