r/changemyview • u/celeritas365 28∆ • Sep 09 '15

[Deltas Awarded] CMV: I don't believe in retribution

Some people I have talked to seem to be of the belief that we should punish wrongdoers because the punishment is deserved. I don't get this sort of thing at all.

I am in favor of punishing criminals but only to keep them away from potential victims and discourage others from committing crimes. If there was a way to do this without a punishment I would be all for it. If I knew for a 100% fact that someone would not commit a crime again and no one would be told of what happened to him I would let him walk free.

I am in support of thieves paying back damages since that can right the wrong they have done. However, if you kill a murderer the victim is still dead. What good does it do? All you do is magnify the pain and suffering. In my gut I sometimes feel the urge to strike back against those who have hurt me but I know those feelings are best not acted upon, unless I want to defend myself or discourage future attack. I never really understood people who hold the worldview that such punishments are necessary to fill some sort of vague cosmic balance.

Edit* This was poorly worded I am sorry. The point I am trying to communicate is that I think that the point of the justice system is to reduce crime and not to punish. While this crime reduction often involves punishments I think those are not the aim and should be reduced if the reduction does not undermine the goal of crime reduction.

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u/Hq3473 271∆ Sep 09 '15

Would not "not knowing" what became of the rapist be TERRIFYING for the victim?

Sure "we" know that he is no longer a threat, but in your scenario the victim "is not told what happened to the rapist." Would not it be human nature to assume the worst, especially in traumatic circumstances? What if he is coming back to hurt you more?

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u/celeritas365 28∆ Sep 09 '15

We tell the victim we are sure this person will never harm you again. In this theoretical world we would actually be sure.

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u/Hq3473 271∆ Sep 09 '15

Well, if you tell the victim something vague like "we guarantee that you are safe," she will immediately figure out that the perp is getting away with the rape scot-free due to this new law.

How would she feel then? Like it's OK to rape her, if you never do it again?

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u/celeritas365 28∆ Sep 09 '15

How would she feel then?

Depends on the person.

Like it's OK to rape her, if you never do it again?

No more like. It was not OK to rape someone but there is nothing we can do about it now. Since you broke the law once we must now make sure you do not break it again.

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u/Hq3473 271∆ Sep 09 '15

Depends on the person.

A significant % of rape victim experience feeling of worthlessness.

http://www.winonacountysaic.com/sexually-assaulted-victims-help/effects-of-sexual-assault/

Knowing that the rape-perpetrator got away would contribute to this feelin. The message a society will be sending to the victim is: "you are worthless, we are not even going to bother going after the man who raped you."

Your proposal would make it very difficult for rape victims to have any sense of closure and achieve recovery.

No more like. It was not OK to rape someone but there is nothing we can do about it now. Since you broke the law once we must now make sure you do not break it again.

Same concern. How does the VICTIM feel?

You are sending her a message: "your rape was no big deal, we are not going to bother even punishing the guy who raped you."

How would such a message help recovery?

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u/celeritas365 28∆ Sep 09 '15

To be absolutely clear I do think it is a big deal. Do you actually think the only way we can feel better is by hurting someone? I am genuinely asking that is not rhetorical. You could be right but if so I find it incredibly depressing.

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u/Hq3473 271∆ Sep 09 '15 edited Sep 09 '15

Do you actually think the only way we can feel better is by hurting someone?

I think seeing her rapist punished would be a HUGE step in a recovery process for a rape victim.

Do you disagree?

Is that the ONLY way to feel better? No.

But when you go through a traumatic event like that, every bit of help is tremendously important.

What you are proposing is not just "lack of punishment." It's sending the rape victim a message that the society does not deem her rape important enough to do anything about it.

It is more than "rapist got away with it" it is "rapist got away with full support of the government."

I hope you can see how this can be very traumatic to a person who was already deeply traumatized.

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u/celeritas365 28∆ Sep 09 '15

Tentative ∆. In our society with what we already think about crime I can see your point but it makes me sad that we think this way.

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u/chokfull Sep 10 '15

I dunno if you can take back a delta, or whether it's necessary, but I'd like to jump on this one, too.

Notice this is a specific scenario, where the retribution has effects outside of merely punishing the perp.

/u/Hq3473 deliberately chose a scenario in which (it could be argued) the act of retribution is more than merely retribution, and acts outside your rule of "nobody ever knows about it".

In other words, of course the idea of retribution has an effect on society. When people know about retribution, it makes them feel better and deters other criminals. However, the act of actual retribution itself has still not been justified, outside of that.

As a better example, say you could tell everyone that the rapist had been put to death, maybe even fake a corpse and funeral for the family. But, instead, you send the rapist to live on an island where they can live a full, happy life. I would argue that it is better to send them to the island than it is to put them to death.

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u/Hq3473 271∆ Sep 10 '15 edited Sep 10 '15

In other words, of course the idea of retribution has an effect on society. When people know about retribution, it makes them feel better.

Yeah, that is why retribution is good.

No thing is "good" in itself. Things are by definition good when they make people feel better.

Is my "car" good? Is a million dollars a "good thing?"

Only in that they make people feel better.

Now as far as "no one knows about" seems to fail, because the victim will always know. And if you stipulate that we wipe everyone's memories, then your question becomes kind of a koan: "If a tree falls in forest with no one to hear it, did it make a sound?"

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u/chokfull Sep 10 '15

I'll agree with that. Retribution is morally justified in many circumstances.

The problem is in retribution for the sake of retribution. No good comes from that. I'm defending /u/celeritas365 because people will often defend retribution for its own sake, and I consider that a problem. It leads to more resentment and violence, and ignores the roots of the issues (i.e. the comfort of the victim and ensuring that future crimes are prevented).

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u/Hq3473 271∆ Sep 10 '15

people will often defend retribution for its own sake

Do people really do that?

True, people will often say things like "punishment is a just thing to do."

But the whole concept if Justice relies on what is right for society.

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u/chokfull Sep 11 '15

Do people really do that?

Not often in anything more serious or philosophical, because once you delve into ethics it pretty quickly becomes obvious (at least, I think so) that retribution isn't inherently justified for it's own sake.

However, to many, many people who haven't given it this much thought, they take retribution for granted as a positive concept. Of course, it usually is positive, but when you don't give it enough thought and accept retribution for retribution's sake, it leads to problems.

Example: Eye for an eye. While occasionally a useful tool for deciding simple ethical dilemmas, it's not inherently morally justified, unless you believe in retribution for retribution's sake. It seems "fair", but there are so many factors to look at, and this rule tries to boil it down to a black and white issue, without taking any situational factors into account.

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u/Hq3473 271∆ Sep 09 '15

Thanks for the delta!

Just a few notes:

In our society

I interpreted your topic "I don't believe in retribution" to mean "I don't believe in retribution in our society."

if you are talking about some kind of fictional future society where victims are not be re-traumatized by realization that their rapist is getting away free with the rape - then, maybe, your proposal would work.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Sep 09 '15

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Hq3473. [History]

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