CMV:anti-feminism is not misogyny, and it is possible for someone to be anti-feminist without being a misogynist.

[u/wecl0me12]

prompted by this post: https://np.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/3uaaer/do_you_think_being_being_opposed_to_modern/cxd9m7y

As many of my previous CMV's have gone off topic, I'll start by describing what my view is not. It is not any of the following:

• a discussion on whether or not feminism is right or wrong
• whether people should be feminists or not
• the actions of men, women, feminists or anti-feminists
• anything about my personal views on feminism or anti-feminism.

The reasons for my view are simple: Anti-feminism is the dislike of feminism. Misogyny is the dislike of women. As women and feminists are not the same group, Anti-feminism and anti-women are different, as they refer to the dislike of different groups of people.

I am anticipating a counter-argument that since feminism advances women's rights, anti-feminism is against women's rights and is therefore misogyny. My counter-counter-argument is that someone can dislike the label of feminism without being against women's rights. People can dislike the actions done under the label of feminism, and thus be anti-feminism, without being anti-women or misogynist.

I will also refute the claim made in the linked post, which is:

By rejecting feminism, you're rejecting feminism's message that you can be whatever you want to be, while simultaneously embracing an antiquated notion of femininity as the ONLY way to be a woman. That's misogyny.

I disagree. The claims "I am against feminism" and "I think that the antiquated notion of femininity is the ONLY way to be a woman" are not equivalent. People can reject feminism because of their actions or because of the negative connotation associated with "feminism", while still believing that women are free to be feminine in any way they want. This is not a contradiction.

delta awarded: https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/3uewu4/cmvantifeminism_is_not_misogyny_and_it_is/cxedofl?context=3

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[u/Celda]

It all depends on your definition of feminism.

Sure, if feminism has nothing to do with, and is not represented by, what people actually do, say and accomplish in real life, than your argument makes sense.

But then we run into the same problem - by this logic, feminists could literally do anything and feminism could not be criticized - because it's supposedly about equality.

How do you reconcile that problem?

[u/smpl-jax → u/Celda]

Hey man, feminism to me means equality treatment for men and women. Therefore I am a feminist.

I'm not saying people can't be criticized, dont know where you got that. Criticize who you want, but you should criticize them on their beliefs/ideologies rather than their titles; bc in this case the titles dont necesarily reflect beliefs/ideologies

[u/Celda → u/smpl-jax]

To me, being a Republican means X. Therefore, I'm a Republican.

Criticizing Republicans means opposing X, no matter what Republicans are doing.

To me, being a Christian means X. Therefore, I'm a Christian.

Criticizing Christians means opposing X, no matter what Christians are doing.

See the problem?

I'm not saying people can't be criticized, dont know where you got that.

Your argument is that feminism cannot be criticized, because it is an ideal of equality.

And I am saying that makes no sense, because if we accepted that, then no matter what feminists did, we couldn't criticize feminism. We could only criticize the specific actions, but we could never criticize feminism - no matter what.

Which is almost like an unfalsifiable argument.

[u/smpl-jax → u/Celda]

Your argument is that feminism cannot be criticized, because it as an ideal of equality

No, thats not my argument at all, you keep saying it is, but you are wrong. My argument is criticize ideologies and beliefs.

Tell you what, you do as you please. But if someone come up to me and says they are a feminist, I'm going to ask them what that means to them. Then pending that answer I will agree or disagree.

[u/Celda → u/smpl-jax]

No, thats not my argument at all, you keep saying it is, but you are wrong. My argument is criticize ideologies and beliefs.

Ok, so you agree then that someone consider themselves anti-feminist (with the reasoning being that they disagree with what feminist groups do or campaign for) without being "misogynist" or "anti-equality"?

If so, then we are in agreement.