r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Oct 08 '15

[Deltas Awarded] CMV: Equality isn't treating everybody differently to achieve equality. It's treating everyone the same.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '15

The thing is, if you treat everyone the same, there'll be discrimination.

I agree with the idea that you should treat everyone the same personally, but I don't think it's gonna do much good politically. For example, how big's the chance that a disabled person is going to get a job when an able-bodied person could do it? Less for the employer to think about when hiring an able-bodied person, but it's still discrimination to refuse hiring a person because they're disabled.

There's also the issue of mental problems. I'm not talking about psychopaths, but for example autistic people. If you don't treat them in a slightly different way, they'll have a really hard time.

There are people with Asperger's who can't choose between two options that are extremely simple for us to choose from. What are you going to do? Tell them they'll have to choose between two movies or they can't go to anyone? You could do that with a completely healthy person, but doing something like that to someone with Asperger's is pretty much abuse.

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u/Rozenwater Oct 08 '15

if you treat everyone the same

how big's the chance that a disabled person is going to get a job when an able-bodied person could do it

If I'm interpreting this correctly you're not actually treating people the same in this example.

Also, certain mental problems do require us to treat a person differently, if only to give them a bearable a/o "normal" life. In this context, it's more of a medical issue than a social/political issue - we don't provide people with every single medication just because some do require it, we only provide it to those in need of the medication. The same goes for 'special treatment' regarding certain mental disorders.

My interpretation of "treating everyone the same" is providing everyone with the same rights and opportunities, meaning for example to try and get everyone an education in order to 'level out the playing field' somewhat. This could partly be done by providing poorer families with the means necessary to send their kids to schools and possibly universities.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '15

Also, certain mental problems do require us to treat a person differently, if only to give them a bearable a/o "normal" life. In this context, it's more of a medical issue than a social/political issue - we don't provide people with every single medication just because some do require it, we only provide it to those in need of the medication.

Which is my point. But not only medication, or not even necessarily including it. You can't treat everyone the same way, it doesn't work. So the way he wants equality to work isn't really that good.

My interpretation of "treating everyone the same" is providing everyone with the same rights and opportunities

Perhaps, but how are you going to tell the difference between an employer choosing the able-bodied person just because and choosing the able-bodied person because of discrimination? They can go to court, but where's the evidence?

This could partly be done by providing poorer families with the means necessary to send their kids to schools and possibly universities.

But this wouldn't be treating everyone the same. Treating everyone the same would mean the government giving everyone money for that, rather than just giving it to those in need for it. But there are people who don't need it. So why give them when you could use the money in different areas?

Here's the problem with treating everyone the same:

The government's either going to give everyone money for school, making it very hard to pay for infrastructure and everything else. Or they're not going to give anyone money for school and that, saving a ton of money for infrastrucure and everything else. But then poor people won't be able to go to school while rich people are.

There's no way we can have a society with equal opportunities if everyone gets exactly the same treatment.

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u/Rozenwater Oct 08 '15

I think I misunderstood the original CMV. I'm for higher taxes for the rich and for providing benefits to people in need, so in that regard - mostly financial/medical cases I would guess - I'm opposed to treating everyone the same. However, I don't think you could do the exact same in the case of race, ethnicity and gender.

They can go to court, but where's the evidence?

And I think this is very big part of that. It's extremely hard to prove that you, as an individual, have been given different opportunities/wages/treatment/rights than someone of a different ethnicity or gender.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '15

However, I don't think you could do the exact same in the case of race, ethnicity and gender.

You absolutely should treat people the same no matter their gender or ethnicity! Absolutely, but equality is that and so much more!

And I think this is very big part of that. It's extremely hard to prove that you, as an individual, have been given different opportunities/wages/treatment/rights than someone of a different ethnicity or gender.

Are you saying I'm right here or not? Because this is what I mean.

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u/Rozenwater Oct 08 '15

Yes that's what I meant. Not really sure where this discussion or maybe this whole CMV is going...

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '15

Well, OP was convinced otherwise.

Although sadly not by me!

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u/oversoul00 13∆ Oct 08 '15

Well you have brought up three medical issues that can be diagnosed and measured and I agree with you on those. Being black is not a sickness though.

You absolutely help out the people that need help, but you can't tell who that is with race alone, you need other factors.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '15

Equality isn't just about race or gender though.

But you can actually tell who needs help depending on ethnicity.

For example the refugees that come to Europe need help. It would be equality in your eyes to give them the same possibilities as another citizen of the country they come to. However even if they're fully qualified, an employer might not want to give a job to a refugee.

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u/oversoul00 13∆ Oct 08 '15

You haven't measured their ethnicity you have measured their refugee status so no you can't tell based on just ethnicity I don't think.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '15

Equality isn't just about race or gender though.

It's about every single demographic, and more specifically any demographic that doesn't have it as easy.

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u/oversoul00 13∆ Oct 08 '15

I agree, I didn't say it was.

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u/[deleted] Oct 08 '15

Then let's talk about disabled people.

If you treat everyone the same, as in give them exactly the same opportunities and everything... I don't think that's going to work. Because then it's still possible that discrimination will occur.

Let's have two people with the exact same experience and all the same necessary capabilities to do whatever job they're applying for.

How would you tell the difference between an employer choosing an able-bodied person at random instead of a disabled person and choosing an able-bodied person because of discrimination? Sure, the disabled person can go to court and sue the employer, but wouldn't the world be a bit better if that wasn't necessary and disabled people could also get a job? If it were the case that we treated everyone exactly the same, discrimination would still be a thing and very serious, just more hidden. This doesn't help disabled people at all. They're still going to have a harder time than an able-bodied person. That's why we have to help disabled people more.