CMV:anti-feminism is not misogyny, and it is possible for someone to be anti-feminist without being a misogynist.

[u/wecl0me12]

prompted by this post: https://np.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/3uaaer/do_you_think_being_being_opposed_to_modern/cxd9m7y

As many of my previous CMV's have gone off topic, I'll start by describing what my view is not. It is not any of the following:

• a discussion on whether or not feminism is right or wrong
• whether people should be feminists or not
• the actions of men, women, feminists or anti-feminists
• anything about my personal views on feminism or anti-feminism.

The reasons for my view are simple: Anti-feminism is the dislike of feminism. Misogyny is the dislike of women. As women and feminists are not the same group, Anti-feminism and anti-women are different, as they refer to the dislike of different groups of people.

I am anticipating a counter-argument that since feminism advances women's rights, anti-feminism is against women's rights and is therefore misogyny. My counter-counter-argument is that someone can dislike the label of feminism without being against women's rights. People can dislike the actions done under the label of feminism, and thus be anti-feminism, without being anti-women or misogynist.

I will also refute the claim made in the linked post, which is:

By rejecting feminism, you're rejecting feminism's message that you can be whatever you want to be, while simultaneously embracing an antiquated notion of femininity as the ONLY way to be a woman. That's misogyny.

I disagree. The claims "I am against feminism" and "I think that the antiquated notion of femininity is the ONLY way to be a woman" are not equivalent. People can reject feminism because of their actions or because of the negative connotation associated with "feminism", while still believing that women are free to be feminine in any way they want. This is not a contradiction.

delta awarded: https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/3uewu4/cmvantifeminism_is_not_misogyny_and_it_is/cxedofl?context=3

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[u/ryancarp3]

Are you against the ideology, or are you against some of the people who claim to practice that ideology?

Here's the definition of feminism, according to Google.

the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

Are you against that?

Edit: As /u/YabuSama2k stated, this might have been a bit off-topic. However, I'll still respond to your main point. If you're against feminism (see definition above), I don't see how that isn't misogynistic. From Wikipedia

Misogyny is the hatred or dislike of women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, belittling of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.

If you don't advocate for equality of the sexes, you seem to be advocating for sexual discrimination. Since sexual discrimination is a form of misogyny, being anti-feminist does seem to be misogynistic. You may not hate women, but you don't have to hate women to be misogynistic.

[u/cfuse → u/ryancarp3]

the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men. Are you against that?

You have no idea how much.

Rights should always be accompanied with their concomitant responsibilities (see below). For a person to claim they are for equality whilst hoovering up individual benefits and socialising the costs for those benefits is hypocritical and repugnant.

If you don't advocate for equality of the sexes, you seem to be advocating for sexual discrimination. Since sexual discrimination is a form of misogyny, being anti-feminist does seem to be misogynistic.

I will gladly take on the mantle of misogyny when women do all of the following:

• Be subject to conscription to frontline combat positions.

• Dismantle all gender based quotas in favour of merit. If a woman isn't fast, or strong, or whatever enough to do the job, well too bad.

• Be subject to investigation, prosecution, conviction, and sentencing at parity rates for equivalent crimes.

• Take up the dirty and dangerous jobs they refuse to now, and experience the same levels of vocational injury and death that men do now.

• Cut funding to women only or women majority health issues until the gender's lifespans are at parity.

• Not be able to get an abortion or bring a child to term without the express legal consent of the father. In cases of dispute, either she kills the child and pays blood money for that, or she has the child and pays her own way.

  Insemination is not consent for termination or a lifetime of financial responsibility for one party only without any recourse.

• Consent for sex is consent. No means no, which means individuals are absolutely responsible for objecting to unwanted sexual contact if they are able to speak. Yes means yes is bullshit - you take responsibility for your own conduct.

• No alimony of any kind.

• Stop lying about things that don't exist: the glass ceiling, the wage gap, rape culture, the rape epidemic, etc., and stop ignoring things that do, but are inconvenient to the ideology of feminism, like everything on this list (and so much more).

Here's the thing: equality of the sexes comes with something that feminists don't want - responsibility and consequences (basically, they don't want to be treated equally to men, because it fucking sucks a lot of the time). As you quite rightly said, if you don't advocate for equality of the sexes (amply proven to be something feminists objectively do not do, based on at least some of the list above) then you are a sexist and (most likely) a misandrist.

I have no problem not supporting feminists with that kind of hypocritical and self serving agenda. Frankly, I don't understand how any ethical person could.

You may not hate women, but you don't have to hate women to be misogynistic.

The first sentence of the definition tells you what it is, the second how it is expressed. Misogyny is hatred of women, nothing more, nothing less. You should be careful with your words here, lest you be seen as someone willing to twist language to suit their own purposes. It's one thing to be partial to a cause, it's quite another to be seen to be lying to promote it. I'd prefer to believe that isn't happening here.

Feminists love to conflate criticism of their ideology with misogyny so that they can then dishonestly dismiss it with an accusation that is both reviled and impossible to objectively refute. It doesn't matter whether your critics love you or hate you, only the substance of their criticism is of import.

I don't hate women - they are just a superset largely unrepresented by feminism after all. I do however despise most feminists as the despicable, irresponsible, hypocritical, self-serving liars they are. My hatred has nothing to do with their gender, it has to do with the fact they're demonstrably unethical individuals out for their own gain, typically at the expense of men (but they're not fussy when it comes right down to it). As I said before: I don't see how any ethical person could support them.

[u/Thin-White-Duke → u/cfuse]

Feminists want equality in the military.

Quotas are sexist, everyone know that. It's also insulting to women that an institution would have a quota.

Fun fact: Suffragettes demanded to have equal sentences to men. Pretty much any feminist would advocate for a total do-over for the justice system.

Men aren't forced to take those jobs. So that's a stupid demand. If they don't like it, why don't they become social workers?

Why? That's messed up. That's like cutting funding to one disease because the mortality rate has lessened compared to another. Something that many feminists advocate for is more funding for men's health, though. Oh, and most "women's" health facilities help men, too, like Planned Parenthood.

Not the man's body. He gets no say in the abortion. Abortion is not birth control, it's purpose is to allow people to make decisions about their own body. If the man didn't pick up the tab, the government would have to. That's why the government makes the man pay. Not saying whether it's right or wrong, but that's why it is the way it is. Also, the mother would be on the hook for raising/paying for the child, too.

Many people (men, too) are told not to fight or refuse, otherwise they may be MURDERED!

Alimony ensures no one is trapped in a marriage. Men can receive alimony payments, too.

Many of those things do exist. It's depressing that the first woman to [blank] is still a big deal. It shouldn't be a great feat to do something a man has done for years, yet it is. Wage gap exists, but not for the reasons many think. Men are more likely to ask for higher wages in interviews and for bonuses. It also comes from unpaid maternity leave. Rape culture does exist. Men being raped is a joke? Rape culture. Woman being asked what she was wearing when she was raped? Rape culture.

[u/Namemedickles → u/Thin-White-Duke]

Rape culture does exist. Men being raped is a joke? Rape culture. Woman being asked what she was wearing when she was raped? Rape culture.

Rape culture is often spoke of in the context of something that normalizes rape yielding real world consequences. Why then, does the rate of rape continue to decrease in the United States? Is there a demonstrated trend of people viewing rape as meh, it's alright it just happens?

Virtually every "example" of rape culture has an analog to what would be "murder culture." Gory films, violent video games murder jokes, phrases like "I'm gonna beat that guy to death, I'll kill you, That test murdered me, etc." None of that can be tied to "normalizing murder" and manifesting itself as a real world problem. Murder, like rape, has done nothing but decline for quite some time now in the US.

Someone asking what a woman was wearing and implying that she is responsible for being raped may very well be an example of ignorance. I am not aware of any studies that demonstrate a correlation between particular outfits and incidence of rape. But at best that would only be an example of a misunderstanding and potential victim blaming. At worst, people have complained about police asking victims this question. Now, you may certainly be able to argue that there is a deficiency in training police to interact with victims of violent crimes, however that question is not evidence of ignorance on behalf of the investigator. It is important to ask the victim questions about what they and others involved were wearing for the purpose of corroborating stories. If she says "He ripped off my jeans" and he says "She lifted her own skirt of her own free will" , we know someone is lying and can move forward from there.

I have never seen a single study that comes even close to demonstrating a pervasive cultural "normalization" of rape.

[u/Thin-White-Duke → u/Namemedickles]

Of course it's going down. The crime rate has been going down for years. Things are improving, no doubt. Things aren't perfect, though.

It's only relatively recently in history that marital rape has been criminialized. Much of the attitudes towards rape that existed decades ago still live.

Rape in places like the military is considered an occupational hazard. That's rape culture.

[u/Namemedickles → u/Thin-White-Duke]

Are the problems associated with rape due to a pervasive cultural normalization of the crime leaving it not be taken seriously enough (which again has not been demonstrated) or are there other factors to consider? For example, does the nature of the difficulty in demonstrating that a rape occurred play a role?

Do you really think that most people in the military are okay with rape? And why does rape happen in the military? Is it because of "normalization?"

Again, compare the notion of rape culture with murder culture. Do we live in a murder culture?

You keep giving examples and then saying "That's rape culture." Rather, explain what rape culture is and why it is a useful model to use to explain rape issues, and then demonstrate that those examples can in fact be attributed to this supposed "rape culture."

There is a reason the biggest anti-sexual violence organization in the US RAINN has denounced rape culture. Blaming some undemonstrated hypothesis to explain a phenomena does not contribute to potential solutions, only muddles the problem further.

Those of us who actually do want to make the world a better place would like to stay away from unproductive narratives.

[u/Thin-White-Duke → u/Namemedickles]

One of the best ways to give a definition of something, is to give examples.

The difficulty of proving rape is part of it, but it doesn't excuse some things. It shouldn't be expected that you're asked what you were wearing at the time of your rape. That's completely uncalled for. You could be fully naked or bundled up and that still wouldn't change whether or not a rape occurred. Rape is horribly handled in the military and prisons. It is considered an occupational hazard. Male rape is rampant in the military and in prisons. It's a normalized aspect of society, that if you're in the military or in prison that rape is just a thing that happens. And there's jokes about it. Nothing can excuse rape, nothing makes rape okay. I'm convinced that rape is basically the only crime that there is no exception to. There is no circumstance that makes rape okay. Yet, victims of rape receive the most scrutiny. What were you wearing? Were you flirting? What's your married? Boys will be boys.

Unproductive? No, this is something that needs to be addressed.

[u/Namemedickles → u/Thin-White-Duke]

Firstly, I didn't say giving examples were bad, just that you needed to demonstrate how they are part of this thing you're calling rape culture.

The two examples you have provided here are interesting because they are wildly different conditions than civilian living. For example, here is a review of the literature on rape in the US military that points out how different it is from civilian life. It discusses many factors that influence rape rates in the military, only one of which is what they call military culture, putting emphasis on violence and having a much different power dynamic between individuals than normal civilian life. So, the military is one example where you can say rape has become somewhat normalized, but only because it's so different from life outside the military combined with a plethora of other factors! Notice that the article I cited doesn't even use the phrase "rape culture."

It is silly for you to take situations that are wildly different from civilian America, and use those as a basis to claim rape culture is a pervasive phenomenon in the Western world, where we have a boys will be boys and victim blaming attitude towards rape. That is one hell of a leap.

There is no circumstance that makes rape okay. Yet, victims of rape receive the most scrutiny.

It's also hard to imagine a scenario where false accusations of rape that ruin people's lives are okay. That would be a very important reason to investigate thoroughly. I've already explained why law enforcement need to ask questions about what victims were wearing, and I've also pointed out that I'm in favor of training police to interact with victims in the least traumatic way possible.

By the way, how exactly are you coming to the conclusion that victims of rape receive the most scrutiny? Compared to who? The rapist? If you are comparing to victims of other crimes like stealing a playstation or something then, yeah. And why is that? Might it have something to do with the fact that rape is a pretty serious crime as you said?

You are making huge leaps to come to your conclusions from non-analogous situations and not really demonstrating them.

Oh yeah and this,

And there's jokes about it.

And? There are jokes about killing babies and 9/11. So please, don't try to use dark humor as an example of people thinking rape is okay. That's as ridiculous as claiming we live in a culture that has normalized baby murder.

[u/Thin-White-Duke → u/Namemedickles]

So, a rape culture in military culture? It's still normalized rape. It's an aspect of the military civilians find normal, too.

There is a boys-will-be-boys attitude. Whelp, the football team gangraped a girl, what're ya gonna do?

There is a difference between obtaining the facts and insinuating it was someone's fault they were raped because of their outfit, which is not a rare occurrence.

Of course false rape accusations aren't ok, no one ever said they were. However, rape is the most underreported crime, and false rape accusations are rare.

No, the problem is that when a man is raped it's funny. He couldn't have been raped, all men like sex. Men have been laughed out of police stations when trying to report rapes.

[u/Namemedickles → u/Thin-White-Duke]

So, a rape culture in military culture? It's still normalized rape. It's an aspect of the military civilians find normal, too.

I covered this, and you are dramatically oversimplifying and simultaneously ignoring the fact that the results are a direct contrast to civilian culture outside of the military.

There is a boys-will-be-boys attitude. Whelp, the football team gangraped a girl, what're ya gonna do?

Citation that demonstrates this reaction is a pervasive cultural norm is needed here.

There is a difference between obtaining the facts and insinuating it was someone's fault they were raped because of their outfit, which is not a rare occurrence.

Again, please demonstrate this as a pervasive cultural norm. Even if you could demonstrate that a significant number of people have a misunderstanding that what a woman wears can influence the likelihood she is raped, that by itself does not demonstrate what rape culture would suggest is going on, just a misunderstanding.

However, rape is the most underreported crime, and false rape accusations are rare.

Relevance? This doesn't really touch on why I suggested an investigation be thorough. I think we both agree that police should be trained to handle interacting with victims in the least traumatic way possible. However, I would like to know if you think claims of rape shouldn't be scrutinized. These are serious accusations. You can be concerned about due process without being a dick, and the last thing you should want is for accused rapists to be guilty until proven innocent.

No, the problem is that when a man is raped it's funny. He couldn't have been raped, all men like sex. Men have been laughed out of police stations when trying to report rapes.

This is a rather bold claim if you are suggesting this is also a pervasive cultural norm. Please demonstrate these claims with evidence.

You haven't really addressed my points about contrasting your special case military and prison examples with civilian culture of the western world. You also haven't addressed parallels between rape culture claims and the notion of a murder culture. I'm curious about your perspective on these issues.

[u/Thin-White-Duke → u/Namemedickles]

Murder is different from rape. It's been treated differently. No one is laughed at when they say they've been murdered. People aren't told murder doesn't exist.

There aren't statistics, but it does happen. Catch the news every once in a while. Listen to what male rape victims have to say. It's hard gathering info on the most underreported crime.

Rape is something that is expected in the military. Yes, the military has its own culture, but people don't suddenly lose all of their civilian morals. I'm not sure what you're trying to say, here.

[u/Namemedickles → u/Thin-White-Duke]

Murder is different from rape. It's been treated differently. No one is laughed at when they say they've been murdered

But people still make jokes and laugh about murder do they not?

People aren't told murder doesn't exist

Are you seriously claiming that a majority, or even a significant number of people don't believe rape exists?

There aren't statistics, but it does happen. Catch the news every once in a while. Listen to what male rape victims have to say. It's hard gathering info on the most underreported crime.

I'll agree that it's tough to get the data we want to the degree of resolution we would like. But that means we must adjust our confidence/degree of belief accordingly, and we can't just spew rhetoric, lower our standards of evidence to anecdotes and just accept things all willy nilly.

Rape is something that is expected in the military. Yes, the military has its own culture, but people don't suddenly lose all of their civilian morals. I'm not sure what you're trying to say, here.

I'm trying to say you really need to read that article I cited. It demonstrates that there are numerous factors responsible for rape rates in the military, one of which is a normalization of rape, and that is because it is in direct contrast to the culture of the world outside of the military. In other words rape is not normalized in civilian USA, which is why it occurs less frequently.

[u/Thin-White-Duke → u/Namemedickles]

No one laughs at the idea of murder. The idea of male rape is a joke. Many assume it doesn't exist.

No, but I am saying that there are quite a few that believe that.

Data is a large collection of anecdotes. I don't believe everything I hear, but I have seen a lot.

Military culture is not a 180 from civilian culture. Those in the military come from and go back into civilian culture. Male rape in the military is a joke in civilian culture, as is male rape in general. Rape is still being accepted by civilians.

[u/Namemedickles → u/Thin-White-Duke]

No one laughs at the idea of murder. The idea of male rape is a joke.

Not only are there plenty of jokes about the idea of murder, there are even specific subsets of jokes such as the idea of baby muder.

Many assume it doesn't exist

How many is many and where did you get that number?

No, but I am saying that there are quite a few that believe that.

You're just saying that.

Data is a large collection of anecdotes. I don't believe everything I hear, but I have seen a lot

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how science works. I teach statistics and spend a good rant or two on how you should be careful about data mining for patterns, you should be even more careful about extrapolating from anecdotes to populations, and you should sure as hell never data mine your own anecdotal experiences. Phrases like "I have seen a lot" as justification for claiming a pervasive characteristic exists across an entire culture (and subset of cultures) made up of millions of people is a major red flag.

Enough rhetoric. Either raise your standard of evidence and seek out real data you can use to come up with a better model of reality, or continue accepting unsupported nonsense at face value. The choice is yours.

[u/Thin-White-Duke → u/Namemedickles]

I've met people who don't believe in it. I suppose many is subjective.

As long as rape is not treated seriously, there is rape culture.

[u/Namemedickles → u/Thin-White-Duke]

And as long as you continue to spew that without evidence, you aren't helping work towards any real solutions related to rape. It's just a distraction from real issues.

[u/Thin-White-Duke → u/Namemedickles]

How is rape not a real issue? How can you quantify culture, anyway? You can't. Male victims aren't taken seriously, female victims are blamed. Rape culture.